To begin - Do you know the difference between Sheol and Gehenna? If you do - and let's assume for arguments sake that the "Rich Man" "parable" was literal (which it isn't) but if it were, then the rich man is not described as being in Gehenna is he?
As a matter of fact, Bronze, I do. Sheol is the HEBREW word characterizing the abode of the dead. In Jewish thought, Sheol is divided into two parts...the upper Sheol, which was also called Paradise, and the lower Sheol, which was the place of the tormented. Jewish thought also considered the possiblity of an eventual escape from Paradise, but they didn't know how. On the other hand, the place of torment (lower Sheol) carried NO possibility of escape.
Gehenna is the ARAMAIC word used by Jesus to characterize the lower compartment of Sheol, and likend it to the valley of Hinnom (ge bene Hinnom). This valley is located just outside of the old Jerusalem, and was where the inhabitants of Jerusalem took their trash and burned it. Because it was constantly a place of fire, smoke and stench, He used it to illustrate the reality of a place of fire and torment. It also was where, according to Jewish writings, earlier civilizations that preceeded Israel conducted their ritual sacrifices to Moloch. Paul and others referred to this several times when making reference to idol worshipers making their children to "pass through the fire." See this reference from Easton's topical bible:
( originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech ( 2Ch 28:3; 33:6; Jer 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of
everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Mat 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luk 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin
Since Jesus used the word "hades" here, gehenna has nothing to do with this. Hades is considered the "lower" part of the abode of the dead, just as with Sheol. In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth. Hades is the abode of the wicked from which there was no escape, and as such is synonymous with the above description of gehenna.
Since the rich man was (a) in torments, (b) in flame, and (c) needed a cool touch of water for his lips, it would be reasonably safe to assume that he was in lower sheol, aka hades aka gehenna aka hell.
I think I know the difference between the two, don't you?
Next, let's do assume that the "parable" is nothing more than a parable, and not literal. A parable is for the purpose of communicating a spiritual reality. Spiritual reality from the parable then, is that there is a place where people go to that will not be escaped from. Period. Note that in this "parable", Jesus recounts;
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence Luk 16:26Doesn't Jesus say here that one CANNOT pass from one place to the other? Or, to put it another way, if one is sent to hades/hell/lower sheol, then one cannot get out of it. It appears that the parabolic rich man was a Jew, since Jesus was speaking to Jews about Jewish things. Or, if you prefer, he was a "type" of unrighteous Jew, or even the unbelieving among the Jewish nation.
Finally, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in every parable that Jesus spoke, He draw attention to (a)the fact that it was a parable, or (b) pointed out "xxxxxx is like unto", or similar phraseology. Also, in NONE of His parables did He ever mention a specific name, as He did in this one. Could it be that He knew a beggar named Lazarus? And that this person would have been known by name and status to some of His hearers?
When the literal makes sense, make no other sense of it unless it becomes nonsense.
This is an important detail, because I contend that God promised that the Jews will be forgiven and saved at the end of the time of the Gentiles - when Jesus Returns I believe they do go to their "graves"( sheol ) when they die BEFORE JESUS RETURNS
All of the details are important....especially the distinctions found in understanding the compartmentalization of "Sheol", which is much much more than just a grave. It certainly sounds like you fully believe that you will be standing for eternity in heaven in company with Saul, the witch of Endor, Barabbas, Caiphas, Herod and a few others of the same ilk.
The story of the "rich man" is a parable my friend.
You posted that parable but then you added 1Peter 3:18-20 onto it, which appears to make the parable literal my friend. That's not possible.
But, let's look at 1Peter 3:18-20 - who did Jesus preach to there? and for what purpose?
No, Bronze...I didn't add 1 Pet....you did. I was making reference to
Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them]. *and*
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
But adding also the 1 Pet., we still have the fact that the reference is to leading to heaven those who had been waiting on Him, who had been in Paradise, and who were considered by God to be righteous under the Abrahamic and Sinaitic covenants, but NOT able to receive the promise UNTIL Jesus paid the price.
Why didn't Jesus make the same promise to the other thief, if that is what was going to happen? Could it be because the other thief (a Jew) was NOT going to be in Paradise?
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, has been used a long time by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell"
Along with a number of other scriptures. I believe that Jesus spent almost as much time talking about the reality of hell as He did the reality of heaven.
- however, it really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife at all.
Really?!?
"and in hell he lift up his eyes,
being in torments... (Luke 16:23)
"....Father Abraham, have mercy on me... (Luke 16:24a)
"...for I am
tormented in this flame (Luke 16:24b)
"...so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us... (Luke 16:26)
"...it is appointed ONCE to man to die, THEN JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27)
I suppose torments after death don't have anything to do with punishment or afterlife.
If I were to accept your version of the future of the Jews, I would have to deny the verses I just posted among several others which explain and confirm God's promise to the Jews.
No you don't, Bronze...you just have to rightly divide the entirety of God's Word, and not deny other parts.
I think you aren't reading completely, and are making a bad assumption concerning what I (we) have said about the Jews, so let me make it absolutely clear.
1. The Jews are God's chosen people.
2. He will fulfill His promises to them.
3. At the second coming of Christ, the Jews will recognize and accept Him.
4. Those who believe in Christ, whether predating or post dating His crucifixion, will be saved.
5. Those who are not declared righteous, pre or post, WILL NOT BE SAVED.
6. No one can escape the words of Jesus Himself, very God, when He said NO ONE COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME, and since the crucifixion and resurrection, there is no more "waiting room" to give ANY men a second chance.
The Jews do NOT have a separate path to God. Those who died prior to Christ were given the opportunity (from Paradise) to accept His sacrifice on their behalf. If they weren't in Paradise waiting, then they didn't get to go. Those who die on this side of the cross don't make it without Him.
p.s. I love Hagee's ministery!
I'm sorry.
Then I guess that means we should never try to tell any Jew about Jesus, right? What's the use?
“I do not set aside the grace of God: for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain” (Galatians 2:21).
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