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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2005, 01:37:09 PM »

Actually we are the Bride of Christ. Notice in Scripture Christ is seen as the Bridegroom. We are His Bride in the fact that we have NOT been joined with Him in marriage yet because we are still bodily seperated from Him...Let me post you a few verses that show that we ARE the Bride of Christ

John 3:29

"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears Him, rejoices greatly becasue of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. He must incress, but I must decrease."

That verse clearly speaks of Christ as the Bridegroom. Now check out this verse: Romans 7:4

"Therefore my brethren, you also have become dead to the law thorugh the body of Christ, that you may be MARRIED to another--to Him, who was raised from the dead that we should bear fruit to God"

That verse shows that WE are to be MARRIED to CHRIST. Who else is it that is raised from the dead..certainly not Lazarus. Also check out 2 Corinthians 11:2

For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to CHRIST.

Note that we are going to be presented to Christ as chaste virgins...signifying Holiness and perfection which goes right along with Phillipians 1:6 which says "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" Also remember Ephesians 4:25-27

"Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE Her with the washing of water by the Word, that He might present her to HIMSELF a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkles or any such thing, but that she should be HOLY and without BLEMISH."

See it's clear to me that the Church IS the Bride of Christ and that WE will be Married to Him at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The Church is Christ's heavenly bride...whereas Israel was once Jehovah's earthly bride. I've given you Truth...accept it or not. God Bless

Joshua
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2005, 02:24:25 PM »

Rev 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11  Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12  And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13  On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14  And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15  And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16  And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17  And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18  And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19  And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20  The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21  And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25  And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26  And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.




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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2005, 02:52:08 PM »

J-2004 quote:
Quote
Actually we are the Bride of Christ. Notice in Scripture Christ is seen as the Bridegroom. We are His Bride in the fact that we have NOT been joined with Him in marriage yet because we are still bodily seperated from Him...Let me post you a few verses that show that we ARE the Bride of Christ

John 3:29

"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears Him, rejoices greatly becasue of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. He must incress, but I must decrease."

That verse clearly speaks of Christ as the Bridegroom.

Big
Evidently you did not go to the sight that I posted in my last post. Therefore, I will answer from it, and occasionally add my own remarks.

The Body of Christ was not in existance during the time period of John 3:29. It was still future revelation.

Mr Brock at http://www.starlightresearch.com/ActsProblems.html
1. John 3:29: "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice; this my joy therefore is fulfilled."

This verse was spoken by John the Baptist and written down by the Apostle John. There are three individuals mentioned - bride, bridegroom, and friend of the bridegroom. John the Baptist is the friend of the bridegroom; Jesus is the bridegroom (which is also the teaching of Matthew 25:1-13); and the bride constitutes those who believe in Him as the Messiah of Israel (John 3:28).

There is nothing here concerning the Body of Christ.

J-2004
Quote
Now check out this verse: Romans 7:

"Therefore my brethren, you also have become dead to the law thorugh the body of Christ, that you may be MARRIED to another--to Him, who was raised from the dead that we should bear fruit to God"

That verse shows that WE are to be MARRIED to CHRIST. Who else is it that is raised from the dead..certainly not Lazarus.


Mr Brock
5. Rom. 7:4, "Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

This verse seems to teach that believers should be 'married to another even to Him who is raised from the dead.' The NKJV still retains the word 'married.'

The reason why 'married' is carried over into verse 4 is because of what is taught in verses 2 and 3, that the married woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. The language of verses 2 and 3 is correct, even though translators can do a better job of translating verses 2 and 3, so that the truth can be more easily seen.

A Greek word for 'married' [HUPANDROS; Thayer's Greek-English Lex., p. 638] is used in verse 2 and translated 'which has a husband.' It can be translated 'For the married woman...' In verses 3 and 4 the English word 'married' is used three times, and it is the translation of the Greek verb GINOMAI, which means 'to become, to arise, appear, to be made ' done, finished.' It doesn't mean 'to marry' or even 'to join.' The meaning of 'become,' which should be used in verse 4, emphasizes the fact of 'becoming' one with our Saviour, the RISEN Christ Jesus. This is the only way that we can produce fruit (good works) for our Father God. There is no 'marriage' in this verse.

Since we have already been made a part of the Body of Christ at the time of salvation by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), there is absolutely no need to be joined or married to Him again.

j-200r
Quote
Also check out 2 Corinthians 11:2

For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to CHRIST.

BigD
Paul cannot betroth anyone to Christ. That is the action of the Holy Ghost. Phillipians 1:6 has nothing to do with "the Bride of Christ." How are you reading that into it?

Mr. Brock
3. 2 Cor. 11:2, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy, for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." Note that we are going to be presented to Christ as chaste virgins...signifying Holiness and perfection which goes right along with Phillipians 1:6 which says "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

All the translations favor the idea of the Body of Christ being the Bride of Christ. But the Greek does not support this. There is an alternative translation that teaches otherwise, and is in harmony with Pauline theology.

The Greek word for 'husband' also means 'man;' 'espoused' also means 'joined,' and the word 'virgin' is masculine, not feminine. A better translation reads like this: "For I am burning with zeal (over) you with a zeal of God, for I myself have joined you to one Man, to present a pure virgin to Christ" (from The Unveiling of Christianity by the author).

When unsaved people were saved under Paul's ministry, they became joined to Christ as being a part of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is called a gone new man' in Eph. 2:15. The masculine 'virgin' fits in well here. There is no teaching of the Body being a 'bride' in this verse, unless you can find it in a masculine bride instead of a feminine bride. In addition, Jesus is not presented as a 'husband' here, but as a MAN.


J-2004
Quote
Also remember Ephesians 4:25-27

"Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE Her with the washing of water by the Word, that He might present her to HIMSELF a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkles or any such thing, but that she should be HOLY and without BLEMISH."

See it's clear to me that the Church IS the Bride of Christ and that WE will be Married to Him at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The Church is Christ's heavenly bride...whereas Israel was once Jehovah's earthly bride. I've given you Truth...accept it or not.

BigD
As I read Ephesians 21-27, It appears that the relationship between the husband and wife should be as that of Christ's relationship to the Church, the Body of Christ. Nothing is said of the Chruch being the Bride. For one to see that, one would have to read that into it.

Verse 30 says: "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Does that sound like are the "bride" or part of the "bridegroom?"

J-2004, Go to the site I posted and read the entire article.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2005, 02:54:52 PM by BigD » Logged
BigD
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2005, 03:02:17 PM »


Taken from:
Mr Brock at http://www.starlightresearch.com/ActsProblems.html

2. Rev. 19:7-9: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife has made herself ready. [8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [9] And He said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God."

This passage will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Christ. One of the events the Lord is involved in then will be the marriage of the Lamb. It is not a 'bride' but 'His wife has made herself ready.' The use of the word 'wife' looks back to the Old Testament, particularly to Ezekiel 16:8, where Israel became Jehovah's wife (first marriage); to Jer. 3:8 where we read of a bill of divorce from the first marriage; and to Hosea 2:19 which speaks of the remarriage of Israel to the Lord which Revelation 19:7-9 describes (please read Hosea 2:7,16 which relate to this subject). Israel will become a 'bride' and a 'wife' at the Second Coming of its Bridegroom.

There seems to be another 'bride' involved with Israel, and that is the New Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 21:9-10.

So then, during the Millennium the saved Nation of Israel will be the wife of the Lamb, and during the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times, the New Jerusalem will also be called 'the bride,' the Lamb's wife. The terminology used indicates a very close connection between Israel and the New Jerusalem in an earthly setting.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2005, 05:39:41 PM »

Here we go once again...arguing semantics...letting someone else do your talking for you. I have copied and printed all of your statements concerning the Bride of Christ and I will have them looked over by another person other than me after I get done with them. the other person holds a ph.d in Theology and is fluent in Greek and Hebrew. I will have him look at it and bring mine and his findings as well. later.

Joshua
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BigD
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2005, 06:44:55 PM »

J-2004:
Cris want an opinion as to whether the Chruch, the Body of Christ, was "The Bride of Christ." I do not believe that the Scriptures support the idea that it is, so I just gave her a good source that supports my views. I really don't care if you like that or not. It was not addressed to you.

If your "authority" can come up with Scriptural support to show that my view is wrong, then I will change my views.

BTW, I did hold your views many years ago, But when I learned that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, was not Israel or spiritual Israel, I did change a lot of my views.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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bluelake
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2005, 10:47:14 PM »

Dream Weaver,
You have convenietly quoted scripture to support your doctrine. The problem is, we don't know what your doctrine is.
We are Christians when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior.
What do you find so offensive concerning the Creeds? The words are taken from scripture. Do you follow the Ten Commandments?
Please read mt.7:1-5. Eph.2:8-9, Jn.3:16, Mt.28:18-20

God bless you,
bluelake
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bluelake
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2005, 11:03:49 PM »

cris asks;
[quoteI have a question that doesn't fully pertain to the subject, but would appreciate it if someone could give me their opinion.

Jesus Christ is the head, and we, saved ones, are His body.  The Church, or the body of Christ is "the bride".  Christ is "the bridegroom."  Since Christ is the head and we're His body, aren't we one with Him already?  Shouldn't we be the bridegroom also?  If this be the case, then who is the bride?  Previous to this thought (question) I thought the marriage supper of the Lamb was when Christ (bridegroom) came back for His church (bride), but now I'm wondering about this.  Head separated from body, and then uniting that head and body, being called a marriage?  Humm!

Any thoughts?  Do you understand what I mean?  Sometimes I have a difficult clarifying my thoughts in writing.
Quote

BigD
Cris, The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, IS NOT "the Bride of Christ." We are more part of the Bridgroom then the Bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones"[/b] (Ephesians 5:30).

To read about the answer to this "problem" go to
http://www.starlightresearch.com/Problem7.html.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Big D,
I read the site that you offered. I didn't find a statement of faith. Maybe you would  provide it. Wink

Blessings,
bluelake
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cris
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2005, 11:32:43 PM »

cris asks;
[quoteI have a question that doesn't fully pertain to the subject, but would appreciate it if someone could give me their opinion.

Jesus Christ is the head, and we, saved ones, are His body.  The Church, or the body of Christ is "the bride".  Christ is "the bridegroom."  Since Christ is the head and we're His body, aren't we one with Him already?  Shouldn't we be the bridegroom also?  If this be the case, then who is the bride?  Previous to this thought (question) I thought the marriage supper of the Lamb was when Christ (bridegroom) came back for His church (bride), but now I'm wondering about this.  Head separated from body, and then uniting that head and body, being called a marriage?  Humm!

Any thoughts?  Do you understand what I mean?  Sometimes I have a difficult clarifying my thoughts in writing.
Quote

BigD
Cris, The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, IS NOT "the Bride of Christ." We are more part of the Bridgroom then the Bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones"[/b] (Ephesians 5:30).

To read about the answer to this "problem" go to
http://www.starlightresearch.com/Problem7.html.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Big D,
I read the site that you offered. I didn't find a statement of faith. Maybe you would  provide it. Wink

Blessings,
bluelake



Bluelake,

I went to that website, also.  The first page is a page with a green background.  Scroll down to the very bottom, and you will see a list on the left side, one of them being called HOME.  Click on HOME, and it will take you to their statement of faith page which is black with white lettering.  

I know you didn't ask me, but since I knew where it was, thought I'd answer your question.

Grace and peace,
cris

 
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cris
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2005, 11:56:49 PM »

Dream Weaver,
You have convenietly quoted scripture to support your doctrine. The problem is, we don't know what your doctrine is.
We are Christians when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior.
What do you find so offensive concerning the Creeds? The words are taken from scripture. Do you follow the Ten Commandments?
Please read mt.7:1-5. Eph.2:8-9, Jn.3:16, Mt.28:18-20

God bless you,
bluelake


Bluelake,

DreamWeaver has been missing from CU for a couple of weeks now.  We are all concerned about him and are praying for him.

Grace and peace,
cris

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BigD
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2005, 02:42:21 AM »

Cris:
THANK YOU for your help to bluelake.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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BigD
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2005, 03:17:23 AM »

J-2004ddddddd:
Have your you "authority" check out http://www.starlightresearch.com/Bride.html also.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord
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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2005, 04:07:38 PM »

Of course i'll have my friend check out the site himself. And he's not my "Authority" He's someone with a bit more knowledge and clarity on the subject. That's all. God Bless

Joshua
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BigD
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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2005, 07:53:25 AM »

J-2004
If you are in agreement with what your friend writes, then I will assume that you will be prepared to defend what he says. So be prepared.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

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Mathurin
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2005, 04:58:55 PM »

I will have to  disagree with the premise of the title of this thread due to my training in Junior High School many years   ago.   The  teachers taught us that if any question had an all inclusive or all exclusive qualifier  then the answer was false.  It works 98% of the time.  
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