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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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Poll
Question: Is The Pre-Trib Rapture Theory Biblical
No - 6 (26.1%)
Yes - 12 (52.2%)
Don't Know - 5 (21.7%)
Dont Care - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 20

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Author Topic: Rapture  (Read 23833 times)
Reba
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« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2005, 09:56:23 AM »

Quote
It's ok to read books, but if they don't line up perfectly with the scriptures, I toss them.
Jesus Christ is the final authority, not me, not an author.
 

 
Wow  and we thought this day would never come!  Bronze i could not agree with you more !
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2005, 02:46:46 PM »

Bronzesnake,

The above portion of Scripture and others speak volumes. There are many facts that can be extracted directly from the Scriptures, compiled, and compared with other portions of Scripture that address the same topic.

If the author or person doing the Bible study lists the Scriptures as the authority for a thought and lets the reader compare the thought to the authority of the Scripture, that's what I want to read when I do my own study. I'm not familiar with many of the authors mentioned these days. Most of my favorite studies on this topic and others are from men of God who are already home with their Lord and Saviour.

As an obvious result for me, my favorite studies heavily use references from the Holy Bible. We have many threads on Christians Unite that are heavily documented from the Holy Bible. In that way, facts can be established that are not simply a matter of opinion. However, the differences still appear with some who choose to call a portion of Scripture a metaphor or something other than literal. Other differences involve the time-line and sequence of events in Bible Prophecies, and these types of differences should be expected.

I choose to take the Holy Bible's descriptions of the Rapture, the Tribulation Period, the Second Coming of Jesus, and the 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ as literal, so I call them facts. I would be quick to point out that differences of opinion on these topics should never be an excuse to break fellowship between Christians.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 13:20-21 ASV  Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Nicely stated as usual my brother. I agree totally!  Cheesy
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2005, 02:48:15 PM »

Quote
It's ok to read books, but if they don't line up perfectly with the scriptures, I toss them.
Jesus Christ is the final authority, not me, not an author.
 

 
Wow  and we thought this day would never come!  Bronze i could not agree with you more !

 Is this the begining of a renewed friendship my sister?
I've been waiting for this day to come. You know I have a fond spot in my heart for you! Smiley
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Shammu
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« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2005, 05:57:01 PM »

Quote
It's ok to read books, but if they don't line up perfectly with the scriptures, I toss them.
Jesus Christ is the final authority, not me, not an author.
 

 
Wow  and we thought this day would never come!  Bronze i could not agree with you more !

 Is this the begining of a renewed friendship my sister?
I've been waiting for this day to come. You know I have a fond spot in my heart for you! Smiley
Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2005, 09:08:05 PM »

 Grin   Cheesy

YES!

Time For A

Group Hug!!

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Reba
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« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2005, 09:45:42 PM »

 Tongue
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2005, 02:10:03 AM »

Tongue

 I haven't had to work this hard since I was courting my wife!!

 Come on Reba! Send me your address so I can send you some flowers!

 
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2005, 02:11:16 AM »

[size=12]GOT YA![/size]  Tongue Cheesy
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2005, 02:12:46 AM »

 This time is for real...

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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2005, 02:15:17 AM »

 This I'll have to do...I'm broke! Undecided

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Reba
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« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2005, 09:35:48 AM »

  Yikes enough flowers for a Funeral
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Reba
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« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2005, 09:39:40 AM »

 
Quote
Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming
by: Thomas Ice

2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "Bema Judgment" from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Since such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.


2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Ice has stated and, most here agree with Ice, that some how 2 Cor  5 :10 fills  a gap in time.  We seem to agree that the scriptures are the  authority not an author. So tell me where does 2 Cor 5 10 tell us of a passage of time.
 






Quote
Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (illustrated as "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ); and the bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming accompanying Christ to the earth Rev. 19:11-18, it follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes. This requires an interval of time which pretribulationism handles well.

Ice again states this requires an interval of time. The scriptures are the authority not Ice and the scriptures do not speak of an interval of time.

Quote
Believers who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation are not translated at Christ's second advent but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children Isa. 65:20-25. This would be impossible if all saints were translated at the second coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. Because pretribulationists have at least a seven-year interval between the removal of the church at the rapture and the return of Christ to the earth, this is not a problem because millions of people will be saved during the interval and thus be available to populate the millennium in their natural bodies in order to fulfill Scripture.


Following the theory of the tribulation how ever could ‘saints’ have a job or build a house and carry on ‘ordinary occupations’ ? They would need the mark of the beast to do such and then they wouldn’t be saints correct?

Quote
It would be impossible for the judgment of the Gentiles to take place after the second coming if the rapture and second coming are not separated by a gap of time. How would both saved and unsaved, still in their natural bodies, be separated in judgment, if all living believers are translated at the second coming. This would be impossible if the translation takes place at the second coming, but it is solved through a pretribulational gap.


The above is conjecture not scripture. I could not find the statement ‘judgment of the gentiles’ in the Bible. Does any here know the Book and chapter it can be found in?

Quote
A time interval is needed so that God's program for the church, a time when Jew and Gentile are united in one body not become commingled in any way with His unfinished and future plan for Israel during the tribulation.  The pretribulational rapture of the church fulfills a biblical need to not only see a distinction between the translation of Church Age saints at the rapture, before the second coming, but it also handles without difficulty the necessity of a time-gap which harmonizes a number of future biblical events. This requirement of a seven-year gap of time adds another plank to the likelihood that pretribulationism best reflects the biblical viewpoint.


  More conjecture, this again is not scripture but Thomas Ice’s view of scripture.  God is the creator of time. How many here will say God is outside of time and yet fall in to believing God needs time. What do the scriptures say?

Ice’s statement was about 460 words . The closes to scripture is
Quote
:Revelation 19:7-10[/b] pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (illustrated as "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ)

Which is only about 30 words. Again I ask what do the scripture say.
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2005, 03:33:43 PM »

I'm almost hesitant to respond to this thread. I don't want to upset anyone, so let me begin by saying that the following is my "opinion" of what I believe about the Rapture based on my understanding of the scriptures.

I guess it would be best to state my beliefs. I believe in a pre tribulation rapture of all faithful bible-believing Christians.
 Here is my scriptural reference for this belief.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 These verses clearly describe Jesus descending from Heaven "with a shout" and the "voice of the archangel" and with the "trump of God"

 Immediately following this, the "dead in Christ" shall rise first.
This is a resurrection - the dead rise.
Then, we, which are "alive" and "remain" - What does this "remain" mean? I believe it is in reference to those Christians who are alive at the time Jesus descends from heaven.

 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 So, Jesus descends from heaven with a "shout" with the voice of the "archangel" and with the "trump of God" and raises the dead and the living up to meet Him in the clouds - this is a very important detail, because we meet Jesus in the clouds. This shows that Jesus has not set His foot on the Mount of Olives at this point. He is waiting for us in the "clouds" This cannot be the second coming, because Jesus has not set foot on the earth.

Consider the following verses.

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.  

 I believe these two verses are very important as corroboration for a pre trib rapture.

 These verses describe judgment of the resurrected saints.
Luke 14:14 states clearly that we will not receive our reward until the resurrection.

 Now take a look at Rev 4

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 Now, this voice which John hears sounded like a "trumpet" which is exactly what 1Th 4:16 describes. The voice commands "come up hither" - so John is "raised up" just like those in the 1Th 4 verses. There are many bible scholars who believe these are simultaneous occurrences. This is also what I believe (I am not a scholar  Tongue) although I am a bible student.

If there were additional scriptures, which showed the future vision, which John was describing was in fact the resurrection event, and that it preceded the Tribulation, we could wrap things up nicely right? Well there is. Have a look at the following verses.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 Here we have it. The twenty-four elders - twelve, which represent the Old Testament saints, and twelve, which represent the New Testament saints. The important details are - 1) they are clothed in white raiment

     - 2) they had on their heads crowns of gold.
 These two details prove that they have been judged by Jesus at the resurrection of the just, and have received their
reward 2Co 5:10 and Luk 14:14 thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

 These Rapture verses are found in Rev 4

 The Tribulation does not begin until Rev 6, so the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation.

 
Quote
Following the theory of the tribulation how ever could ‘saints’ have a job or build a house and carry on ‘ordinary occupations’ ? They would need the mark of the beast to do such and then they wouldn’t be saints correct

 Very often in the scriptures, and especially when dealing with biblical prophecy, we are able to extrapolate God's message through reasonable deduction. This isn’t to say we can insert our own fanciful theories, but through reasonable deduction we can get at the meaning.

 Consider the following verses for example...

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 In the above verse we see the actual second coming of King Jesus. It doesn’t actually say “second coming” but by reading the description given, we can reasonably extrapolate it’s meaning.

To Continue...
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2005, 03:34:22 PM »

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

 The above two verses identify Him as King Jesus.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 This verse, in exact opposition to the Rapture verses of 1Th 4:14-18   which had faithful servants being lifted up (Raptured) to Heaven, has faithful saints following King Jesus "from" Heaven. There is no mistaking who these "armies" are. We are described as wearing "fine linen, white and clean"

 So in Rev 4, we are seen in Heaven. We return from Heaven with King Jesus after the seven-year Tribulation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 The above verse describes those who came to accept Jesus after the Rapture - they were left behind as non-believers or as "weekend Christians" that refused to follow the rules of Jesus. Unrepentant homosexual "Christians, adulterers, thieves, sexual deviants, liars etc. These folks realised their mistake after the Rapture, and refused to accept satan and his mark. Many of these people were converted to Christ through the two witnesses and the 144,000 converted Jews, who God miraculously protects throughout the entire Tribulation as the following scriptures confirm...

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.  

 Some of these, in fact many, will be beheaded for their refusal to accept satan and his mark, as Rev 20:4 describes. It also tells us that those who were beheaded for their belief in Jesus, "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." which immediately begins at the conclusion of the destruction of satan's armies through the brightness of His coming. So, those who were executed for their new found faith in Jesus, were resurrected, and that ended the "first resurrection"

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.  

 Those who died without Jesus would remain dead until Jesus resurrects (second resurrection) them at the final judgment, when they will be tossed into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.  

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  

 Why would satan be held for a thousand years if all God's saints were already saved?

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.  

 Where did all these people come from? These are the descendants of the people who went through the entire seven year Tribulation, and did not worship satan, nor did they receive his mark. If they did, they would have been destroyed along with all satan's other friends at the brightness of His coming. They would have remained dead throughout the entire thousand year reign, as Rev 20:5 states. Many were beheaded, but many must have survived without being caught. These will also be the descendants of the protected 144,000 Jews, who were not executed because they had the mark of God on their foreheads.

 So for many generations, there would be human life on earth during the entire thousand-year reign of Jesus. These would not "reign" with Jesus. We know this, because Rev 20:4 tells us only the saints which followed Jesus out of Heaven at the second coming, and "those who were beheaded  for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" would reign with Him for the thousand years.

 So again, why would Jesus let satan out? Why didn't Jesus simply toss satan into the lake of fire as soon as He returned?
The answer is free will None of us come to Jesus by His force. Jesus says we must "freely" accept Him. Same for these generations of humans who have been born during this thousand-year period.

 Incredibly, there are many who fall for satan's lies as the scriptures clearly state the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.  

 Saying that satan cannot be underestimated is a serious understatement!

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 The verse above describes the end game, when King Jesus finally pits an end to satan and his followers for ever, as the following verses describe...

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Following that, we are in for an indescribable eternity with our King Jesus!! Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin

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Reba
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« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2005, 12:11:54 AM »



I will not be able to put together a post as well written as Bornze's but i will restate my beliefs.

I guess you all would clasify me as post trib as in WAY post trib....Many of you here know my view as a orthodox preterest. The simplest way to say it is, I understand most of Revelation to have happened.  BEFORE YOU ALL KILL ME I DO KNOW HE WILL RETURN.  I believe 'John' to be describing the seage of Jerusalem 70 AD. I know many will not axcept the early dating of the Revelation but i do. Scripture back up for my thoughts ......


Rev 1:1-3
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

The leveling of the city was the end of the , for lack of better words, temple age. The generation that did the killing of Jesus, Those priest etc were done in. Matt 23. God distroyed the temple built by man God ended the old covenant.


The most importiant ''rapture' scriptures to me are....

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They are a quote of Jesus our Lord God ....I want my thoughts to fit into His Word and also to fit into His words.
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