CHRIST OR the devil

[Evangelist]

Bronze....a little disagreement here.

Jesus told the story of a rich man (a jew) and lazarus (a beggar).

The rich man was on the wrong side of the fence in sheol (the lower hell).  The beggar was on the right side (paradise).

When Jesus descended into the depths, He went to Paradise, from whence He led "captivity" (those waiting on Him to complete His work) free (to Heaven).

The rich man stayed where he was.

When Paul is speaking of "all Israel will be saved", he is referring to those alive when Jesus begins His reign, and who acknowledge Him as Messiah, Savior, Redeemer.

In the meantime....to die without Jesus is to be lost for eternity.

What you have been saying smacks loudly of John Hagee and the Two Covenant Theology.

[Mrs.Chosen]

A Bronze aren't you the pot calling the kettle black!
You talked about me not answering your questions.
You are acting like I'm not on the board anymore.
You didn't give me time and assumed that cause I didn't type back right away that I was unable to understand scripture. When what I was doing is studying more instead of just coming back with my own opinions and interpertation.

so just answer me this please
A jew that practises judaism right now(you know that they do) dies today with believing the messiah has not come, why won't they go to hell. You say the bible says they will all be saved but the same bible says that without CHRIST hell is the issue

[Reba]

I am saying that the Jews will be saved by God - God is Jesus. God made them a very special promise - a promise which was made exclusively to the Jews - the Jews have a seperate special covenant from God/Jesus - God/Jesus promised the Jews that they would ALL be forgiven and saved - God/Jesus will forgive EVERY SINGLE JEW - The Jews will ALL accept Jesus, the Jews who died in the O.T. times and the Jews that died in Jesus times and the Jews who live or die in the Great Tribulation - ALL Jews! That's exactly what God told them - God has warned us (Gentiles) not to be "ignorant" or jealous of this special promise which He made with His CHOSEN people (read Romans 11). We have been "grafted" in to that covenant - We are "added" - We have not "supplanted" the Jews - That's the mistake that some of us have made - We can't understand that God has the power to accomplish ALL things - In His own way - At His own appointed time.

Fellow christians the way to asure the salvation of your grandchildren is to have them have a Jewish mother. Correct Bronze? And all this time i thought salvation was at the Cross of Christ.

P.S.  If your only halve Jewish are you only halve saved?

 Reeba...am I detecting a hint of sarcasm?  

 What part of ALL JEWS do you think God is lying or wrong about?

Bronzesnake

If you want to insure the salvation of your grandchildren see to it that they have a Jewish mother. Correct?  

[Reba]

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

 What is meant "and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;"?

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
KJV

The Scriptures do not say 'all jews' , in this context, it says 'all Israel'. And I believe all Israel will/is be saved.


 I started to post the verses in Eph 2 I couldn't find a good stopping point So i will just post  "Ephesians"

[Bronzesnake]

Bronze....a little disagreement here.

Jesus told the story of a rich man (a jew) and lazarus (a beggar).

The rich man was on the wrong side of the fence in sheol (the lower hell).  The beggar was on the right side (paradise).

When Jesus descended into the depths, He went to Paradise, from whence He led "captivity" (those waiting on Him to complete His work) free (to Heaven).

The rich man stayed where he was.

When Paul is speaking of "all Israel will be saved", he is referring to those alive when Jesus begins His reign, and who acknowledge Him as Messiah, Savior, Redeemer.

In the meantime....to die without Jesus is to be lost for eternity.

What you have been saying smacks loudly of John Hagee and the Two Covenant Theology.

 My friend...

To begin - Do you know the difference between Sheol and Gehenna? If you do - and let's assume for arguments sake that the "Rich Man" "parable" was literal (which it isn't) but if it were, then the rich man is not described as being in Gehenna is he?

This is an important detail, because I contend that God promised that the Jews will be forgiven and saved at the end of the time of the Gentiles - when Jesus Returns I believe they do go to their "graves"( sheol ) when they die BEFORE JESUS RETURNS

The author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.

HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.  

The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36).

These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).


The story of the "rich man" is a parable my friend.
You posted that parable but then you added 1Peter 3:18-20 onto it, which appears to make the parable literal my friend. That's not possible.

But, let's look at 1Peter 3:18-20 - who did Jesus preach to there? and for what purpose?

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, has been used a long time by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell" -  however, it really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife at all. Christ used this story (parable), which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness, which led them to reject him as the Messiah. They still suffer from that fate to this very day. Yet the time is soon coming when God will pour on the Jews the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Christ whom they pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn (Zec. 12:10).

Look folks, we have to stop being blind to God's promise with His Chosen people - it smacks of conceit and jealousy, whether intentional or not. In the very least, and under the best possible scenario, it shows a total lack of understanding and ignorance of God's ability to keep His promises.

 In order to come to such erroneous conclusions, we are forced to supplant God's own Truth with our own. The fact is that God did make an EVERLASTING covenant with the Jews - Hence the term HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. This is not ambiguous at all people - stop trying to interpret God's Word.

Christ uses the last two verses of the "rich man" parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead. The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.
But Abraham answers and plainly tells him that anyone who rejects God's Word about the Messiah will also refuse to acknowledge the evidence of a miraculous resurrection. This last verse is a sad prophecy about the Jews and about all the Israelites who have not, despite God's resurrection of His son from the power of the grave, recognized Christ as the Messiah.

Christ ends this parable abruptly, with no real resolution presented. The picture presented is a bleak one, yet there is hope for the Jews and for all Israel. In Romans 11, Paul laid out that hope in such a manner that scarcely few today have really believed it.

In Romans 11:1 Paul rhetorically asks if God has cast away His people, Israel. He answers his own question emphatically by saying "Certainly not!" He tells us that God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Paul writes that there is currently a remnant of Israel, analogous to the seven thousand reserved to God in Elijah's time (I Kings 19:18), that God has elected by grace. The rest God hardened, that the Gentiles might also be included in salvation through grace. He gives the resolution of the situation in verse 26.

ROMANS 11:25   For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

If I were to accept your version of the future of the Jews, I would have to deny the verses I just posted among several others which explain and confirm God's promise to the Jews.

They are His CHOSEN people folks - we'll all just have to get over it.

p.s. I love Hagee's ministery!  

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

I am saying that the Jews will be saved by God - God is Jesus. God made them a very special promise - a promise which was made exclusively to the Jews - the Jews have a seperate special covenant from God/Jesus - God/Jesus promised the Jews that they would ALL be forgiven and saved - God/Jesus will forgive EVERY SINGLE JEW - The Jews will ALL accept Jesus, the Jews who died in the O.T. times and the Jews that died in Jesus times and the Jews who live or die in the Great Tribulation - ALL Jews! That's exactly what God told them - God has warned us (Gentiles) not to be "ignorant" or jealous of this special promise which He made with His CHOSEN people (read Romans 11). We have been "grafted" in to that covenant - We are "added" - We have not "supplanted" the Jews - That's the mistake that some of us have made - We can't understand that God has the power to accomplish ALL things - In His own way - At His own appointed time.

Fellow christians the way to asure the salvation of your grandchildren is to have them have a Jewish mother. Correct Bronze? And all this time i thought salvation was at the Cross of Christ.

P.S.  If your only halve Jewish are you only halve saved?

 Reeba...am I detecting a hint of sarcasm?  

 What part of ALL JEWS do you think God is lying or wrong about?

Bronzesnake

If you want to insure the salvation of your grandchildren see to it that they have a Jewish mother. Correct?  

 Reeba?!

Or see to it that they find Jesus!  

 What more do I have to say?!! ALL JEWS. These are not my words Reeba my friend - they are God's words. Perhaps you should berate Him.  

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

 What is meant "and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;"?

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
KJV

The Scriptures do not say 'all jews' , in this context, it says 'all Israel'. And I believe all Israel will/is be saved.


 I started to post the verses in Eph 2 I couldn't find a good stopping point So i will just post  "Ephesians"

 So...God will save a country - dirt and stones huh? Gee I wonder what kind of sin the ground is up to these days Reeba?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  
I guess if you didn't want to believe the Jews would ALL be saved, then you could misinterpret these descriptive words "Israel" and "Jacob" to mean God will save the land.
However, the next verse puts everything into it's proper perspective...

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  
 Them and Their - Nope, it's not land God has made an everlasting promise to - it's Jews.

Why does this bother so many of us?  

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

A Bronze aren't you the pot calling the kettle black!
You talked about me not answering your questions.
You are acting like I'm not on the board anymore.
You didn't give me time and assumed that cause I didn't type back right away that I was unable to understand scripture. When what I was doing is studying more instead of just coming back with my own opinions and interpertation.

so just answer me this please
A jew that practises judaism right now(you know that they do) dies today with believing the messiah has not come, why won't they go to hell. You say the bible says they will all be saved but the same bible says that without CHRIST hell is the issue

 My dear sister. You have already accused me of disagreeing with everything you post. In fact, this topic is the single topic I have read from you that I thoroughly disagree with.

You have stated your beliefs on the subject and I have stated mine. What more can be gained accept the possibillity of being hurtful to each other? I don't want that my sister.

 I have answered that specific question several times in my posts. I guess you don't recognize the reply.

 So... One last time....

 

so just answer me this please
A jew that practises judaism right now(you know that they do) dies today with believing the messiah has not come, why won't they go to hell. You say the bible says they will all be saved but the same bible says that without CHRIST hell is the issue

 That Jew would go straight to his or her grave. (read my reply to Evangelist (it's the last long post I made before this one) I go into detail about where Jews and all saints TODAY will go after death.

 They go to their graves and they will remain there until Jesus returns - forgives them - and resurrects them into His everlasting Kingdom - Just as He said He would do.

 I hope that is plain and clear enough for you my sister.

p.s. I sent you a private message a couple of days ago in regards to the gospel rap post.

Bronzesnake

[Reba]

I wish i could put into words my feelings on what  this doctrine says about the Cross of Christ. I can not. Marry a Jewish woman and your children will be saved by her blood. Something is just not right about that in light of the Cross of Christ..

I said something around the forums, i think it was to you, we wont change each others minds. I have a hard time believing christians who devalue the the blood of Jesus to that of one of us humans.

Salvation is only via His blood. I will try and not respond to you ,Bronze, on this topic, seems this topic gets locked anyway.

I hope you read the other thread as it was intended  

[Bronzesnake]

I wish i could put into words my feelings on what  this doctrine says about the Cross of Christ. I can not. Marry a Jewish woman and your children will be saved by her blood. Something is just not right about that in light of the Cross of Christ..

I said something around the forums, i think it was to you, we wont change each others minds. I have a hard time believing christians who devalue the the blood of Jesus to that of one of us humans.

Salvation is only via His blood. I will try and not respond to you ,Bronze, on this topic, seems this topic gets locked anyway.

I hope you read the other thread as it was intended  

 Reeba.

 Please don't get bent out of shape. I love you my sister!

 It isn't through any woman or man's blood that the Jews will be saved. It is through the blood of Jesus - He is the same God who made the promise to the Jews in the first place. - don't seperate God from Jesus Reeba.

 The Jews WILL ACCEPT JESUS the Bible/God says so.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  

See? Jesus is the deliverer! So they aren't saved just because they happen to be Jews - they are saved because God made them a promise that they would be HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE that HE WOULD BE THEIR GOD ETERNALLY. He accomplishes this through the blood of Jesus.

I really don't know any other way to explain it Reeba. It's scriptural my sister.

If it was most anyone else Reeba, I would have just stopped trying to explain it. I respect you very much, and I would never intentially be rude or hurtful to you my sister

Bronzesnake

[cris]

I could be wrong, but I think the question Reba is asking is, if a gentile marries a Jew, (known as His people, Israel), and  bears children, then those children would be half gentile and half Jew.  God made a promise to the Jews that ALL Israel (Jews) would be saved.  Since these children are half gentile and half Jewish, is God's promise to save ALL Jews applicable to them, considering?

[Bronzesnake]

I could be wrong, but I think the question Reba is asking is, if a gentile marries a Jew, (known as His people, Israel), and  bears children, then those children would be half gentile and half Jew.  God made a promise to the Jews that ALL Israel (Jews) would be saved.  Since these children are half gentile and half Jewish, is God's promise to save ALL Jews applicable to them, considering?

Hello cris...

Ya, that's where I thought Reeba was going initially, but then she posted the following...

 

I wish i could put into words my feelings on what  this doctrine says about the Cross of Christ. I can not. Marry a Jewish woman and your children will be saved by her blood. Something is just not right about that in light of the Cross of Christ..

I said something around the forums, i think it was to you, we wont change each others minds. I have a hard time believing christians who devalue the the blood of Jesus to that of one of us humans.

Bronzesnake

[cris]

Bronzesnake,

I don't remember you saying anything to me about one not changing another's mind.  Could you refresh my memory?

I don't think Reba was meaning to devalue the blood of Christ to that as one of us.  I think she meant she was unable to put her feelings in writing so as to be clear on what she really meant.  Sometimes I have that difficulty and am misunderstood.  It can be frustrating at times.

Anyway, back to my last question about the children of a Jew and gentile.  Would God's promises to Israel (the Jews) apply here, in your opinion?

cris

[Reba]

Bronze

I hope you read the other thread as it was intended .

I left you a teasing joke on another thread and you didnt read it as a joke.  


Do you believe in free will?

[Reba]

I could be wrong, but I think the question Reba is asking is, if a gentile marries a Jew, (known as His people, Israel), and  bears children, then those children would be half gentile and half Jew.  God made a promise to the Jews that ALL Israel (Jews) would be saved.  Since these children are half gentile and half Jewish, is God's promise to save ALL Jews applicable to them, considering?

Cris ,
 i have a memory way back in my empty head that says  to be a Jew ones mother must be Jewish.

In my view and i am sure he doesn't see it that way ( Bronzes) teaching is a devaluing of the Cross I must becarefull or i will get 'in trouble' here at CU. This teaching in my view disreguards so much of the Word of God as pinned by Paul.  

I personaly believe in the unity of the Church. Christ has one body  these verses say it better than i...

Eph 2:19-3:1

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


KJV
 To me this unity includes OT saints and NT staints.