Rapture

[Shammu]

 

Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming
by: Thomas Ice

2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "Bema Judgment" from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Since such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Ice has stated and, most here agree with Ice, that some how 2 Cor  5 :10 fills  a gap in time.  We seem to agree that the scriptures are the  authority not an author. So tell me where does 2 Cor 5 10 tell us of a passage of time.

Taken in content with; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive  and are left will be caught up  together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words."
Reba, can you see where I get time from?

 
I am looking at it through Rosh HaShanah. Rosh HaShanah is celebrated for two days because of uncertainty about observing the festivals on the correct calendar day. Rosh HaShanah is the only holiday celebrated for two days in Israel. As with all other festivals, the uncertainty was involved in a calendar that depended on when the new moon was promulgated, designating the beginning of each new month by the rabbinical court in Jerusalem  A Jewish year, is 360 days. A Georgian year, is 365 days.

A time interval is needed so that God's program for the church, a time when Jew and Gentile are united in one body not become commingled in any way with His unfinished and future plan for Israel during the tribulation.  The pretribulational rapture of the church fulfills a biblical need to not only see a distinction between the translation of Church Age saints at the rapture, before the second coming, but it also handles without difficulty the necessity of a time-gap which harmonizes a number of future biblical events. This requirement of a seven-year gap of time adds another plank to the likelihood that pretribulationism best reflects the biblical viewpoint.

More conjecture, this again is not scripture but Thomas Ice’s view of scripture.  God is the creator of time. How many here will say God is outside of time and yet fall in to believing God needs time. What do the scriptures say?

Ice’s statement was about 460 words . The closes to scripture is

:Revelation 19:7-10[/b] pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (illustrated as "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ)

Which is only about 30 words. Again I ask what do the scripture say.

Revelation 19:7-10  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And yes, scriptures are the authority not man, or woman. By the way, your writing/spelling has gotten better. Heading back to bed now, cause I've been sick.

Resting in the arms, of the Lord.
Bob

[Bronzesnake]

Rev 1:1-3
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 I believe John was being shown a future vision, and therefore the things which John saw would "shortly come to pass"

 I have some major problems with preterism.
If all the prophecies from Rev have already come to pass in A.D.70, then there are some major details missing.

 When did Russia and the Arab confederacy attack Israel?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 most clearly describe this devestating attack. These scriptures are too long to post, but I encourage you to look them over.

 Look at Ezekiel 38:8 for a general outline of the war.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.  

 Ezekiel was given a vision (Ezekiel 38 and 39) which describes a huge confederacy of nations, led by Magog (Russia)

 Ezekiel 38:18,19,21 describe God's reaction to this unprovoked attack.

 God unleashes the greatest earthquake in the history of the planet.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;  

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.  

 When did this occur in 70A.D.?

 Ezekiel said God will send fire on Magog (Russia) and those who live securely on the coastline.

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.  

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.  

 Ezekiel says God's vengeance on Israel's enemies will leave so many dead, that it will take the Jews seven months to bury them.

Eze 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the [noses] of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call [it] The valley of Hamongog.  

Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.  

 The area described as the burrial ground is in a valley east of the Dead Sea in Jordan. It is called "Hamongog" which means "The valley of the multitude of Russia"

 Ezekiel says Russia's weapons and fuel will not be waisted...

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:  

 The Russian army transports enomous quantities of fuel in portable and inflatable fuel dumps. Some of their weapons are made of Iignostone, which is a combustable material.

 These things have not occured as of yet.

Jesus gave us many details of the end times.

In Matthew24:3 Jesus was asked, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?"  Jesus told his apostles to look for  the following signs prior to his second coming and the end of the age.

Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and will mislead many."

Matthew 24:11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many."

Matthew 24:6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end."

Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

The number and intensity of earthquakes this century is at a level higher than any other time in history.  A staggering number of seismic events occur around the world daily.  The earthquake seismic monitor IRIS shows all major earthquakes for the last year.  Indicated by yellow and red circles, the seismic events of the last 15 days provides strong evidence of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7 in our day.  By contrast, in the years from 1890 to 1900 there was only one major earthquake in the world


Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

Matthew 24:8-9 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.  Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name."

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.  For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I Timothy 4:1-3 "But the spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.  By means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth."

 The Rev describes a Temple which satan enters and proclaims himself to be God. We do not find the temple being destroyed anywhere in end times prophecies.


 I could go on, but I don't want to come off as pushy.

These are just some of the "missing" details for a preterest doctrine.

[Reba]

 Dreamweaver

Taken in content with; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive  and are left will be caught up  together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words."
Reba, can you see where I get time from?

 

 Nope  

I sure dont see it DW. How does the time gap you see fit in the words of Jesus?  The  time i see is the hour Jesus speaks of.


Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[Reba]

In my mind shortly is not 2000+ years, campare the terms shortly and at hand used in other places in scripture and 2000+years  doesn't fit.


To Eze....

Eze reads about the same as The Revelation.


When has Israel not been under attack?

 

[Bronzesnake]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

 John was transported in time - spiritually - to the future . Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  
 The visions John saw have not yet occurred - this is evident because of the fact that the twenty-four elders are depicted wearing clean, white linen, and wearing crowns. This cannot be possible until the resurrection of the just, and we know that has not happened yet, because if it has, then we are all in Hell right now. Jesus told John these things would shortly happen. Not from the time of John, 2,000 years ago, but from the point in time in the future, where John was transported by Jesus so he could warn the future end times generation of what signs to look for and what exactly to expect.

 Ezekiel is another example of a man being shown events, which would not happen in his own time, but rather, in the distant future. The bible is loaded with such prophetic visions. There are loads of prophecies about the coming messiah, Jesus, in the Old Testament, which were written two thousand years before Jesus appeared on earth.

 

When has Israel not been under attack?

 I agree, Israel has been under constant attack throughout it's history, just as God said it would.
My point is that Russia and the Arab confederate and Asians nations have never attacked Israel simultaneously as the Revelations, Daniel and Ezekiel describe. These are the future events, which John saw, which Jesus told him would soon come to pass.

 There are many more examples of events described in Revelation, which simply have not occurred yet. When did Jesus set His feet on the Mount of Olives and cause the great earthquake which knocked down every mountain and building on earth? I saw some very magnificent mountains here in Canada, in British Columbia, which I seriously doubt grew over the past 2,000 years. It hasn't happened yet my sister. Preterism is not a sound biblical doctrine in my humble opinion, it doesn't add up.

[psalmistsinger]

I have been reading through this interesting topic today. It has been a while since I have been here, but it is good to read again the thoughtful posts of Blackeyedpeas and Bronzesnake as well as the others.

Since I am rarely able to make it up here I have considered not posting on this subject at all as my somewhat preterist opinion differs with others I have come to respect through their manner and godly attitudes. Allow me to say with all sincerity that I would rather remain completely silent on this topic then to cause anyone to disregard anything I have said on essential matters -God's everlasting grace in Christ - because of a differing view on the Rapture, which I consider secondary. My posts are not given with the intent of causing anger. If we disagree on eschatology, I assure you we agree that Christ is Lord, and there is no Way but Him. Much of my post is from a conversation I had recently at my church.

I admit freely that Eschatology is not my "forte’". I know for some it is a very important issue. In the end I find, for me, the thing that matters isn't my eschatological views so much, but do I have a relationship with the Lord my God through Jesus Christ? I can be wrong about eschatology -I must not be wrong  about trusting Jesus. I do not say that to minimize those to whom eschatology, whatever the view, is of prime importance. I am only being honest about my own simple understanding.

 
Much, not all, of what we believe about eschatology is taken from the book of revelation. The book of Revelation is, to say the least, a difficult book. The question for many is how literally do we take it? In my opinion -not very, at least not in the sense that events or places are described as they actually are, but rather events and places are used as descriptive of Spiritual truths -most specifically as it concerns the New Covenant.

Now of course the question becomes by what authority would this be said?

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Revelation 1:1-3

The "revealing" of Jesus to show things that must shortly (a distinct time frame) come to pass was given to John in the words of this prophecy for the time was "at hand". Notice the word "signify".  The Revelation was signified by the following vision, or series of visions, and was written down as John was instructed in 1:11, "What thou seest, write in a book."

So were the visions literal or spiritual? I believe they were spiritual. The New Covenant is spiritual. God is Spirit, Jesus said the words that I speak they are Spirit and they are Life. The first Adam was earthly; the second Adam is the Lord from Heaven. Jesus told Nicodemus that if he didn't understand when He spoke to him of earthly things how would he understand if He spoke to him of heavenly things. I believe Revelation is speaking to us symbolically of heavenly things.

I think most would agree there is not a literal woman out in space clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. Most would agree there is no literal seven headed, ten horned, crowned beast somewhere out in the sea awaiting for the appropriate time to make itself known. Most accept these as spiritual illustrations. Being full of spiritual illustrations explaining spiritual truths I accept the entire book as spiritual, and often best understood in light of the epistles, or other books of the Bible.

For example the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 3:12  "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Revelation 21: 1-4 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Hebrews 12:22-24 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

John and the writer of Hebrews are speaking of the same thing; only the language in Hebrews is not from the vision that John was given. Notice the present tense of his wording -ye are come to the heavenly Jerusalem. The writer is not looking for it in the distance; he sees it as a present reality. How? By the blood of Jesus!

The heavenly Jerusalem is not seen as a literal city of brick and mortar, or literal gold for that matter, but rather the writer sees the Heavenly Jerusalem as the place that God’s people now dwell in Christ - in the New Covenant! As literal, or "natural" Jerusalem was the earthly place of residency for the priesthood in the Old Covenant, and so corresponds to that covenant, so now do we as a "royal priesthood" (1Peter 2:9) dwell in the everlasting Covenant that Jesus established by His Cross!

Establishing again that we are now, and not later, seated in heavenly places Paul said in Ephesians 2: 4-6, "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

Notice the wording again is not that God will raise us up so that we will one day sit in heavenly places, but that He has (or hath) -past tense - already done these things. So what are these Heavenly places? Paul is using the same illustration that was given in Hebrews, and so establishing again the heavenly place, or heavenly Jerusalem as the writer of Hebrews called it, is the New Covenant. This is where we live.

Can this be demonstrated in Revelation? I believe it can if we remain consistent in the definitions the Bible writers used. Being consistent it would follow that what the New Jerusalem is in one book (those who dwell in the New Covenant), it must also be in another. Keeping this in mind I would like to take a look at a few scriptures again.

Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

If the new heaven, or New Jerusalem, is the New Covenant in Ephesians, and Hebrews, then what John’s Revelation is revealing to us is also about the Covenants.

to be continued...

[psalmistsinger]

continued.....

John is speaking about the same thing that Paul speaks of so often -the changing of the covenants. The Old Covenant is passed away being fulfilled in Christ.

Another confirmation is found in the latter part of the verse "there was no more sea". Thinking naturally we would assume John means there is no large body of water, but spiritually speaking, and allowing the scriptures to interpret themselves, I believe the true nature of the sea is more readily found in 1Kings 7. The chapter is about the furnishings of the temple (obviously Old Covenant) in Jerusalem. We read in verses 23-25– "And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast. It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward"  

The "sea" in the temple was for outer washings so those doing service could cleanse themselves before going into the presence of God. What is being revealed in John’s vision, consistently considering scripture, is there is no need for a "sea" in this New Covenant! It is Jesus who has cleansed us, and by His grace washed us from sin! We cannot cleanse ourselves! There is no more "sea" because this is not a covenant of works, but a covenant grace through faith! The Lord God Himself does the cleansing, and anything else is an insult to the Spirit of Grace!

Rev 21: 2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

This is the same as Hebrews 12:22 – we in the New Covenant, the church, are the New Jerusalem that John is revealing, that needs no "sea".

Rev 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God"

This is the relationship that each Christian has with God. God IS in with us, and He DOES dwell in us. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" 1 Corinthians 3:16

Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

The former things, the Old Covenant, have passed away. No more tears and crying as men try to justify themselves with the weight of rules and regulations from the Law of Moses. No sorrow from never being good enough, no pain of laboring under a law that never justified, or saved a soul. The Old Covenant is no longer binding – rejoice in the grace of our God! The Law came by Moses, but grace and truth by Jesus Christ!

Rev 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful"

Old things, the Covenant of works, are passed away! All things are made new in Jesus!

Rev 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

It is done! The law satisfied, and completed by the living Christ! "It is finished" John 19:30.  So that now "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38.
Rev 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son"

We only overcome by faith in Christ! He is our God, and we are His children purchased with His own Blood! Trusting in our works, or the works of the Old Covenant, is to be outside the Grace of God. This I believe is what is being revealed in the Revelation of Jesus Christ – He is God and there is no way to eternal life but through Him.

I believe it is the same in Revelation 20. The white throne is not something to come but, as is Revelation 21, descriptive of something that is.

Rev 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Heaven, the first heaven -the Old Covenant, and earth, those who trusted in it, are fled away from Him. There is no place for the Old Covenant, or anyone who would approach God by works, in the New Covenant.

The throne of God is in our hearts –we are the temple of God. Where He is Holy.

Rev 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

All stand before God. As the Book of Life is where the names of believers are written by virtue of the New Covenant, it is the Old Covenant where men are judged according to their works. As The Book of Life is the New Covenant, it is consistent then that the "books" are the law and the prophets – the Old Covenant.

Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"

Another reference to the Old Covenant as the "Sea" –the system of works – along with death and hell – the state or place of those with out Christ – give up the dead where they are judged according to their works.

Rev 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Judgment is all that awaits those would be justified by the works of the Law.

Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Only those who justified by Christ, and not works, walk in Life!

As I said earlier, eschatology isn’t my strongest area. I don’t have all the answers, and can’t pretend to have unraveled Revelation anymore than anyone else. I do understand God’s grace, and that most of the New Testament is dealing with the Covenant’s, and the primacy of the New over the Old.  It is my opinion this extends into the book of Revelation as well.

I am not able to be on the board as often as I would like, and I don't expect to be much agreed with on this topic, but I hope to have added a thoughtful post.

In His Grace

[Reba]

Psalmistsinger,

 Nice to have another around in agreement  

Your post make clear sense to me thanks for taking the time to write.

[Bronzesnake]

do I have a relationship with the Lord my God through Jesus Christ? I can be wrong about eschatology -I must not be wrong about trusting Jesus. I do not say that to minimize those to whom eschatology, whatever the view, is of prime importance. I am only being honest about my own simple understanding.

 Amen, I agree 100%

 However, I do take the bible literally. I do take Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation literally.

 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Revelation 1:1-3

The "revealing" of Jesus to show things that must shortly (a distinct time frame) come to pass was given to John in the words of this prophecy for the time was "at hand". Notice the word "signify".  The Revelation was signified by the following vision, or series of visions, and was written down as John was instructed in 1:11, "What thou seest, write in a book."

So were the visions literal or spiritual? I believe they were spiritual. The New Covenant is spiritual. God is Spirit, Jesus said the words that I speak they are Spirit and they are Life. The first Adam was earthly; the second Adam is the Lord from Heaven. Jesus told Nicodemus that if he didn't understand when He spoke to him of earthly things how would he understand if He spoke to him of heavenly things. I believe Revelation is speaking to us symbolically of heavenly things.

 I believe you are using the word "visions" out of the context from which they are used in Revelation. The word vision means sight - John saw future events unfold in front of his eyes. There is no indication whatsoever that these "visions" are anything less than literal, future events.

 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"

 I read this literally. God wanted to show (not just John) His "servants" (plural) things which, "must" (the word "must" reinforces a literal event which will happen in the near future) shortly come to pass;

 As I have already pointed out, at the point that Revelation 1:1-3 is occurring, John is told he has been taken in spirit, to witness a future end times prophecy. We are told that John is taken into the future in order to record everything he sees, so that God's servants can know what is going to happen in this future end times age.

 "John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

 We can not see spiritual things with our eyes, yet here, John is instructed to watch, and to record what he "saw"

 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand"

 This is not a spiritual "lesson" it is a "prophecy"

 Prophecy: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

Please allow me to deal with "the time is at hand"

 In Rev 1 through Rev 3 John is taken through the entire Church age, where Jesus gives very specific warnings and blessings to each Church.

 At the conclusion of these seven Church ages, the faithful bible believing Christians are Raptured. Let's look at a couple of verses, which corroborate this Rapture.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 In Rev 4, John is at this exact point and time in the future when 1Th 4:16-17 takes place.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  
 
This is the resurrection of the faithful Christians. We can be certain of this because these twelve Old Testament elders, and twelve New Testament elders are depicted clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold

Luke 14:14 clearly states that we will not receive our reward until after the resurrection of the just.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.  

 Taken together, these verses clearly show a Raptured church in Heaven, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold having been through the resurrection of the just!

 Not only that, but we know the tribulation does not occur until Rev 6! So, this proves a pre-trib Rapture!

To Continue...

[Bronzesnake]

 Jesus Himself gave us a clue to corroborate this pre-trib Rapture in John 11:24

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.  

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:  
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?  

 Why would Jesus say that?
The first part makes perfect sense. “He who believes in me. though he were dead, yet shall he live.” No problem here right?

 But what did Jesus mean when He said… "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?

 This in a direct corroboration of the Rapture verses from 1Thes 4:16-17 Those who were dead when He calls from the clouds will be taken up, and then, those who remain alive at that same time will also be taken up to meet Him in the clouds!!

 We are told to "comfort" each other with this good news...

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I think most would agree there is not a literal woman out in space clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. Most would agree there is no literal seven headed, ten horned, crowned beast somewhere out in the sea awaiting for the appropriate time to make itself known. Most accept these as spiritual illustrations. Being full of spiritual illustrations explaining spiritual truths I accept the entire book as spiritual, and often best understood in light of the epistles, or other books of the Bible.

 My friend. The bible does have "figurative" language throughout, but wherever figurative language is used, there is most certainly biblical explanation of the literal meaning.

For example -

Most would agree there is no literal seven headed, ten horned, crowned beast somewhere out in the sea awaiting for the appropriate time to make itself known.

I disagree. I submit that most would understand the literal meaning of such figurative language, because it is found in the Bible.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 If we simply stop reading the bible at these verses we can come to an erroneous conclusion that these "visions" are spiritual, or metaphorical. However, if we read the entire chapters we can get the meaning of the literal events, which these figurative verses are describing.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

There we have it. The ten horns represent ten future leaders of ten nations (European Union, which has ten permanent members - all were part of the Roman Empire of antiquity) which will be headed by satan when he takes the world reins.

 
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Their is literal meanings for these "figurative' visions which John "saw" with his own eyes, and was commanded by Jesus Himself, to write down everything he witnessed. What possible "spiritual" meanings could be extrapolated from these verses? If these were "spiritual" then each individual human would be left to make up his or her own interpretation of the scriptures - we would in effect, become God, deciding what personal doctrine we would "customize" in order to best fit into our personal lifestyles. Our God is a literal God. He does not play "spiritual" head games, which would only serve to cause mass confusion.

Jesus took John into the future (Jesus can do that) and showed John the terrifying future world events, which would (at that time) soon come to pass. Clearly, Russia, Asia and the Arab nations are described unleashing devastating attacks against Israel. Clearly, these attackers are completely annihilated by God - so much so that the Jews will take seven years to bury the dead. These are literal battles, which are described in unambiguous, and meticulous detail, and easily understood by any who would simply "hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein"

 I could go on for many more pages, but I believe my point is either made now, or will never be made.

I agree, the main thing is that we accept Jesus into our hearts, and ask for forgiveness of our sins. Then we must actually repent, and fight the good fight against our sinful nature.

It's been a pleasure debating this with my friends here, and I personally have no ill feelings or resent toward any other person's personal belief. However, I do feel it is incumbent upon all bible-believing Christians to heed the warnings of Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.  

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.  

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.  

 This is a direct reference to the Rapture.
The second coming will not be a secret. We are told exactly how many days from the signing of the seven year peace treaty that will pass until Jesus returns with His Raptured Saints from Heaven, as described in Rev 19:14

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.  

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.  

Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.  

[Reba]

Rev 1:1  The Revelation602 of Jesus2424 Christ,5547 which3739 God2316 gave1325 unto him,846 to show1166 unto his848 servants1401 things which3739 must1163 shortly1722, 5034 come to pass;1096 and2532 he sent649 and signified4591 it by1223 his848 angel32 unto his848 servant1401 John:2491


G1722ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

G5034
τάχος
tachos
takh'-os
From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste: - + quickly, + shortly, + speedily

G5036ταχύς
tachus
takh-oos'
Of uncertain affinity; fleet, that is, (figuratively) prompt or ready: - swift.

Rev 1:3  Blessed3107 is he that readeth,314 and2532 they that hear191 the3588 words3056 of this prophecy,4394 and2532 keep5083 those things which are written1125 therein:1722, 846 for1063 the3588 time2540 is at hand.1451



G1451
ἐγγύς
eggus
eng-goos'
From a primary verb ἄγχω agchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time): - from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

If anyone here believes shortly to be 2000+ years... I could use a loan of a few thousand and will pay you back shortly.    ..Literaly the scriptures say shortly and the diffination of shortly is posted above.

[Reba]

The number and intensity of earthquakes this century is at a level higher than any other time in history.  A staggering number of seismic events occur around the world daily.  The earthquake seismic monitor IRIS shows all major earthquakes for the last year.  Indicated by yellow and red circles, the seismic events of the last 15 days provides strong evidence of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7 in our day.  By contrast, in the years from 1890 to 1900 there was only one major earthquake in the world

USGS..

Q: Why are we having so many earthquakes? Has earthquake activity been increasing? Does this mean a big one is going to hit? OR We haven't had any earthquakes in a long time; does this mean that the pressure is building up and there will be a big one?
A: Although it may seem that we are having more earthquakes, earthquakes of magnitude 7.0 or greater have remained fairly constant throughout this century and, according to our records, have actually seemed to decrease in recent years. A partial explanation may lie in the fact that in the last twenty years, we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year. This is because of the tremendous increase in the number of seismograph stations in the world and the many improvements in global communications. In 1931, there were about 350 stations operating in the world; today, there are more that 4,000 stations and the data now comes in rapidly from these stations by telex, computer and satellite. This increase in the number of stations and the more timely receipt of data has allowed us and other seismological centers to locate many small earthquakes which were undetected in earlier years, and we are able to locate earthquakes more rapidly. The NEIC now locates about 12,000 to 14,000 earthquakes each year or approximately 35 per day. Also, because of the improvements in communications and the increased interest in natural disasters, the public now learns about more earthquakes. According to long-term records (since about 1900), we expect about 18 major earthquakes (7.0 - 7.9) and one great earthquake (8.0 or above) in any given year. However, let's take a look at what has happened in the past 32 years, from 1969 through 2001, so far. Our records show that 1992, and 1995-1997 were the only years that we have reached or exceeded the long-term average number of major earthquakes since 1971. In 1970 and in 1971 we had 20 and 19 major earthquakes, respectively, but in other years the total was in many cases well below the 18 per year which we may expect based on the long-term average.
http://interactive2.usgs.gov/faq/list_faq_by_category/get_answer.asp?id=153

[Bronzesnake]

If anyone here believes shortly to be 2000+ years... I could use a loan of a few thousand and will pay you back shortly.    ..Literaly the scriptures say shortly and the diffination of shortly is posted above.

 If the time period were actually 2,000 years I would be in complete agreement. However, I keep trying to explain that John is seeing visions from the "future" In that future time period these things are about to occur shortly. In fact, John witnesses each and every one of the events described in Revelation. Revelation describes events, which occur over a seven-year period. So from the point where Jesus made that "shortly" statement, the actual events did occur shortly thereafter, and John was there to see them with his own two eyes, and was commanded to record what he “saw”

 I don't know how much plainer I can make this.

 If that's the only hanging point, then what about all the other prophetic visions John witnessed? Did all those terrifying events take place?

 Also, we must listen to Jesus' own warnings about what to look for in the end times. He didn't say when one, or some of these things come to pass. He said when all of these things come to pass - as in, at the same time. So we can't simply say, "well, wars and rumours of wars have happened throughout history" or "we've always had earthquakes"
This is the only time in history where all these "end times" prophecies are occurring at the same time.
We are witnessing record heat waves, record cold snaps, record famines, record diseases, record volcanic activity, record earthquakes (your own post states - we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year ) we have record floods, record droughts, record wars, record hurricanes, record tornadoes etc.

 What more do we need to see before we take Jesus at His word? All these things are happening in our lifetimes, we are witnessing it personally, but we still refuse to believe Jesus.

 Jesus told us that the Jews would be tossed from their country, and would be scattered to the four corners of the world. That happened in 70A.D. Jesus told the disciples that the Temple would be destroyed and that not one single stone would be left on top of another. This was utterly unthinkable to any man woman or child in Israel, because the Temple was on top of a massive stone block "mountain" which Herrod built, and the Temple itself was huge. No one, and I suspect even the disciples couldn’t imagine it happening. Yet, in 70 A.D. Titus and his Roman Legions did exactly that. The Temple was destroyed and the Jews were tossed.

 Jesus didn't stop there. Jesus told His disciples that another great sign of the end times would be when the Jews would return back to their homeland, Israel. That did not happen until 1948, and in 1967 the Jews were finally able to gain possession of the Holy City of Jerusalem. Jesus said that the generation which lived to see the Jews back in control of Israel and Jerusalem would be the end times generation which would "not pass" before His Triumphant return.

 It is a fact that archaeologists excavated the Temple and to the astonishment of the world, they discovered that the destruction was so devastating, that not one stone was left on top of another.

 Roman soldiers actually knocked each stone to the ground in order to scrape the gold, which had melted and seeped between the cracks away.

 These prophecies do not line up with Preterism. Unless you can find historical records which show the complete flattening and destruction of every mountain and building on earth - the utter annihilation of the Russian, Arab, and Asian armies. You would be hard pressed to prove the Jews had secretly returned home and gained complete control of Israel immediately following their deportation to the four corners of the earth by Titus and his armies.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 Were do we see this in the history books of 70A.D.?

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 This happened in 70 A.D.?

 I hope my posts are not coming across as ill spirited. It is truly not my intention. We all believe in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, as we have already stated. That's all we need.

[Reba]

I will get into trouble if i continue so this will be my last here for a while.....

What more do we need to see before we take Jesus at His word? All these things are happening in our lifetimes, we are witnessing it personally, but we still refuse to believe Jesus

Luke 11:50-52

50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
KJV

Matt 23:31-36

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
KJV

(your own post states - we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year )

sheesh

[Bronzesnake]

Reba my sister.

I am not in the least bit upset at you or your ideas about the scriptures. I would hope the same goes for you towards me.

The concept of a forum is for folks to debate topics. There could be no debate if we all agreed with each other.

It's is impossible for us to convey our attitude toward each other through an anonamously wirtten message such as it is on foums. At times, we may get the idea that a poster is being pushy, or condenscending, or self-rightious, when in fact the exact opposite is true. I know this first hand. I have mistook certain posts directed at me I have learned from such experiences.

I would love to hear your explanations for the scriptures which you posted. It's virtually impossible for me to know from what context these verses are relevent in relation to your opinion.

However, if you are feeling uncomfortable about things, then I completely understand Reba. Let me just say this - even though we have different opinions about prophecy, I do respect your opinions, and I have no doubt that you love Jesus with all your heart.

God bless you Reba.

John