CHRIST OR the devil

[Mrs.Chosen]

Dito post but I had to bring it over here too.



Blind for a time and a purpose. The jews were blind for a reason. We are the reason. But follow me to Acts where I can clearly show you the blinders must come off.


 11Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon's, greatly amazed. 12So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
    17"Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[a] 21whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22For Moses truly said to the fathers, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold[c] these days. 25You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'[d] 26To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

Acts 3:11-26 (New King James Version)
Vearse 17 and 18 are very important. It says you were blind and I understand, but now you must see.

[Evangelist]

Bronze:
In re your interpretation and understanding of "all" to mean literally every Jew who has ever lived since Abraham, I would like for you to consider the following.

all - pas
1) individually
   a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
   a) some of all types
++++
 ... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
 C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption


From Jamieson, Fausett & Brown commentary on Romans 11
specific commentary by David Brown

26, 27. And so all Israel shall be saved--To understand this great statement, as some still do, merely of such a gradual inbringing of individual Jews, that there shall at length remain none in unbelief, is to do manifest violence both to it and to the whole context. It can only mean the ultimate ingathering of Israel as a nation, in contrast with the present "remnant." (So THOLUCK, MEYER, DE WETTE, PHILIPPI, ALFORD, HODGE). Three confirmations of this now follow: two from the prophets, and a third from the Abrahamic covenant itself.

First, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and
       shall--or, according to what seems the true reading, without the "and"--"He shall"
       turn away ungodliness from Jacob--The apostle, having drawn his illustrations of man's sinfulness chiefly from Psa 14:1-7  , now seems to combine the language of the same two places regarding Israel's salvation from it [BENGEL]. In the one place the Psalmist longs to see the "salvation of Israel coming out of Zion" ( Psa 14:7 ); in the other, the prophet announces that "the Redeemer (or, 'Deliverer') shall come to (or 'for') Zion" ( Isa 59:20 ). But as all the glorious manifestations of Israel's God were regarded as issuing out of Zion, as the seat of His manifested glory ( Psa 20:2 110:2 Isa 31:9 ), the turn which the apostle gives to the words merely adds to them that familiar idea. And whereas the prophet announces that He "shall come to (or, 'for') them that turn from transgression in Jacob," while the apostle makes Him say that He shall come "to turn away ungodliness from Jacob," this is taken from the Septuagint version, and seems to indicate a different reading of the original text. The sense, however, is substantially the same in both. Second,
 

       27. For--rather, "and" (again); introducing a new quotation.
       this is my covenant with them--literally, "this is the covenant from me unto them."
       when I shall take away their sins--This, we believe, is rather a brief summary of Jer 31:31-34  than the express words of any prediction, Those who believe that there are no predictions regarding the literal Israel in the Old Testament, that stretch beyond the end of the Jewish economy, are obliged to view these quotations by the apostle as mere adaptations of Old Testament language to express his own predictions [ALEXANDER on Isaiah, &c.]. But how forced this is, we shall presently see.
 

       28, 29. As concerning the Gospel they are enemies for your sakes--that is, they are regarded and treated as enemies (in a state of exclusion through unbelief, from the family of God) for the benefit of you Gentiles; in the sense of Rom 11:11, 15 .
       but as touching, the election--of Abraham and his seed.
       they are beloved--even in their state of exclusion for the fathers' sakes.
 

       29. For the gifts and calling--"and the calling"
       of God are without repentance--"not to be," or "cannot be repented of." By the "calling of God," in this case, is meant that sovereign act by which God, in the exercise of His free choice, "called" Abraham to be the father of a peculiar people; while "the gifts of God" here denote the articles of the covenant which God made with Abraham, and which constituted the real distinction between his and all other families of the earth. Both these, says the apostle, are irrevocable; and as the point for which he refers to this at all is the final destiny of the Israelitish nation, it is clear that the perpetuity through all time of the Abrahamic covenant is the thing here affirmed. And lest any should say that though Israel, as a nation, has no destiny at all under the Gospel, but as a people disappeared from the stage when the middle wall of partition was broken down, yet the Abrahamic covenant still endures in the spiritual seed of Abraham, made up of Jews and Gentiles in one undistinguished mass of redeemed men under the Gospel--the apostle, as if to preclude that supposition, expressly states that the very Israel who, as concerning the Gospel, are regarded as "enemies for the Gentiles' sakes," are "beloved for the fathers' sakes"; and it is in proof of this that he adds, "For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance." But in what sense are the now unbelieving and excluded children of Israel "beloved for the fathers' sakes?" Not merely from ancestral recollections, as one looks with fond interest on the child of a dear friend for that friend's sake [DR. ARNOLD]--a beautiful thought, and not foreign to Scripture, in this very matter (see 2Ch 20:7 Isa 41:8 ) --but it is from ancestral connections and obligations, or their lineal descent from and oneness in covenant with the fathers with whom God originally established it. In other words, the natural Israel--not "the remnant of them according to the election of grace," but THE NATION, sprung from Abraham according to the flesh--are still an elect people, and as such, "beloved." The very same love which chose the fathers, and rested on the fathers as a parent stem of the nation, still rests on their descendants at large, and will yet recover them from unbelief, and reinstate them in the family of God.

It is absolutely mandatory (as you have also stated) that ALL of Gods Word must be considered, and balanced, and reconciled.....such is "rightly dividing".  You have then posted a number of scriptures that justify your understanding of "all".  

Unfortunately, there are certain scriptures that have also been posted that were contradictory to yours, if understood ONLY in the light of "all" being "all inclusive individually."

I believe that you would be in full agreement that such a condition can not exist...the Word of God does not contradict itself.

The resolution and reconciliation of those seemingly contradictory passages can ONLY be done in the light of understanding "all" as to be NOT inclusive individually of every Jew who ever lived....it simply means that all of the Jews who are alive at the time Jesus returns and ACCEPT Him will be saved, and that all of the NATION of Israel (as a national entity, government, place) will also be saved.

One cannot escape the absolute truth and import of Jesus' own words concerning salvation:

Speaking to a Jew, Nicodemus:
"...you MUST be born again"

Speaking to a Jewish audience:
"...NO ONE comes to the Father but by me"

Speaking to a group of Jews:
"...WHOSOEVER believeth in me shall have eternal life...and whosoever believeth NOT shall have eternal damnation"

Finally, it would be much appreciated by me (and probably a few others), if you would refrain from such comments as:

...Some of us believe God has broken that promise.

...however, I doubt that the few folks here who don't believe God will keep His promise to the Jews will be able to answer this question.

That smacks of a spiritual arrogance that is quite unseemly.  

[Evangelist]

One final question:

Where is Judas "the son of perdition" during eternity?

[Reba]

Well said Evangelist.

My thoughts…

Doctrines of exclusion are not scriptural in my view. Many scriptures have been posted in this thread showing the misguided ness of such teaching. Also a doctrine that subtlety changes the Word to fit its needs  (changing the word Israel to Jew) is a doctrine to be wary of.


Getting flippant answers to questions that arise when trying to understand someone’s view. ( I did answer you just didn’t like the answer or if you don’t know I wont tell ya sorta answers ). The question in mind just now is  ‘what makes a person a Jew?’ As in how much Jewish blood does one need to be called Jewish.  No real answer.

In my almost 60 years and being a preachers kid. I have seen many doctrines and groups on the edge. I have seen many folks slip over. One of my brothers has never been able to get the ‘cult’ out of him (over done discipleship of the 70’s) although he is out of the cult. This shows in him in always having to be right, he never listens has a closed mind and heart. Surrounds himself with like thinkers.

The caring and love Mr. Bepster shows here in the forums over powers his acceptance of this view of scripture being discussed. Not all have the ability to he has in stating his beliefs and showing how much he cares.

[Brian.L.]

 Just the other day I was disscussing the Judas question with my brother in law and to me its a mystery.

  The reason I say that is, did not someone have to deliver Jesus to the romans to fullfill God,s plan?

  Please do not take this the wrong way as I am just curious.

  In a way did not we all deliver Christ to be crucified?

  I do not think really anyone can say whats going to happen but God Himself.

   That certainly is quite a question one in which I do not know.

  We do not even know if Judas asked to be forgiven do we?

   I realize he killed himself, but on other threads I read that that all sins are forgiven ,past present , and future.

  At any rate I do not know this question.

   Your Brother in Christ: Brian

[Soldier4Christ]

This is a question that has perplexed Christians throughout the years. The Bible does tell us that Judas repented of this sin.

Mat 27:3  Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4  Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.


Is Judas forgiven and would go to heaven? Did not Jesus say, "Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

 

[Reba]

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

[Soldier4Christ]

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

This is true but lost in what manner. As in going to hell or in the physical sense? Jesus said "while I was with them in the world". And the word "perdition" means ruin or loss of a physical, spiritual or eternal nature. So which is it physical, spiritual or eternal?

This is the reason that the debate of whether Judas is going to heaven or hell has been on going. The scriptures are really not clear here and can be understood as meaning either or perhaps both.

[Evangelist]

This is a question that has perplexed Christians throughout the years. The Bible does tell us that Judas repented of this sin.

Mat 27:3  Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4  Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.


Is Judas forgiven and would go to heaven? Did not Jesus say, "Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

PR....while it is true that Judas "repented", he apparently didn't do so to the right authority.  Notice also that he "saw that he was condemned."  His vocalization of his sin was to the chief priests and elders. Additionally, it appears that his repentence dealt more with the money than with anything else, since all he did was return the money and whine.  Was he trying to do the same thing that Simon Magus did when he attempted to buy the Holy Spirit from Peter?

If we accept that Jesus' ..."Father, forgive them" was a blanket forgiveness to ALL of mankind, that would then fall into the category of universal salvation, regardless.  IMO, the forgiveness at this point is expressed towards those specific individuals who were crucifying Him, especially since it is followed by a reference to what these "knowing not what they do" individuals promptly did....cast lots on His garment.

[Bronzesnake]

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 Obviously, some of these people who were dead and found here at the Great White Throne judgement are going to be saved - otherwise why would God open the book of life?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  

 It seems as though there is escape from hell afterall.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Tjis verse infers that some are found written in the book of life...who could these people be? JEWS!

 So here it is folks - at the Great White Throne judgement we have some "mysterious" people who are taken up from "hell" (which is supposed to be inescapable) and are going to be saved!

 The Great White Throne judgement is supposed to be a judgement for all those who rejected Jesus - yet, here we see that somehow, some of these folks were found in the book of life! We all know that any Gemtile who rejected Jesus and is at the Great White Throne judgememt is on thier way to the Lake of Fire - except the Jews because God said ALL JEWS would be saved - and gere they are folks!

Goodnight Irene!

Bronzesnake

[Reba]

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

[Bronzesnake]

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

 This doesn't challenge my last post in the least Reba - unless you believe all of us go through the Great White Throne judgement.

Bronzesnake

[Reba]

Posting a scripture is not a challenge, unless your looking for one.

I guess this would be a topic for another thread  but i will ask any way.  
How many resurrections do you all read in the scriptures, if ya answer please be clear about body and/or spirit.

[Bronzesnake]

Posting a scripture is not a challenge, unless your looking for one.

I guess this would be a topic for another thread  but i will ask any way.  
How many resurrections do you all read in the scriptures, if ya answer please be clear about body and/or spirit.

Reba !??

 This is the second time you have made me out to be
A) Biblically ignorant
B) Aggressive and hostile.(looking for a challenge)

 You can't pretend that we haven't been debating God's covenants - and that I started this thread as a direct result of your (and others) opposing view. I can assure you I am not hotly striking away at my keyboard with bloody fingertips and foam bubbling around my mouth. I am a civil person who believes in the benefits of doctrinal discussion. We aren't born with knowledge - we acquire it over time, and sometimes through debate.

It's not sarcastically motivated - I am not waiting to jump on your every post - I disagree with you - yes - but by default you disagree with me also. So every time you post a reply to a specific topic, which we disagree on - isn't it natural for me to assume you posted it to further your argument? I am not angry - I am not upset in the least - and I am certainly not throwing out any "challenges" my sister.

Bronzesnake

[Reba]

We all read in a post what we see. What we see is not always what is posted.


Where did i make you out to be bibically ignorant?

Bronze challenge is your word.