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Author Topic: New Heavens and a New Earth  (Read 3687 times)
TrevorL
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« on: May 13, 2005, 05:58:35 AM »

2 Peter 3:9-13 (KJV): "9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

The immediate context speaks of a previous heaven and earth, the world of Noah's time. Peter compares the Noahic heaven and earth with the present heaven and earth. This shows that Peter is not speaking of the destruction of our globe, but the expression "new heavens and a new earth" is speaking of a new order of things, the replacing of the kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God.
2 Peter 3:5-7 (KJV): "5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The expression "new heavens and a new earth" also occurs in Isaiah 65:17-20 and in this quotation there is mention of mortal inhabitants of the earth and sinners. Refer also Isaiah 66:22-24 where the recent judgments will still be evident to those who go up to Jerusalem to worship.
Isaiah 65:17-20 (KJV): "17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

The same prophet Isaiah speaks of judgment on the nations, but not to the utter destruction of the earth and its inhabitants.
Isaiah 2:4 (KJV): "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Isaiah 26:9-10 (KJV): "9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD."


We should compare what Peter says in his epistle concerning the destruction of the present heaven and earth and what he said in Acts 3 concerning refreshing and restoration when Christ returns.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): "19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (RV restoration) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

The address that Peter gave in Acts 3 was as a result of the healing of the lame man.
Acts 3:8,9,16 (KJV): "And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:"
"16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all."


The healing of the lame man was a sign, it demonstrated the fact that Jesus whom they had crucified, was now in Heaven, and had poured out the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles Peter and John to heal this man. This miracle endorsed their message concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus and salvation through the name of Jesus.

A similar expression occurs in Isaiah 35 concerning the healing of the lame, but the context has numerous occurences of the idea of refreshing. Peter could have been alluding to this prophecy in his speech in Acts 3.
Isaiah 35:1-10 (KJV): "1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God. 3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. 4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. 7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. 8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: 10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away."

The healing of the lame man is a token that Jesus will return, and the earth and mankind will be refreshed and there will be a restoration of all things. Yes, there will be judgment and some destruction, and the symbol of fire is used, but the net effect upon the earth and its inhabitants will be refreshing and restoratiion of all things. Jesus will bring new heavens and a new earth, the kingdom of God upon earth.

Kind regards
Trevor
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2005, 11:37:12 AM »

2 Peter 3:9-13 (KJV): "9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

 I must disagree with your assertion that these events are figurative my friend.. Read the bold text and compare it with the following verses.

 Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  


 Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  


 Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  


 Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  


 Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?  

 The verses you quoted are not figurative. Rev 6:13-17 clearly describes a literal cataclysmic even occurring. The situation was so catastrophic that every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Every living person was terrified and tried to hide, even begging for death in order to escape the Wrath of God.

 Why would this event described in both Peter and revelation be literal and the event describing the destruction of the "old earth" found in the very same verse of Peter, as well as Revelation be figurative? It doesn't make sense because these events are literal.

 Read what John saw.

 Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 John describes a literal landscape, one without a sea! This is not figurative my friend, Jesus will destroy the old corrupt, cursed earth and replace it with the one He created before sin came into the picture.

  Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;


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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2005, 04:16:34 PM »


 I must disagree with your assertion that these events are figurative my friend.. Read the bold text and compare it with the following verses.

 Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  


 Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  


 Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  


 Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  


 Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?  

 The verses you quoted are not figurative. Rev 6:13-17 clearly describes a literal cataclysmic even occurring. The situation was so catastrophic that every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Every living person was terrified and tried to hide, even begging for death in order to escape the Wrath of God.

 
Bronzesnake


One big problem with taking this literally.

If any of the "stars of heaven" even came anywhere near our solar system, not to mention the earth itself, our planet would be pulled out of orbit and every living thing would be dead in a matter of seconds. No one would be "hiding".

Revelation was written during a period of persecution, and is specific to it's time. It is not prophecy, it is an example of apocalyptic literature.
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2005, 05:36:20 PM »

Quote
Revelation was written during a period of persecution, and is specific to it's time. It is not prophecy, it is an example of apocalyptic literature.


Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2005, 07:53:52 PM »

Amen PR.  To finish the book...


Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2005, 08:58:52 PM »

Amen PR.  To finish the book...


Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Grace and Peace!

Shortly??!! Quickly!!?? What was the future to John is now the past to us. There is nothing in Revelation about our future.

How about addressing my main point? About the pre-scientific idea that stars could to fall to earth, and . We would all be dead long long before any star got close to earth.

Besides what about the absolute impossibility of people "hiding" when stars fall on earth?
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2005, 09:19:05 PM »

Amen PR.  To finish the book...


Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Grace and Peace!

Shortly??!! Quickly!!?? What was the future to John is now the past to us. There is nothing in Revelation about our future.

How about addressing my main point? About the pre-scientific idea that stars could to fall to earth, and . We would all be dead long long before any star got close to earth.

Besides what about the absolute impossibility of people "hiding" when stars fall on earth?

Dyskolos,

What is thought to be possible or impossible to man means nothing to God.

Much of the Bible Prophecy of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled, but it will be at God's appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Peter 1:18-19  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2005, 10:16:00 PM »

Amen, Beps. Scientific laws mean nothing to God.

Luk 18:27  And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.



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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2005, 10:26:39 PM »

Amen PR.  To finish the book...


Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Grace and Peace!

Shortly??!! Quickly!!?? What was the future to John is now the past to us. There is nothing in Revelation about our future.

How about addressing my main point? About the pre-scientific idea that stars could to fall to earth, and . We would all be dead long long before any star got close to earth.

Besides what about the absolute impossibility of people "hiding" when stars fall on earth?

You don't believe in God do you? If you did, you'd see the naivety of your comment. Which is more impossible - God created the Heavens and the Earth, or, God rolls up the stars of the heavens like a scroll and sends some meteors crashing down upon the face of the earth, at which time, God made it so that men could not die? How is it that God can be limited?

 Your comprehension and knowledge of the prophecies in their entirety severely limits your ability to put these literal-Biblical events in their correct timeline and order. I suggest you study before you make your mind up as to whether God is to be taken seriously and His Word Literal, or relegated to the bumbling intellect of man.


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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2005, 12:58:06 AM »

I have been to many a scientific/astronmy websites that speak about falling stars.   Have you ever used the term falling star, knowing full well it was a meteoroid burning in earths atmosphere?  Sure you have!

John was a first century man, using first century language to describe future events he was instructed to document.   What he saw obviously resembled what we would call falling stars today, and even adds to the visual explanation "as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind."    No doubt seeing numerous "falling stars" as it were.

Rev 6:14  The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Obviously Large gaseous stars is not what is meant by the text.   My guess would be large meteors impacting the earth, or perhaps even a nuclear asault?   Whatever it is, looks like a bunch of falling stars to a 1st century man.   The result of it causes the sky to split apart like scroll, and mountains and Islands to move out of their places.   Again, like a scroll.   He reuses this verbage throughout.   Something like or looks like.

Quote
Besides what about the absolute impossibility of people "hiding" when stars fall on earth?

This should be self explanitory now.   Nuclear attack, people would take cover.  Meteor onslaught, people would take cover.

How do we know this is yet future?   Because at the end of it all, Christ himself returns to rule over the nations of earth.   We know this has not happened yet.  We also know something like numerous falling stars have not moved mountains and islands out of their place either.

Quote
What was the future to John is now the past to us.

There is no evidence that all John spoke of happened in history.  If so, whe did Jesus return as He promised?  When did something like stars fall to the earth like figs from a tree?  When did great white throne judgment take place?  When did a third of the trees burn with fire?   When did a 3rd of sea life die?

Rev 22:6  And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
Rev 22:7  "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."

Take place soon?  Behold I am coming quickly?   He hasn't returned yet, so we can take it that quickly and soon are part of Gods timetable, not ours.

2Pe 3:8  But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

It is not my desire to argue these points, because whether we agree on the many points in Revelation matters little.

However, I would like to ask you....do you know the Lord Dyskolos?    Have brought your sin to Him and accepted His mercy and forgivness in your life?

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2005, 01:25:13 AM »

Amen PR.  To finish the book...


Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Grace and Peace!

Shortly??!! Quickly!!?? What was the future to John is now the past to us. There is nothing in Revelation about our future.

How about addressing my main point? About the pre-scientific idea that stars could to fall to earth, and . We would all be dead long long before any star got close to earth.

Besides what about the absolute impossibility of people "hiding" when stars fall on earth?
Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

Dyskolos, can you not see?
1 Timothy 4:14 [u]Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy[/u], with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2005, 02:29:45 AM »

I remember a time when most Bible thumping Christians did not believe dinasores ever walked the earth.

The Words of God are simple He said  things would happen shortly and the time was at hand.  Take this challange ..do a word search of  shortly and of at hand compare the context meanings.  

So often we force the scripture to fit our understanding  instead of accepting it as written.  I do wish we could all wake up in the morning and NOT have any  sort of scripture knowledge ,none, zero, nadda, not from a movie, book, scripture track ,zero.  AND then pick up the Word and read what He wrote, wiht and unlittered mind and open spirit. I believe we would be in more agreement, and from every side  would see things differently.
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2005, 06:10:30 AM »

Howdy Bronzesnake,

Greetings. There are many views of the events surrounding the return of Christ. It is difficult at times to determine what is literal and figurative, and even though I respect your view, nevertheless I believe in the literal fulfilment of many of the OT prophecies. My literal view forces me into accepting that the language of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 6 is to some extent figurative. If the language of 2 Peter 3 is taken as literal, this leads to either dismissing or diminishing the literal meaning and detail of many of the OT prophecies.

Bronzesnake wrote:
Quote
"I must disagree with your assertion that these events are figurative my friend.. Read the bold text and compare it with the following verses."
I agree that 2 Peter 3:9-13 and Revelation 6:13-17 use the same language. To repeat what Dyskolos said, and I am not ignoring your answer, if all the stars fell to the earth, or even one star, or even a star much smaller than our sun, there would not be much left of the earth for man to hide from the wrath of the lamb. 2 Peter 3 speaks of the destruction of the Noahic heaven and earth, but the globe itself survived, and some of the plants, fish, birds, animals and humans survived the judgments and flood. In the Bible language of 2 Peter 3, the present "heaven" and "earth" is different to that of Noah before the flood.

Compare the language of the following, and note that Isaiah is speaking of the judgment that was to come on Idumea, possibly by direct Divine intervention, or more likely by the sword of the army of Assyria or Babylon.
Isaiah 34:4-6 (KJV): "4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea."
Revelation 6:13-14 (KJV): "13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

One of Joseph's dreams shows that sun, moon, stars can represent people. Stars could be the princes of Edom.

Also the language of Revelation 6 has a parallel with Isaiah 2, and yet the opening vision of Isaiah 2 depicts the outcome, that a remnant of the nations will survive those judgments, and worship will be restored centred in Judah and Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:4 (KJV): "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Isaiah 2:19 (KJV): "And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."
Revelation 6:15-17 (KJV): "15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


There will be some physical changes when Christ returns, eg the earthquake and splitting of the Mount of Olives as recorded in Zechariah 14, but the rest of the detail of Zechariah 14 prove that the earth will not be destroyed when Christ returns, but will be refreshed and restored.
Zechariah 14:11,16 (KJV): "11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Kind regards
Trevor
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2005, 10:39:54 AM »

 Hello my friend...

 
Quote
There will be some physical changes when Christ returns, eg the earthquake and splitting of the Mount of Olives as recorded in Zechariah 14, but the rest of the detail of Zechariah 14 prove that the earth will not be destroyed when Christ returns, but will be refreshed and restored.
Zechariah 14:11,16 (KJV): "11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."


     First of all, the scriptures always interpret themselves. So we take everything literal unless there is an interpretation from a figurative scripture, in which case scripture interprets itself. In doing this, God has assured us that we will never be confused. Do you know that there are some "Christians" who believe Jesus and satan are figurative, and just about everything else in the Bible? Such people contend that the Bible is a book of "spiritual" lessons from God, and not literal descriptions of actual historical events. God has given us a foolproof system so that we can avoid that kind of confusion - the scriptures always interpret themselves.

How can you separate the events from Zechariah 14 from the scriptures which you believe are figurative?

 You are correct, the earth will not be destroyed when Jesus returns - Jesus never says it will be destroyed. He says He will create a new Heaven and a new Earth. He says the old Heaven will be rolled up like a scroll, and the old Earth will be burned up. Some people don't believe this is possible because they limit God's power to keep His children safe during this transition. There is no interpretation found in corroboration with these verses, therefore we must understand them to be literal events, which God no doubt, is able to complete.

Great discussing this with you my brother.
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2005, 10:51:13 AM »

Quote
Do you know that there are some "Christians" who believe Jesus and satan are figurative, and just about everything else in the Bible?
You mean "Christians" like Jane Fonda?  Grin
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44265  
The sad part?  Jane Fonda actually has a following and that following will believe what she says.

God Bless us everyone!
JN
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