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| | |-+  HOW CAN WE SAY JESUS IS ONE WITH GOD AND STILL CONFESS A TRINITY?
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Author Topic: HOW CAN WE SAY JESUS IS ONE WITH GOD AND STILL CONFESS A TRINITY?  (Read 8878 times)
nChrist
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2005, 03:39:37 PM »

Hello HIServant,

Quote
Electricity - unseen in the wire - FATHER.
Heat - felt but not seen, in an electric bulb - HOLY SPIRIT.
Light - JESUS is the Light of the world, can be seen and experienced.

I really like this analogy and have never heard this one before. I was thinking about my own experiences with JESUS while reading this and how much I love HIM more each day.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 11:28-30 NASB  "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.  "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.  "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2005, 11:40:27 PM »

hi servant, i said the exact same thing about ice, water, and steam. i do like the idea of the electricity example. so i agree. but i'm only asking, can we make up terminologies, adopt, them and call them holy? god ment what he said when he said it. if he wanted it to say trinity, do you think that hes sure enough to say trinity? once again i believe there are three manisfestations of one, thats not just a good idea, thats the truth.
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2005, 10:21:28 AM »

The teaching of the Trinity is very often misunderstood. Some think that it is the teaching of three separate gods. It is not three separate gods. It is ONE GOD in three manisfestations, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even though the word "Trinity" is not used in the Bible it does teach us just this .... ONE GOD in three different manifestations. Just because this word was not used in the Bible does not make it false. There are many words used today that were not used in the Bible. It does not make them false unless the meaning behind them, the context, is false.

Another example is calling the beast of Revelations the anti-Christ. There are those that will dispute this unendingly. Anti-Christ means to be against Christ. The beast of Revelations is against Christ and all that is Christ therefore it is also ANTI-CHRIST.

Some go so far as to say that you can only use the word Yeshua when referring to Him. Others say it must be YHWH and to use any other name is blasphemy.

Jesus Christ, Yeshua, Jehoshua, God, YHWH, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or hundreds of others, HE IS ALL ONE AND THE SAME



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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2005, 05:13:43 PM »

I posted a description of what the Trinity is like, also, but can't find it.

Father......Son.........Holy Spirit.  They are ONE in/and the same.  Example:

You can be a grandfather, father, and son.  You are one person, but have different roles; role of father, sometimes; role of grandfather, sometimes;  role of son, sometimes.  It's the same with God............God the Father (creator) is God, God the Son (Jesus Christ) is God, and God the Holy Spirit (Helper) is God.............different manifestations of the same God.
This is as close as I can come to a definition, albeit imperfect, as we aren't omnipotent (absolute power), omniscient (knowing all), or omnipresent (being everywhere at the same time).  

IMO, when we (Adam and Eve) were "in the garden" we KNEW God.  We only needed to OBEY His command not to eat of the "tree of knowledge."  We didn't have to THINK about it. Then the serpent entered and tempted Eve to see (think) things differently.  It seemed like a good thing.  The rest is history.  When Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, they sinned, and that sin caused a breach in their relationship to God as they had KNOWN Him.  God and sin can't intimately fellowship.  So we must toil (THINK).  When we see Him, we will be like Him.  Our relationship with Him will be restored.  Oh, but there's lots that must be done between those last two sentences.  We must be reborn.  Praise God that He loved us enough to provide the way back to Him through the sacrifice His son Jesus Christ.  What a loving and merciful God we have the privilege of serving.

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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2005, 07:41:22 PM »

The form in which this doctrine lies in the Bible, and in which it enters into the faith of the Church universal, includes substantially the following particulars.

    1. There is one only living and true God, or divine Being. The religion of the Bible stands opposed not only to Atheism, but to all forms of polytheism. The Scriptures everywhere assert that Jehovah alone is God. (Deut. vi. 4.) "The Lord our God is one Lord." "I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God." (Is. xliv. 6.) "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well." (James ii. 19.) The Decalogue, which is the foundation of the moral and religious code of Christianity, as well as of Judaism, has as its first and greatest commandment., "Thou shalt have no other God before me." No doctrine, thererfore, can possibly be true which contradicts this primary truth of natural as well as of revealed religion.

    2. In the Bible all divine titles and attributes are ascribed equally to the Father, Son, and Spirit. The same divine worship is rendered to them. The one is as much the object of adoration, love, confidence, and devotion as the other. It is not more evident that the Father is God, than that the Son is God; nor is the deity of the Father and Son more clearly revealed than that of the Spirit.

    3. The terms Father, Son, and Spirit do not express different relations of God to his creatures. They are not analogous to the terms Creator, Preserver, and Benefactor, which do express such relations. The Scriptural facts are, (a.) The Father says I; the Son says I; the Spirit says I. (b.) The Father says Thou to the Son, and the Son says Thou to the Father; and in like manner the Father and the Son use the pronouns He and Him in reference to the Spirit. (c.)The Father loves the Son; the Son loves the Father; the Spirit testifies of the Son. The Father, Son, and Spirit are severally subject and object. They act and are acted upon, or are the objects of action. Nothing is added to these facts when it is said that the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons; for a person is an intelligent subject who can say I, who can be addressed as Thou, and who can act and can be the object of action. The summation of the above facts is expressed in the proposition, The one divine. Being subsists in three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. This proposition adds nothing to the facts themselves; for the facts are, (1.) That there is one divine Being. (2.) The Father, Son, and Spirit are divine. (3.) The Father, Son, and Spirit are, in the sense just stated, distinct persons. (4.) Attributes being inseparable from substance, the Scriptures, in saying that the Father, Son, and Spirit possess the same attributes, say they are the same in substance; and, if the same in substance, they are equal in power and glory.

    4. Notwithstanding that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the same in substance, and equal in power and glory, it is no less true according to the Scriptures, (a.) That the Father is first, the Son second, and the Spirit third. (b.) The Son is of the Father (evk qeou/, the lo,goj, eivko.n, avpau,gasma, tou/ qeou/);and the Spirit is of the Father and of the Son. (c.)The Father sends the Son, and the Father and Son send the Spirit. (d.)The Father operates through the Son, and the Father and Son operate through the Spirit. The converse of these statements is never found. The Son is never said to send the Father, nor to operate through Him nor is the Spirit ever said to send the Father, or the Son, or to operate through them. The facts contained in this paragraph are summed up in the proposition: In the Holy Trinity there is a subordination of the Persons as to the mode of subsistence and operation. This proposition again adds nothing to the facts themselves.

    5. According to the Scriptures, the Father created the world, the Son created the world, and the Spirit created the world. The Father preserves all things; the Son upholds all things; and the Spirit is the source of all life. These facts are expressed by saying that the persons of the Trinity concur in all acts ad extra. Nevertheless there are some acts which are predominantly referred to the Father, others to the Son, and others to the Spirit. The Father creates, elects, and calls; the Son redeems; and the Spirit sanctifies. And, on the other hand, there are certain acts, or conditions, predicated of one person of the Trinity, which are never predicated of either of the others. Thus, generation belongs exclusively to the Father, filiation to the Son, and procession to he Spirit. This is the form in which the doctrine of the Trinity lies in the Bible. The above statement involves no philosophical element. It is simply an arrangement of the clearly revealed facts bearing on this subject. This is the form in which the doctrine has always entered into the faith of the Church, as a part of its religious convictions and experience.

    To say that this doctrine is incomprehensible, is to say nothing more than must be admitted of any other great truth, whether of revelation or of science. To say that it is impossible that the one divine substance can subsist in three distinct persons, is certainly unreasonable, when, according to that form of philosophy which has been the most widely diffused, and the most persistent, everything that exists is only one of the innumerable forms in which one and the same infinite substance subsists; and when, according to the Realists, who once controlled the thinking world, all men are the individualized forms of the numerically same substance called generic humanity.

To be continued
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2005, 07:42:41 PM »


B. Scriptural Proof of the Doctrine.

    No such doctrine as that of the Trinity can be adequately proved by any citation of Scriptural passages. Its constituent elements are brought into view, some in one place, and some in another. The unity of the Divine Being; the true and equal divinity of the Father, Son, and Spirit; their distinct personality; the relation in which they stand one to the other, and to the Church and the world, are not presented in a doctrinal formula in the Word of God, but the several constituent elements of the doctrine are asserted, or assumed, over and over, from the beginning to the end of the Bible. It is, therefore, by proving these elements separately, that the whole doctrine can be most satisfactorily established. All that is here necessary is, a reference to the general teachings of Scripture on the subject, and to some few passages in which everything essential to the doctrine is included.

The Progressive Character of Divine Revelation.

    1. The progressive character of divine revelation is recognized in relation to all the great doctrines of the Bible. One of the strongest arguments for the divine origin of the Scriptures is the organic relation of its several parts. They comprise more than sixty books written by different men in different ages, and yet they form one whole; not by mere external historical relations, nor in virtue of the general identity of the subjects of which they treat. but by their internal organic development. All that is in a full-grown tree was potentially in the seed. All that we find unfolded in the fulness of the gospel lies in a rudimental form in the earliest books of the Bible. What at first is only obscurely intimated is gradually unfolded in subsequent parts of the sacred volume, until the truth is revealed in its fulness. This is true of the doctrines of redemption; of the person and work of the Messiah, the promised seed of the woman; of the nature and office of the Holy Spirit; and of a future state beyond the grave. And this is specially true of the doctrine of the Trinity. Even in the book of Genesis there are intimations of the doctrine which receive their true interpretation in later revelations. That the names of God are in the plural form; that the personal pronouns are often in the first person plural ("Let us make man in our image"); that the form of benediction is threefold, and other facts of like nature, may be explained in different ways. But when it becomes plain, from the progress of the revelation, that there are three persons in the Godhead, then such forms of expression can hardly fail to be recognized as having their foundation in that great truth.

    2. Much more important, however, is the fact, that not only in Genesis, but also in all the early books of Scripture, we find a distinction made between Jehovah and the angel of Jehovah, who himself is God, to whom all divine titles are given, and divine worship is rendered. As the revelation is unfolded, such distinction becomes more and more manifest. This messenger of God it called the word, the wisdom, the Son of God. His personality and divinity are clearly revealed. He is of old, even from everlasting, the Mighty God, the Adonai, the Lord of David, Jehovah our Righteousness, who was to be born of a virgin, and bear the sins of many.

    3. In like manner, even in the first chapter of Genesis, the Spirit of God is represented as the source of all intelligence, order, and life in the created universe; and in the following books of the Old Testament He is represented as inspiring the prophets, giving wisdom, strength, and goodness to statesmen and warriors, and to the people of God. This Spirit is not an agency, but an agent, who teaches and selects; who can be sinned against and grieved; and who, in the New Testament, is unmistakably revealed as a distinct person. When John the Baptist appeared, we find him speaking of the Holy Spirit as of a person with whom his countrymen were familiar, as an object of divine worship and the giver of saving blessings. Our divine Lord also takes this truth for granted, and promised to send the Spirit, as a Paraclete, to take his place; to instruct, comfort, and strengthen them, whom they were to receive and obey. Thus, without any violent transition, the earliest revelations of this mystery were gradually unfolded, until the Triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit, appears in the New Testament as the universally recognized God of all believers.

Just a few thoughts I found

Joshua

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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2005, 07:47:15 PM »

Also here's a few books and authors you can read. The Trinity is one such subject that you will have to cone to a realization through serious study of God's Word. While it is a matter that can be discussed, there is one fact that is clear. Jesus is God. God the Father sent Jesus, His Son on the earth and God became man. Hence the name Immanuel. This translates as "God with us" or if you really want to get into it, do a word study on the word "Logos" in the Greek. I am being summoned to a surprise birthday party i just remembered, i'll post those books for reading a little later on.

Coram Deo,
Joshua
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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2005, 01:28:36 AM »

Amen Jemidon!  This topic has been beaten up quite a bit.  But suffice to say that it is an antinomy.  It's truth that God is God alone.  It is also true that the Son is God alone, as is the Spirit.  3 in 1.   While the name "Trinity" has been coined elsewhere, the doctrine is nontheless pertinent.  Well addressed Bro!   Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2005, 01:34:44 AM »

ICE CREAM: Vanila ice cream, Strawberry ice cream and Chocolate ice cream; Different flavours but all have exactly the same texture, feel, properties etc. Only one difference is the flavour. Same way, Father-Son-Holy Spirit, all are One in Godship but have different flavours of character; personalities. Three-in-one.
I love the illustration above. I will have to remember this one, cause it is great.
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2005, 09:10:03 PM »

i agree to the extent of one god, three manisfestations. i guess my issue is the term trinity...now you do your research, does it secretly attempt to dilute the name of jesus?
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« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2005, 09:53:33 PM »

i agree to the extent of one god, three manisfestations. i guess my issue is the term trinity...now you do your research, does it secretly attempt to dilute the name of jesus?

Not at all. In fact it exalts the name of Jesus to the most high for Jesus is God not just an ordinary man.



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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2005, 11:12:57 PM »

how does the word trinity exalt the name of jesus? i am not being sarcastic, i am truely asking. theres power, healing, deliverence, saving grace, etc...in the NAME of Jesus, not the word trinity....this is the very reason people baptize in the trinity...insted of the name of jesus!
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2005, 11:17:55 PM »

The Trinity shows us the mighty hand of God. He is capable of doing what is not logical to the human mind. The human mind says that one God cannot also be three. It is impossible, so says the human mind, for three separate entities to also be one entity. Yet the Bible tells us that this is true. God can and does do what is not humanly logical.

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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2005, 11:57:35 PM »

Pastor Roger,

i totally agree with this statement, except, i believe that jesus shows the mighty hand of god and not the word trinity. many times we defend things that we do not really understand. the trinity is the belief that god exsist in the seperate persons...father, son, and holy ghost. that is what the trinity means. but if we believe that they are one we'd have no problem addressing them in the name of jesus. this is the part that the human mind can not understand.
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2005, 09:05:41 PM »

I'll reply with this: Who can know the mind of God? Simply put, the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the Sovereignty of God is a stumbling block for thousands. They try to wrap their minds around such an enormous concept that it is impossible to do such a thing. Hence why God reveals only enough to show us that He is still  a Sovereign God and that He is actively involved in our lives. Just a few thoughts.

Joshua
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