Capital Punishment...

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen, Brother Bob. Those verses are exactly what I was talking about.

We must not forget:

Tit 3:1  Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

While here on earth we are subject to the powers of government that God has placed in that position. It is the same as Jesus and Paul both did. Neither one said that those governments had no right to judge them and determine what happened to their physical bodies. In fact it was quite the opposite.

That is why we are also told;

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[Shammu]

Amen. PR, Brother Bob, I don't know how I would react if I was ever in the position you found yourself in, I can only pray that my faith and love and patience is a strong as yours.

Sister Maria, I pray you are never in that position. If you are though, pray to the Lord. Jesus will never lead you astray, from his path.

Romans 5:18 Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

[airIam2worship]

Sister Maria, I pray you are never in that position. If you are though, pray to the Lord. Jesus will never lead you astray, from his path.

Romans 5:18 Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

DW, I pray I never have to go through anything like that either, but we never know what will happen from one minute to the next. All we can do is pray, and trust God to see us through any difficult times.

[Shammu]

All we can do is pray, and trust God to see us through any difficult times.

AMEN sister AMEN

[Allinall]

Brother,

Please remember, I brought my wifes killer to the Lord. He is serving a life sentence, without the chance of parole. He is now serving as the assistance Pastor in prison. I do recieve calls from him, when he has a question. I am willing to forgive him, and I have. He is now my brother, in Christ.

Bob,  that's quite a testimony.  It certainly is humbling my friend.   

[Allinall]

I also want to add that I am for the death penalty.  I do believe that it is biblical in the sense of following the governmental leadership we are under.  That's somewhat of a thin line, as I wouldn't follow them if they told me not to worship God or tell others of Jesus.  But, I do find biblical support for this. 

But what I also find if God's mercy.  Which of us does not deserve death right here and now?  Jesus Himself even stayed an execution...yet He did not do the same for two thieves hanging next to Him.  Different circumstances, yes, but the same God.  The law demanded both deaths; one Hebrew, the other Roman.

Just a thought...

[Shammu]

Bob,  that's quite a testimony.  It certainly is humbling my friend.   

Brother Kevin,

Remember we are to make ourselves humbling to the Lord. And he has lifted me up. Thats one of the reason, I call alot of you (CU) family to me. The only thing I can say, if I had to do it all again, I would, pain and all.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Proverbs 25:7 For better it is that it should be said to you, Come up here, than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, whose eyes have seen you.

Edited to add;

P.S. This will be my last post in this thread, it's just to painful to me. Though I will follow what y'all say.
Bob

[Allinall]

Brother Kevin,

Remember we are to make ourselves humbling to the Lord. And he has lifted me up. Thats one of the reason, I call alot of you (CU) family to me. The only thing I can say, if I had to do it all again, I would, pain and all.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Proverbs 25:7 For better it is that it should be said to you, Come up here, than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, whose eyes have seen you.

Edited to add;

P.S. This will be my last post in this thread, it's just to painful to me. Though I will follow what y'all say.
Bob

Hey.  Any way you look at it, God grants grace and mercy to us all.  I believe it would do us all good to do the same.  It has had a tremendous affect in your situation Brother, and God has blessed many through it.  Love ya man.  Prayin' for ya too!   

[Frederic Dalton]

But like I say - we're not qualified to pass judgement on people for these things. - Be careful using this statement, brother. If we cannot pass any sort of judgement then it would mean that we could not put them in jail either and as you have already indicated you are not for that.

Good point. I should clarify. In my opinion, there's judgment and there's moral judgement. When a doctor makes a decision to offer a particular kind of treatment to a patient that may have adverse side-effects, he makes that decision based on the results of diagnostic tests. He should never have to decide whether the patient is an inherently "good" or "bad" person - even in cases where the treatment is for drug dependency, or a sexually transmitted disease.

And I think about legal judgements in the same way. A judge or magistrate can administer the law, and sentence people to prison, community service or probation without deciding whether or not, in his opinion, the defendent is an inherently "good" or "bad" person - and if he does let the idea that the defendent might be inherently good or bad cloud his judgement, then he's not doing his job properly - just like the doctor who treats drug dependency or STD's.

I appreciate that this is not necessarily a reason for opposing capital punishment. For example, a judge could decide that a defendant should be sentenced to death, in the same way that a public health doctor could decide that a person with a highly infectious illness should be quarantined, at risk they might die from their illness, and perhaps even actively killed, in order to protect the health of the wider community. No-one would dream of suggesting that the person with the illness is inherently bad - but if killing them is the only way to protect the population at large from a cataclysmic epidemic - then so be it.

Fortunately - thanks to the advances in antibiotics that God has given us, the scenario where we have to kill someone to contain an infection arises only very infrequently. And I see the death sentence in much the same way. Convicted murderers, as a general rule, pose far less risk to the community than people with the most serious contagious diseases, in my opinion - but if we can't justify the routine killing of people will infectious illnesses, then how much less can we justify the killing of people convicted of serious crimes.

Yes it is Biblical. It is Biblical in the Old Testament and the New Testament. One must not mix raisins with watermelons in this discussion. If a mass murderer is sentenced to death and is executed, the death penalty was a "PHYSICAL DEATH PENALTY". ONLY GOD is able to judge for a SPIRITUAL DEATH PENALTY that is eternal punishment. Men don't even pretend to do that.

I absolutely completely agree with blackeyedpeas on that point. However, I still believe that the death penalty is an exception, to be used strictly in circumstances where it truly benefits the wider community only - and that those circumstances are very few and far between indeed. Even multiple murders aren't justification enough, provided we can safely house inmates for their natural lives. I don't even believe that Saddam Hussein or the Nazi war criminals have necessarily done enough to justify a death penalty, since neither of them pose a major risk to the wider community in their current state.

[nChrist]

Brother Kevin,

Remember we are to make ourselves humbling to the Lord. And he has lifted me up. Thats one of the reason, I call alot of you (CU) family to me. The only thing I can say, if I had to do it all again, I would, pain and all.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Proverbs 25:7 For better it is that it should be said to you, Come up here, than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, whose eyes have seen you.

Edited to add;

P.S. This will be my last post in this thread, it's just to painful to me. Though I will follow what y'all say.
Bob

Dreamweaver,

Brother,

I answered Frederick Dalton from the perspective of a Christian Police Officer and seeing 25 years of untold misery. However, I forgot about your most valid perspective when I answered Frederick. So, please accept my apology. I really can't imagine the depth of your perspective, but I do respect it tremendously.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 9:9-10 NASB  The LORD also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble;  And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

[Shammu]

Dreamweaver,

Brother,

I answered Frederick Dalton from the perspective of a Christian Police Officer and seeing 25 years of untold misery. However, I forgot about your most valid perspective when I answered Frederick. So, please accept my apology. I really can't imagine the depth of your perspective, but I do respect it tremendously.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 9:9-10 NASB  The LORD also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble;  And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

Not a problem brother, I understood where you were coming from.

[sincereheart]

To all of you thinking that the death penatly is right, I disagree. I will always disagree with y'all.
The death penalty is murder. What does the Bible say about murder.........
Exodus 20:13  God commanded, "Thou shalt not murder"
Galatians 5:19-21 "now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revilings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."

Is there a difference between "murder" and "kill"?

[nChrist]

Hello Sincereheart,

Sister, I really think that you would need to add some more terms and definitions to get to the meat of most debates.

There are also various arenas that are generally the focus for many debates on the topic. However, the subject of the thread is "Capital Punishment", so the main area for this discussion would be court, man's law, and due process under the law. The arguments for and against enter other arenas.

Generally, "Murder" in all areas of discussion is the illegal and wrongful taking of of human life by God's law and by man's law.

Generally, "Put to death" in all areas of discussion indicates an action under the law or prescribed by man's law or God's law, or both. There are many offenses in the Holy Bible where the prescribed penalty is to be "put to death". It should be easily noted that there are many parallels and comparisons between God's law and man's law.

Generally, "Kill" could be in several areas of discussion, both legal and illegal under man's law or God's law. This is probably the broadest areas of discussion, but not in the Capital Punishment debate. This could involve war, accident, self-defense, murder, and generally everything where death results. As an example, there is a big difference between death in a fire and death in an arson fire.

In either arena of God's Law or man's law, you definitely have to define the death and carefully determine what applies. As an example the Commandment of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" obviously did not apply to the numerous death penalties for various offenses in the Holy Bible. If you carried God's Law over into the arena of man's law, the same would be true. In fact, many areas in man's law that involves the death penalty was derived directly from God's Law.

In conclusion, I would say that I completely understand the various opinions on Capital Punishment. I would agree with it for numerous reasons, but I would have complete respect for people who disagree with it. What I don't understand is why some people claim to have big problems in defending their own families. I would have no hesitation or problem at all in defending my family. If death resulted for the intruder or aggressor, I would use the term "killed" or "defense of my family". It certainly wouldn't be murder because I feel that I have every legal right under man's law and God's law to protect my family. "Turn the other cheek" does not apply when someone is trying to kill a family member. I fully understand that many of my beliefs are blunt or harsh, and those beliefs are heavily influenced by 25 years in police work. However, I feel certain that my beliefs are still Christian, and I was a Christian Police Officer with the "Christian" first. I had to study, think, and pray about this matter long and hard before I ever entered the profession. I'm sure that the same would be true for a Christian Soldier.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:26-27 NASB  In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

[Rev. Belch]

Amen Brother, It makes me absolutely sick too. I think that if a person has been tried, his guilt has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and he has been sentenced to death, he should not be allowed  to continue to live out another 20-30 years on our tax dollars, he should be put to death and the penalty should be carried out, and the media should only be notified after the fact.

Yes exactly in the times of Moses if someone needed the death penalty they just took them out side the city right then and took care of it. Oh and what about in Joshua 7 remember the story of Achan who had taken things that he shouldn't. They not only stoned him but his entire family

Joshua 7: 22 -26 So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent; and there it was, hidden in his tent, with the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, brought them to Joshua and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the Lord. Then Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, the silver, the garment, the wedge of gold, his sons, his daughters, his oxen, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and all that he had, and they brought them to the Valley of Achor. And Joshua said, “Why have you troubled us? The Lord will trouble you this day.” So all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones. Then they raised over him a great heap of stones, still there to this day. So the Lord turned from the fierceness of His anger. Therefore the name of that place has been called the Valley of Achor to this day.