Capital Punishment...

[LittlePilgrim]

Hi guys. This is a discussion that was started on another Christan forum, and I am curious as to what everyone here thinks.

Is the death penalty right and ethical, Biblically speaking, when executed by God's agent of justice on this earth, IE, the government? Or is it not? Is it akin to abortion?

[Shammu]

Alot of the old timers here know my views on this subject already.

Contraception against Gods will

Some where on the forum is this very subject.
Bob

[LittlePilgrim]

But how does this topic relate to abortion Dreamweaver? Could you, perhaps, explain to me?

[Frederic Dalton]

My humble opinion is that if someone disregards society's rules by comitting a heinous crime, that person no longer deserves to live in society and forfeits his right to live.

That may be, but I believe that humans are not qualified to make this judgement. Romans 3:9-20 is relevant here; just because we spread the Word of God doesn't give us the right to judge who has done right and who has done wrong - on the contrary, we have to face up to the fact that we're actually co-conspirators in the sin of the people we might condemn. The scriptures are addressed to us personally, and are not to be used as a yardstick for the judgement of the behaviour of other people. Paul is very clear on this point.

Does that mean we should abolish the entire criminal justice and penal system? Not necessarily - it just means, we need to remember that the sentences that are passed on criminals are human judgements, and not God's judgement. Sure, those judgements might be based on some laws and directives we've cooked up, and we might even like to convince ourselves that those laws are somehow based on the Ten Commandments - but they're still human judgements.

So it's quite permissible, in my opinion, to set up a system that seeks to restrain offenders for a while, provided that it serves the interest of the wider community. But actually killing people is probably taking it a little bit too far, in my opinion.

Is it akin to abortion?

I personally don't believe in moral relativism. Spreading nasty gossip about someone is every bit as much a sin as the massacre of six million people. But like I say - we're not qualified to pass judgement on people for these things. In the context of a human-administered justice system, it makes sense to give longer sentences for more serious crimes, in certain circumstances.

[Soldier4Christ]

But like I say - we're not qualified to pass judgement on people for these things.

Be careful using this statement, brother. If we cannot pass any sort of judgement then it would mean that we could not put them in jail either and as you have already indicated you are not for that.

[nChrist]

Hi guys. This is a discussion that was started on another Christan forum, and I am curious as to what everyone here thinks.

Is the death penalty right and ethical, Biblically speaking, when executed by God's agent of justice on this earth, IE, the government? Or is it not? Is it akin to abortion?

Hello Little Pilgrim,

Yes it is Biblical. It is Biblical in the Old Testament and the New Testament. One must not mix raisins with watermelons in this discussion. If a mass murderer is sentenced to death and is executed, the death penalty was a "PHYSICAL DEATH PENALTY". ONLY GOD is able to judge for a SPIRITUAL DEATH PENALTY that is eternal punishment. Men don't even pretend to do that.

The Holy Bible is quite clear about who places rulers, rendering unto Caesar and obeying the law, certainly including man's law. There is nothing against the teachings of the Holy Bible for men to be punished for violating the law. The death penalty has been with us for the entire history of mankind, so there is nothing new about this discussion. In fact, the death penalty was the prescribed penalty for many offenses in the Holy Bible. It's fascinating to note that many of man's laws were based on the Holy Bible, and the authority for the penalty was listed as the Holy Bible. If one wanted to use America as an example, serious offenses were listed with the Book, Chapter, and Verse of the Holy Bible with the law as part of the Law Book.

Little Pilgrim, I see absolutely no comparison between abortion and a death sentence given by a judge and jury. In fact, they are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Abortion is the murder of a completely innocent baby. The death penalty is given to a person who has committed horrendous crimes. Abortion is really little more than a murder of convenience to avoid responsibility and many times hide the evidence of another immoral act. I must also add that there is no judge and jury for the murder of the innocent baby.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33 NASB  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

[Shammu]

To all of you thinking that the death penatly is right, I disagree. I will always disagree with y'all.
The death penalty is murder. What does the Bible say about murder.........
Exodus 20:13  God commanded, "Thou shalt not murder"
Galatians 5:19-21 "now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revilings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."

[Bronzesnake]

I am for the death sentence, but only in cases which there is no shadow of doubt.
If there is even a shadow of doubt then natural life.

Here are some interesting biblical perspectives.


The Bible And Capital Punishment http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-bible-and-capital-punishment.htm

Modern Controversies #2


From time to time, the execution of a convicted killer touches off a flurry of protests, editorials in various print media, and TV and radio talk shows in which the pros and cons (mostly the "cons") of capital punishment are discussed. The message that usually comes from these sources is clear: capital punishment is a barbaric, discriminatory and ineffective method of punishment that needs to be eliminated. Even the Bible is sometimes appealed to in an effort to dissuade the minds of many regarding the state's right to take human life.

It is unfortunate that many who look to God as their ultimate authority in life and to the Bible as the authoritative expression of His will often allow such persuasive speech (Col. 2:4) to shape their attitudes and conclusions on this highly emotional subject. Intimidation seems to have more impact on some than inspiration. Thus this article will limit itself to a study of various texts from divine revelation with the hope and prayer that men and women who claim their first allegiance is to God will allow heavenly wisdom, rather than earthly, to determine their convictions on this subject. When this is done it should not be difficult to conclude that God's will is now and always has been that those who wantonly take the life of another human being deserve to have their life taken from them by the state.

Genesis 9:5-6---Instructions To Noah

In this first clear reference to "capital punishment" a number of things seem obvious.

1. There is something special about "man" as opposed to "beasts" and this is the basis for all injunctions in these two verses: "For in the image of God He made man"
(NASV) .

2. Because of his unique standing in creation, whoever takes man's life is to forfeit theirs.

3. This forfeiture of life is not something that God merely suggests---he requires it. Three times in vs. 5 it is said God "will demand an accounting" (NIV) for "the lifeblood" of men whether the life is taken by an animal or another man and the word "shall" in vs. 6 confirms the imperative nature of the language.

That this is a command God intended to be carried out forever seems clear not just by the language in these two verses but also by subsequent statements in both the Old and New Covenants.

4. Human agency is that through which God works in carrying out this requirement: "also from man, that is from one another, will I demand the soul of man" (Leupold's translation). The particular human agency God had in mind will become clear as we look at the biblical texts dealing with this subject.

That this statement to Noah was not something limited to the era immediately after the flood is evident when we consider the following:

The Law Of Moses---God's Will During The Mosaical Period

All during the time the law of Moses was in affect, it can be seen that God intended for the principles of Gen. 9:5-6 to be carried out. Two things seem obvious from a perusal of this law.

1. There was then (as there is now) a difference between "murder" and "killing". "Thou shalt not kill" (Ex. 20:13) is really "thou shalt not murder." To use the sixth commandment as a prohibition against the taking of human life under whatever circumstances is an egregious misuse of that divine precept. That this is so is apparent when one considers a second point.

2. Immediately after giving the "thou shalt not kill" precept, the following two chapters list at least ten offenses punishable by death: all forms of murder, 21:12; (Lev. 24:17; Num. 35:16-21); striking, cursing parents, 21:15,17; (Deut. 19:19-21); kidnapping, 21:16; slaying an unborn child, 21:23; owner of an animal that kills, 21:29; sorcery 22:18; (Lev. 20:27; Deut. 13:1-5); bestiality, 22:19; idolater, 22:20; (Lev. 20:1-5; Deut. 13:6-9; 17:2-7); abducting people for slavery, 21:16; (Deut. 24:7); Sabbath breaking, Ex. 31:14; 35:2; Num. 15:32-36.

3. Additional scriptures give even more reasons for putting one to death: blasphemy, Lev. 24:14,16, 23; 1 Kings 21:13; adultery, Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; incest, Lev. 20:11-17; rape, Deut. 22:25; false witnesses, Deut. 19:16-19; homosexuality, Lev. 20:13; false prophets, Deut. 18:20-22; resisting judgment, Deut. 17:8-13; immorality before marriage but detected afterwards, Deut. 22:13-21; non-Levites coming near or into sacred areas or duties, Num. 1:51; 3:10,38; 18:7.

God's will under the law of Moses didn't just allow but demanded the taking of human life. But what about the new covenant; what, if anything, does Christ say on the subject of the state's right to execute convicted criminals?

John 19:10-11---Jesus And Capital Punishment

In these verses Pilate made two explicit affirmations in the presence of Christ: (a) he had certain power (authority) as a civil magistrate and (b) this authority included the right to pass and carry out a death sentence, vs. 10. In vs. 11, Jesus responded to these statements but didn't indicate that Pilate was in error in regard to either of them. Instead, He concedes the accuracy of Pilate's assertions with the significant observation that this authority was given to him by God. If Jesus was the social activist that some claim and if capital punishment was evil, it seems strange that he didn't rebut the Roman governor's claims. Acknowledging his right to act as an
agent of civil government and carry out a death sentence seems highly unlikely and inconsistent if the Lord knew this was not now and had never been His Father's will.

There is one other interesting observation regarding this incident. Pilate was acting as an agent of a Gentile government which indicates that what is legislated in the law of Moses was not peculiar to that era or that group of people but is based upon some eternal principle applicable to all nations for all times, just as Gen. 9:5-6 suggests.

Acts 25:11---Paul Before Festus.

Under circumstances similar to those described in Jo. 19:10-11, Paul stood before the Roman procurator Festus and used his Roman citizenship to avoid being sent back to Jerusalem to a kangaroo court. In making his defense the apostle acknowledged (1) the legitimacy of "Caesar's judgment-seat", i.e., that civil governments have a rightful function in society, vs. 10, and (2) that he was not afraid to die if found guilty as charged. In his use of the phrase "worthy of death" he was in agreement with what would be stated later by Festus, vs. 25, and the other government officials, 26:31, when they, too, used this expression: certain wrong-doers are worthy of having their lives taken from them and civil governments have the right to administer such punishment. Why would Paul, who had the "mind of Christ", 1 Cor. 2:16, speak this way if this form of punishment didn't have God's sanction? That Paul's convictions regarding this matter were consistent can be seen in what he said in the final passages we examine.

Rom. 12:19; Rom. 13:1-7

Rom. 12:19 teaches (1) we are not to avenge or exact justice on our own but rather (2) "give place", i.e., make room for, God's wrath. What is meant by "God's wrath" is explained in the next phrase: "Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord." So evil men experience God's wrath as He takes vengeance on them. But how and when does God do this? Read Rom. 13:1-7.

There are "higher powers" ("Caesar's judgment-seat", Acts 25:10) that God has "ordained", vs. 1. Those who arrange themselves in battle (see Vine, p. 958) against their authority are setting themselves against God and shall receive judgment, vs. 2. But when and how does this judgment take place? Vss. 3-4 make it clear: rulers are intended to be a "terror" to evil men and their deeds, vs. 3, because they are ministers of God. Through the ministers of civil government God wields the "sword", the instrument of justice and punishment, and His intention is that it not be "borne" ("a continual or habitual condition," Vine, 93) "in vain" ("to no purpose", Vine, 1193).

Clearly, the "wrath of God" that we are to "give place to" as He takes vengeance is that which is administered at human hands in various forms of civil government as they wield the "sword."

Conclusion

Not only is it clear that the Old Testament sanctioned the death penalty, it is equally obvious that the punishment was to be done in order not to pollute the land, Num. 35:31, 33, and done so swiftly in order to serve as a deterrent: Deut. 19:19-21; Ecc. 8:11. I'm convinced that the "it's not a deterrent" argument could never be seriously made in a society where capital punishment was consistently and swiftly carried out.

Whatever hypothetical or real-life emotional scenarios one might set forth as an argument against capital punishment, the Bible-believer is faced with the realization that this is a practice that had God's approval during every major period of Bible history. One has to work hard and twist language to make the verses examined in this study say anything else.

 

 By David Smitherman 
 From Expository Files 3.2; February 1996

God Bless you all my friends...

John Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

I'd like to add someting else.

Does it bother anybody that whenever some ruthless murderer is about to meet God for his ultimate judgement all the same characters come out of the woodwork.

Jesse Jackson - Al Sharpton - Joan Biaz etc
They all hold up their little candles and sing awful folk songs written by Joan Biaz and the tears flow down to the sea.
Let this poor man go! He's a good guy now - Ya, because he got caught and he's been locked away where he can't kill innocent people anymore - ya, but he wrote a children's book - That is sick and scarry!

Where are all these kind hearted people when innocent folks get brutally slaughtered? Why aren't they ever out lobbying against murderers? Why don't they show up at the victim's families home and offer the same kind of empathy and sympathy for such great loss?

Hypocrites!!

[Shammu]

Brother,

Please remember, I brought my wifes killer to the Lord. He is serving a life sentence, without the chance of parole. He is now serving as the assistance Pastor in prison. I do recieve calls from him, when he has a question. I am willing to forgive him, and I have. He is now my brother, in Christ.

[airIam2worship]

I'd like to add someting else.

Does it bother anybody that whenever some ruthless murderer is about to meet God for his ultimate judgement all the same characters come out of the woodwork.

Jesse Jackson - Al Sharpton - Joan Biaz etc
They all hold up their little candles and sing awful folk songs written by Joan Biaz and the tears flow down to the sea.
Let this poor man go! He's a good guy now - Ya, because he got caught and he's been locked away where he can't kill innocent people anymore - ya, but he wrote a children's book - That is sick and scarry!

Where are all these kind hearted people when innocent folks get brutally slaughtered? Why aren't they ever out lobbying against murderers? Why don't they show up at the victim's families home and offer the same kind of empathy and sympathy for such great loss?

Hypocrites!!

Amen Brother, It makes me absolutely sick too. I think that if a person has been tried, his guilt has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and he has been sentenced to death, he should not be allowed  to continue to live out another 20-30 years on our tax dollars, he should be put to death and the penalty should be carried out, and the media should only be notified after the fact.

[airIam2worship]

Brother,

Please remember, I brought my wifes killer to the Lord. He is serving a life sentence, without the chance of parole. He is now serving as the assistance Pastor in prison. I do recieve calls from him, when he has a question. I am willing to forgive him, and I have. He is now my brother, in Christ.

DW, I am sorry, I never knew how you lost your wife, I am happy that the person who did this to you has had a change of heart and is now serving the Lord. But Brother there are a great many people in prison, who continue to live lives of crime,I admit ther are many who give their life to the Lord and really change and continue to live for the Lord, but there are also those like Charles Manson, who never change. Then there are those who think that they are above reproach like Scott Petersen, people like them might never even repent or even feel remorse for their crimes.

[Soldier4Christ]

I remember a situation in the news not to long ago about a woman that had commited murder. She was tried, convicted and sentenced to death. While waiting the death sentence she had accepted the Lord. She also said that she realised that she had commited a crime and was ready to pay for that crime in what ever way the government decided. She went to her death being ready to meet the Lord.

I understand your position Brother Bob and I am glad that you have been able, through Christ, to forgive that person. It is what God would want us to do, for forgiveness is to the benefit of the spiritual health of our hearts. This does not preclude a person from facing the consequences of their sin here on earth. As for afterwards it is up to the Lord.

It is the same thing in time of war. Sometimes it is necessary for killing to take place in conditions of war. This does not mean that we are to hate our enemies. In fact it is quite the opposite. We are to love our enemies but this still does not preclude us from shooting or killing them in that situation, but we must do so without hate or anger in our hearts.

[Shammu]

there are also those like Charles Manson, who never change. Then there are those who think that they are above reproach like Scott Petersen, people like them might never even repent or even feel remorse for their crimes.

They have made their choice, of their own free will. They will have to answer to the Lord, not to me. I try and not judge anyone. Confessed murder or not, I am not their judge. Jesus is the Chief judge and jury and sentencer. To the Lake of Fire, all who have deined Jesus.

At the trial, I prayed to God and through prayer I was able to recieve peace of mind and what God wanted me to do. Before sentence was passed, I was asked if I want to make a statement to the court. I did and asked for a life sentence, without a chance of parole. Which was granted, I went to prison, on visiting day, and ministered to him. The rest is now history. I have forgiven him, and he has recieved the Lord.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--and if not, blot me, I pray You, out of Your book which You have written!

John 20:23 [Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

Colossians 3:13 Be gentle and forbearing with one another and, if one has a difference (a grievance or complaint) against another, readily pardoning each other; even as the Lord has [freely] forgiven you, so must you also [forgive].

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ( left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have given up resentment against) our debtors.

[airIam2worship]

I remember a situation in the news not to long ago about a woman that had commited murder. She was tried, convicted and sentenced to death. While waiting the death sentence she had accepted the Lord. She also said that she realised that she had commited a crime and was ready to pay for that crime in what ever way the government decided. She went to her death being ready to meet the Lord.

I understand your position Brother Bob and I am glad that you have been able, through Christ, to forgive that person. It is what God would want us to do, for forgiveness is to the benefit of the spiritual health of our hearts. This does not preclude a person from facing the consequences of their sin here on earth. As for afterwards it is up to the Lord.

It is the same thing in time of war. Sometimes it is necessary for killing to take place in conditions of war. This does not mean that we are to hate our enemies. In fact it is quite the opposite. We are to love our enemies but this still does not preclude us from shooting or killing them in that situation, but we must do so without hate or anger in our hearts.

Amen. PR, Brother Bob, I don't know how I would react if I was ever in the position you found yourself in, I can only pray that my faith and love and patience is a strong as yours.