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Theology => Apologetics => Topic started by: Shammu on January 09, 2005, 07:21:08 PM



Title: Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Shammu on January 09, 2005, 07:21:08 PM
In order to be in the one church the Lord established, those added to it by the Lord must be saved according to His requirements. In Acts 2:47 we read, "And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved." The Lord only adds the saved to His church. There are no unsaved people in His church. The Lord makes no mistakes. We are not saved just because we think or say we are. We are saved only when we have done what God has said we must do. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven." We must do Godís will, not manís will, to go to heaven.

According to the Bible, who are the saved? Jesus is quite clear as to who the saved are. Jesus says in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." A person has to have help to misunderstand what the Lord says here. Here we see the Bible says we must believe and be baptized in order to be saved. This is what Jesus says. But men have tried to change what the Lord has said. Men today say that all you have to do is "to accept Christ as your personal Saviour" and you will be saved. This may sound good and impressive, but there is more to it. Where in the Bible are you told that all you have to do to be saved is "to accept Christ as your personal Saviour"? It is not there. Men say that one does not have to be baptized to be saved, because they say you are saved before you are baptized. Who are you going to follow men or Christ? Do not allow the different doctrines of men to blind or confuse you concerning your salvation. You have so much to gain and too much to loose.

And also Peter tells us in 1 Peter 3:21, "The like figure baptism does now save us." Only when we have obeyed the Lordís command to be baptized will we be saved. These scriptures will be the only standard of judgment on Judgment Day, and not what we think or what men say. Jesus says in John 12:48, "The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day." Are you putting your trust and confidence in what men say or what God has said in the Bible? You will have to make the choice whether you are going to follow Godís word or manís word.

Also in order to be the church which Jesus built, the church must worship God and Christ according to the way They have specified. We are told in Ephesians 5:17, "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is." It is very unwise not to find out and understand what the will of the Lord is. The vast majority of people do not know what the will of the Lord is. All you have to do is look around and see all of the differing doctrines that are being taught in all the differing churches. Are they understanding and following the will of God? Absolutely not. If they were there would only be the one church which Christ established. This is a pitiful condition of which people should be ashamed, but they are not.

If you are not worshipping Christ the way, they have specified in the Bible then your worship is vain. Our Lord says in Mark 7:7, "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." Have you been following the commandments of men and only some of what God says in the Bible? If you have this is vain. Jesus says in Matthew 28:20, "Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you." We must observe only what the Lord has commanded us. Is your worship vain? If it is then it will do you no good and you will be lost eternally.

Is each congregation of the Lordís church is autonomous? The church that Jesus built does not have a central earthly headquarters. There is no Biblical authority for an earthly headquarters. Christ is the only head over His church. As we read in Ephesians 1:22, "And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church." The church is not to be overseen by a pope, patriarch, president, cardinals, association, convention, synod or any other organization that man has come up with.

Each autonomous congregation of the Lordís church is to be overseen by a group of elders. In Acts 14:23  "So when they had appointed elders in every church." You see, there is to be a plurality of elders in every church or congregation. This is the way the Lord set up His church.

But what does the Lord intend for the elders to do in His church? In Acts 20:28 the apostle Paul was talking to the elders from the church at Ephesus and told them, "Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers." The church the Lord built is to be overseen by a group of elders. The qualifications of elders who are to oversee each congregation of the Lord's church are given in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 , Titus 1:3-9.  Is the church you belong to overseen by a plurality of elders? If not, why not? Or is your church overseen by the preacher? If it is to be the Lordís church and has men who qualify, each congregation is to be overseen by a plurality of elders.

If we accept the Bible as our only authority, we will want to worship God only as He has specified. We must reject human traditions and doctrines such as creed books, catechisms, manuals, articles of faith, confessions of faith, the book of Mormon, the Koran, constitutions, disciplines and other guidelines which men have written, all of which produce new and differing religious doctrines.

We are warned in Colossians 2:8, "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." It would be a tragedy to find out on Judgment Day we have been cheated of our eternal reward in heaven; but it will be too late then. These differing doctrines have caused the many departures from the New Testament teaching concerning Christ and His church.

Resting in the cradle of the Lord.
Bob

edited to correct a mistake. :'(


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Soldier4Christ on January 09, 2005, 07:35:28 PM
Amen DW, a really big Amen!

There are indeed many doctrines in the world today. The one that we should all be looking to is the Doctrine of Jesus Christ.



Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Shammu on January 09, 2005, 07:50:48 PM
Amen DW, a really big Amen!
Coming from you Pastor Roger, thank you.  :-[

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The one that we should all be looking to is the Doctrine of Jesus Christ.
AMEN, Pastor Roger!! :)


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on January 10, 2005, 07:10:04 AM
BigD responds:
DreamWeaver I totally agree with you that "Only The Saved Are In The Lord's Church."

After reading what you posted, I am somewhat confused as to how one enters the Lord's Chruch today.

It would be greatly appreciated if you can clarify some things for me.

When I study the Bible, I find two major doctrines. The doctrine of LAW and the doctrine of GRACE.

In Matthew 23:1 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe ando, but do not ye after their works for thaty say and do not."

Moses was the Law giver and the the scribes and Pharisees were the administrators/inforcers of the Law.

Is the above for us today? If not, Why not?

Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Why was Jesus only sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Could it be because of what Paul says in Romans 15:8? "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers."

The Jewish fathers were promised an everlasting kingdom upon the earth. Will the members of the Chruch (the Body of Christ) inherit an earthly kingdom that was promised to Israel? Or, will we inherit the heavenly hope that Paul says that we have? (See 2Cor5:1; Philippians 3:20.)

For one to enter the Jewish Chruch; Peter says in Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized."

The Philippian jailer asked Paul in Acts 16:30 "...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Paul replied "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..."

What happened to the act of "repent and be baptized?"

Under "the gospel of the grace of God" I cannot find any mention of a work, such as baptism, to demonstrate one's faith. Ephesians 2:8,9 says: "For by grace are ye sasved thriough faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast.

My study of the Bible tells me that salvation/justification was ALWAYS based on FAITH in what God required at that point of time in human history.

The instructions in righteousness for the children of Israel came from God and given to Moses through the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws. The children of Israel had to do them by FAITH. For a Gentile to serve the true and living God, at that time, had to become Jews (proselytes) and place themselves under the Law in order to receive Israel's blessings - to include the kingdom on earth promises.

The above is my understanding of how one became a member of the Jewish Chruch when Christ taught upon the earth.

It is my understanding that the instructions in righteousness for members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, was given to the Apostile through the "revelation of the MYSTERY,and the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God."

Today, because they rejected their King and His Kingdom, Israel is set aside. The "middle wall of partition" that seperated the Jew and Gentile is now broken down. The Jew was placed on the same footing as the set aside Gentiles of Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel. God MADE the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15, known as "the Body of Christ." Salvation is being offered to ALL mankind today, not on the basis of keeping the Law, by FAITH but on the basis of the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ by FAITH ALONE.

It appears to me that you are mixing the doctrine of Law and Garce. To me they are opposing doctrines. Mixing the two doctrines (to me) lead to confusion and denominations.

Should you feel that what I have posted above is in error, PLEASE correct me.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Shammu on January 10, 2005, 10:17:49 AM
We are under the age of Grace. When Jesus died, he fulfilled God's Law, as my understanding.

Now that Jesus has laid down his human life in sacrifice as an atonement for sin, those who follow on in faith in the steps of their Redeemer receive eternal-life salvation. Such faith makes all things new: those far off are brought nigh, they pass from death to life, from disobedience to sonship, from evil conduct to good works, from fleshly desires to spiritual fellowship, from children of wrath to sitting in the heavenlies. Those improved relationships are described by the Apostle Paul:

Eph. 2:1-13 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince ofthe power of the air, ofthe spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches in His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh,...were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers in the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."
Quote
Today, because they rejected their King and His Kingdom, Israel is set aside. The "middle wall of partition" that seperated the Jew and Gentile is now broken down. The Jew was placed on the same footing as the set aside Gentiles of Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel. God MADE the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15, known as "the Body of Christ." Salvation is being offered to ALL mankind today, not on the basis of keeping the Law, by [b/FAITH[/b] but on the basis of the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ by FAITH ALONE.
Yes this is correct, Big D.


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on January 10, 2005, 10:31:52 AM
THANKS for your reply. I fully agree with what you have written. However, I was hoping you would have clarified and answered my questions.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Shammu on January 12, 2005, 01:11:29 AM
Sorry, I couldn't stick around more yesterday. I had to drive 400 miles to Phoenix, and pick up Yvonne.

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Moses was the Law giver and the the scribes and Pharisees were the administrators/inforcers of the Law.

Is the above for us today? If not, Why not?
Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

That says the 10 commandments are abolished. The whole Law given at Sinai the 10 commandments is abolished in Christ. It calls the law a tutor, it then says, once we get to Christ, we no longer need the law.

Quote
Why was Jesus only sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel?
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The Lord Jesus is the Good shepherd who has come to save His people from their sins

Quote
What happened to the act of "repent and be baptized?"
When John the Baptist warned the people of Israel to "repent for the Kingdom is near Matt 3:2", he wasn't telling them to be on their best behavior because the King was coming. He was telling them to reconsider their need for a savior while they could. When Peter admonished the Jews at Pentecost to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins so they could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38 he wasn't saying, "Clean up your act." He was telling them that as soon as they changed their perception about who Jesus was and what He had done they would be forgiven. When the evangelist tells his audience to "repent and be saved... he's not telling them to become good enough to someday be accepted by the Lord. He's admonishing them to realize they can't be good enough and ask the Lord to take them right now just as they are.

Quote
My study of the Bible tells me that salvation/justification was ALWAYS based on FAITH in what God required at that point of time in human history.
A person is justified by faith Rom. 5:1; that is, he is made right before God by his faith in Christ (excluding the cults that teach a false Jesus).  We are not saved by our works or our works added to the sacrifice of Christ.  Our works, our good deeds, have absolutely no affect upon our salvation.  Our good works do not get us salvation, nor do help us keep our salvation.  This is because our good works are filthy rags before God Is. 64:6.

If we could be saved by works, then righteousness would have been based on the law and Christ would have not needed to die.  Gal. 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.Ē  But, Christ did need to die which proves our works cannot save us. However this does not mean that we are not to have good works.  The Bible clearly tells us that if we claim to be Christian and we do not have good works, then we are not saved 1 John 2:4.  Furthermore, the Bible also says that once we are saved, we are not free to be bad Rom. 6:1-2.  On the contrary, we are obligated to be good.  

I hope this this makes clear, the postion I was taking Big D.

Resting in the Lord's arms.
Bob


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on January 12, 2005, 06:28:20 AM
Part 1

DW:
I probably should have responded to your first post in this manner. Then you would have had a better idea as to what I was trying to say. I do not question or doubt your salvation, but I do question some of your doctrine.

DW posted:
Quote
In order to be in the one church the Lord established, those added to it by the Lord must be saved according to His requirements. In Acts 2:47 we read, "And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved." The Lord only adds the saved to His church. There are no unsaved people in His church. The Lord makes no mistakes. We are not saved just because we think or say we are. We are saved only when we have done what God has said we must do. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven." We must do Godís will, not manís will, to go to heaven.

BigD replies:
The Chruch that existed when Christ was upon the earth was the Jewish Church. It was not the Chruch, the Body of Christ. It wasn't "made" yet.

At the time Jesus was ministering upon the earth the requirement for a Gentile to serve the true and living God was by becoming a Jew (proselyte). Doing "the will of the Father" while Jesus was upon the earth meant that one had to do the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. Those that were added to the Church in Acts 2:47 were added to the Jewish Church, NOT the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ was still future revelation.

The kingdom that Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 7:21 is the kingdom that is be established here upon the earth. It is not the kingdom that members of the Body of Christ will inherit. We, as members of the Body of Christ, will inherit the kingdom which IS IN HEAVEN.

Jesus only spoke of those things pertaing to the kingdom that He was to establish here upon the earth, and will be established at His 2nd coming.

DW continues:
Quote
According to the Bible, who are the saved? Jesus is quite clear as to who the saved are. Jesus says in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." A person has to have help to misunderstand what the Lord says here.

BigD responds:
What help did you get to misunderstand this verse? If Mark 16:16 is in force today, then verses 17 and 18 are in force today also. Tell me, How many hospitals have you emptied out lately? Have you cast out many devils lately?

The instructions that Jesus gave to His disciples were for the purpose of establishing His kingdom here upon the earth. These instructions were never given to members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today.

Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? Doesn't Paul say in Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers"?

I fully understand what Jesus said and meant in Mark 16:16, however, I take it in the context in which it was said. If I tried to fulfill verses 17 and 18, it would be like shoveling sand against the tide. Those that are able to do those things in verses 17 and 18 are doing it through a spirit, but not the Holy Spirit.

The "so called" great commission, that Jesus gave His disciples, CANNOT be carried out today.

DW continues:
Quote
Here we see the Bible says we must believe and be baptized in order to be saved. This is what Jesus says. But men have tried to change what the Lord has said. Men today say that all you have to do is "to accept Christ as your personal Saviour" and you will be saved. This may sound good and impressive, but there is more to it. Where in the Bible are you told that all you have to do to be saved is "to accept Christ as your personal Saviour"? It is not there. Men say that one does not have to be baptized to be saved, because they say you are saved before you are baptized. Who are you going to follow men or Christ? Do not allow the different doctrines of men to blind or confuse you concerning your salvation. You have so much to gain and too much to loose.

BigD responds:
In Acts 10, Did Cornelius "repent and be baptized" before he was saved and filled with the Holy Ghost? Did Paul tell the Philippian jailer, in Acts 16 that he had to "repent and beptized" to be saved?  Didn't those at Pentecost have to "repent and be baptized" to receive the gift of the Holy  Ghost? Does Paul ever require a repentant to be baptized? If baptism is so important today; Why did God not send Paul to baptize (see 1Cor.1:170)?

DW continues:
Quote
And also Peter tells us in 1 Peter 3:21, "The like figure baptism does now save us." Only when we have obeyed the Lordís command to be baptized will we be saved. These scriptures will be the only standard of judgment on Judgment Day, and not what we think or what men say. Jesus says in John 12:48, "The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day." Are you putting your trust and confidence in what men say or what God has said in the Bible? You will have to make the choice whether you are going to follow Godís word or manís word.

BigD responds:
Peter is not addressing "US" (members of the Body of Christ in 1 Peter. 1Peter 1:1 says: "PETER, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (sojourners of the dispersion/Isrealites) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"

These are the same one that he, James and John agreed to stay with in Galatians 2:9, at the council at Jerusalem. The Jewish believer that the Jesus and the 12 ministered to were the believers saved while under the Law, and the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom."

I do follow the the instructions in righteousness, found in the Bible, and given to members of the Body of Christ. I am not a Jew, spiritual Jew or a member of the Jewish Church that existed when Christ ministered upon the earth.

to be continued:

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on January 12, 2005, 06:29:46 AM
PART 2

DW goes on:
Quote
Also in order to be the church which Jesus built, the church must worship God and Christ according to the way They have specified. We are told in Ephesians 5:17, "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is." It is very unwise not to find out and understand what the will of the Lord is. The vast majority of people do not know what the will of the Lord is. All you have to do is look around and see all of the differing doctrines that are being taught in all the differing churches. Are they understanding and following the will of God? Absolutely not. If they were there would only be the one church which Christ established. This is a pitiful condition of which people should be ashamed, but they are not.

If you are not worshipping Christ the way, they have specified in the Bible then your worship is vain. Our Lord says in Mark 7:7, "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." Have you been following the commandments of men and only some of what God says in the Bible? If you have this is vain. Jesus says in Matthew 28:20, "Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you." We must observe only what the Lord has commanded us. Is your worship vain? If it is then it will do you no good and you will be lost eternally.

BigD responds:
As I have said in my earlier post, it demonstrates that you are mixing the doctrine of Law, for the children of Isreal, and Grace, for members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today.

That is what I refer to as a "scrambled egg" doctrine. (I will explain that doctrine later if you wish.) When one mixes the doctrine of LAW, given for instructions in righteousness for the children of Isreal by God to Moses, and the doctrine of GRACE for instructions in righteousness to member of the Body of Christ that were given by God to Paul, one has to "spiritualize" Scripture to make them fit what they want to believe. Mixing the doctrine of LAW and GRACE only leads to confusion and denominations.

DW continues:
Quote
Is each congregation of the Lordís church is autonomous? The church that Jesus built does not have a central earthly headquarters. There is no Biblical authority for an earthly headquarters. Christ is the only head over His church. As we read in Ephesians 1:22, "And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church." The church is not to be overseen by a pope, patriarch, president, cardinals, association, convention, synod or any other organization that man has come up with.

Each autonomous congregation of the Lordís church is to be overseen by a group of elders. In Acts 14:23  "So when they had appointed elders in every church." You see, there is to be a plurality of elders in every church or congregation. This is the way the Lord set up His church.

But what does the Lord intend for the elders to do in His church? In Acts 20:28 the apostle Paul was talking to the elders from the church at Ephesus and told them, "Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers." The church the Lord built is to be overseen by a group of elders. The qualifications of elders who are to oversee each congregation of the Lord's church are given in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 , Titus 1:3-9.  Is the church you belong to overseen by a plurality of elders? If not, why not? Or is your church overseen by the preacher? If it is to be the Lordís church and has men who qualify, each congregation is to be overseen by a plurality of elders.

If we accept the Bible as our only authority, we will want to worship God only as He has specified. We must reject human traditions and doctrines such as creed books, catechisms, manuals, articles of faith, confessions of faith, the book of Mormon, the Koran, constitutions, disciplines and other guidelines which men have written, all of which produce new and differing religious doctrines.

We are warned in Colossians 2:8, "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." It would be a tragedy to find out on Judgment Day we have been cheated of our eternal reward in heaven; but it will be too late then. These differing doctrines have caused the many departures from the New Testament teaching concerning Christ and His church.

BigD resonds:
I can agree with what you say above, because you are quoting the Scriptures that pertain to members of the Body of Christ, the Church for today.

If you wish, I will post the reason that I believe that the "so called" great commission, that Jesus gave His disciples, cannot be carried out during this dispensation of grace in which we presently live.

God Bless:
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: bluelake on February 18, 2005, 11:31:20 PM
The term, 'the so-called Great Commission?'
The Great Commission was given by Jesus Christ, in Mt.28:19
"Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, babtizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them everything I have commanded you. And surely 'Iam' with you always, to the end of the age."

If you deny this Great Commission, perhaps it is because you deny the Triune God. Is that the reason?

God bless you as you search for the truth in His Word. :)

bluelake.


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: bluelake on February 18, 2005, 11:34:33 PM
What is your definition of 'The Lord's Church?'

bluelake


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: cris on February 19, 2005, 12:58:54 AM


I have a question that doesn't fully pertain to the subject, but would appreciate it if someone could give me their opinion.

Jesus Christ is the head, and we, saved ones, are His body.  The Church, or the body of Christ is "the bride".  Christ is "the bridegroom."  Since Christ is the head and we're His body, aren't we one with Him already?  Shouldn't we be the bridegroom also?  If this be the case, then who is the bride?  Previous to this thought (question) I thought the marriage supper of the Lamb was when Christ (bridegroom) came back for His church (bride), but now I'm wondering about this.  Head separated from body, and then uniting that head and body, being called a marriage?  Humm!

Any thoughts?  Do you understand what I mean?  Sometimes I have a difficult clarifying my thoughts in writing.

Grace and peace,
cris



Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 19, 2005, 06:02:54 AM
PART 1

bluelake posted:
Quote
The term, 'the so-called Great Commission?'
The Great Commission was given by Jesus Christ, in Mt.28:19
"Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, babtizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them everything I have commanded you. And surely 'Iam' with you always, to the end of the age."

If you deny this Great Commission, perhaps it is because you deny the Triune God. Is that the reason?


BigD
Bluelake, I use the term "so called" great commission to distinguish it from other commissions in the Bible, not to deminish the commission that our Lord gave to His disciples.

I firmly believe that the commission that Jesus gave to His disciples, prior to his return to heaven, cannot be carried out today. Also, I do believe that the commission to members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, is not the one given to the 12, but can be found in Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ;" and to preach "And all things are of God who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not "imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech (beg/plead) you by us..."[/b] (2Cor.5:18-20

To show you my reasons as to why I believe that the "so called" great commission cannot be carried out today, I will copy for the book "Common Questions About the Grace Message" by Joel Finck.

Question 13) Arenít we supposed to be carrying out the Great Commission?

To answer the question, letís take a mental stroll through the Bible. From the fall of Adam and Eve until this present day, God has always sought the salvation of mankind. He has always provided some way for man to approach Him on His terms. Throughout the ages, God has even gone the extra step of commissioning certain individuals or groups to carry His message to the people of the earth so that they clearly understand just what God expects of them. Before the flood, Noah was commissioned as a preacher of righteousness. For 120 years, as he was building that ark, he proclaimed Godís righteousness to an increasingly sinful and wicked world.

After the flood, the world soon turned away from God once again. Mankind showed its rebellion against God by building a tower and a city to make a name for themselves. To this day we know the name of that tower - the Tower of Babel, the city of Babylon. At this point, God commissioned someone else to become a separate nation through whom He could reach these unbelieving Gentile nations. That person was Abram, soon to become Abraham. This nation, which eventually was known as the nation of Israel, inherited the commission to be a light to the other nations, to lead them to the true and living God. Here is how it was supposed to work: God promised the people of Israel that if they would obey His covenant, then He would be their God and they would be His people. As the nations round about Israel looked at the blessing of God falling upon this one nation, they would ask why they were so blessed? Then they would come and inquire, and Israel would point them to their God and say, ďWeíre blessed because we serve the living and true God.Ē

Let us give an Old Testament passage to illustrate how this was supposed to operate. This was Godís order for bringing the nations of the earth to Himself through Israel. We sometimes call this the Kingdom program or the prophetic program. We call it the prophetic program because it was revealed in the prophets. It was spoken of by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21). Isaiah 60:1-3, ďArise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.Ē Who is He talking about? In this context, He is referring to Zion. Zion is another name for Jerusalem, the capital city of the nation of Israel, in biblical times. In verse 3 we read, ďAnd the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.Ē Godís intention and plan was to bring Israel as a light to the nations and to lift her up on high so that the nations would see that light and so that kings would seek out the glory of God through Israel. This was how it was supposed to work. But unfortunately, many times, it did not work that way. Israel, as the centuries rolled on, failed to be the light that God wanted her to be. Israel, herself, slipped into apostasy. She slipped away from the truth of Godís word and Godís revelation to her. This was the condition that Christ found her in when He came to the earth as a babe in the manger. As our Lord ministered on the earth, His first commission to His apostles was not for them to go out unto all the world. In order for the world to be saved according to that kingdom or prophetic program through the nation of Israel, first Israel had to rise up as a great light. Israel herself was in great darkness when Christ came.

Notice how He first commissioned His apostles. Matthew 10:1-4: ďAnd when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican;James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbeaus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.Ē

to be cont'd



Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 19, 2005, 06:06:17 AM
PART 2:
Verse 5, ďThese twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ĎGo not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.íĒ We should ask the question, why not? Did not God love the Gentile nations at this time? Did not Christ desire to see them saved? Of course He did. But He was operating according to knowledge and understanding that God would bring His light to the nations through Israel. If Israel herself was lost, she first needed to come to the Lord, then Israel could be a light to the nations. This is why He says in verse 6, [/b]ďBut go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.Ē[/b] In Matthew 15 we see that this commission applied even to our Lord. Matthew 15:21 says, [b ]ďThen Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts.Ē[/b] Notice that the Holy Spirit inspires the writer to show us this is a Gentile woman; a woman of Canaan. Why is that so important? Because of what the Lord is about to say. She comes with a request in verse 22: ďShe cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.Ē Does that sound like our loving, caring Lord? He does not even talk to her. Why does He do this?

Verse 25, ĒThen came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the childrenís bread, and to cast it to dogs.Ē[/ b] This is going from bad to worse it seems. The Lord knew His commission, didnít He? He knew he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He knew that the nations could not be blessed until the children were filled. What children? The children of Israel. Let the children first be filled. But notice her faith in verse 27, ďAnd she said, Truth, Lord.Ē Her answer shows that she understood the program under which she lived. She understood she did not have a claim on Godís blessings directly. She understood she did not have access to the glorious blessings that God promised to Israel. But then notice her statement of faith, ďYet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their mastersí table.Ē She is saying in effect, Lord I donít expect the direct blessing that you have promised to your children of Israel. I do not expect that. I just want a few leftovers. I just want a few crumbs. The Lord at that point saw her great faith and so He blessed her. Verse 28, ďThen Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.Ē

You see that principle being well established that the nations are not to be blessed under this kingdom and prophetic program until Israel is first blessed. Once Israel was straightened out, then and only then, was the message to go out to the nations. Christ made this perfectly clear when He commissioned the twelve apostles.

Luke 24:46, ďAnd said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.Ē Here is that same principle. Let the children first be filled. Acts 1:8, ďBut ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.Ē When Israel was filled, then the message could go on to the nations. The only problem was that Israel rejected the kingdom offer.

This was a problem from our point of view. But was it a problem for God? Of course not. God had in His mind a plan by which He could reach the nations in spite of the stubbornness of Israel. He had a plan whereby the nations could hear His word and they would not have to come through Israelís rising. Remember Isaiah 60:3 where God says the nations would come to the light of Israelís rising. Now consider a contrast to that in Romans 11:11. Here the Apostle Paul draws a contrast between how God reaches the nations today as opposed to how the prophets spoke of Israelís rising. Under the prophetic program, the kingdom program, the nations were to be reached through Israelís rising. But in Romans 11:11 we read, ďI say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? [Referring to Israel] God forbid: but rather throughb their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to bprovoke them to jealousy.Ē Do you see the difference? In Isaiah, the nations are to come through Israelís rising. In Romans, the nations are blessed through Israelís fall. How can that be? And how does that tie into the Great Commission?

God revealed his plan to reach the nations in spite of Israel through the Apostle Paul. God determined that if Israel would not go to the nations, He would temporarily by-pass that nation and go directly to the Gentiles. He chose a messenger by the name of Saul of Tarsus to become the great apostle of the Gentiles. When He did so, He temporarily suspended the Great Commission which was given to the Twelve. This leads to the next questions:

14)Where in Scripture do we ever find the Great Commission that was given to the Twelve being suspended."

>SNIP<

I will send a copy of this book, AT MY EXPENSE to anyone who desires it. In order to do that you will have to e-mail me at jellema@alliancecom.net you mailing address. I PROMISE to keep that information confidential and will not send any unrequested material.

The answer to question 14 is a good one.

bluelake asks:
Quote
What is your definition of 'The Lord's Church?'

BigD
After the Lord set the nation of Israel aside (the Jewish Chruch), He MADE the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15. The "one new man" is a member of "the Body of Christ," Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. It is 'The Lord's Chruch' for this dispensation of Grace.

For one to become a member of 'The Lord's Chruch," that one must put their FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ for their salvation. NOTHING ELSE IS REQUIRED. Jesus did it ALL for us upon the Cross. There is nothing we can do to add to it.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
Quote


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 19, 2005, 06:25:56 AM
cris asks;
[quoteI have a question that doesn't fully pertain to the subject, but would appreciate it if someone could give me their opinion.

Jesus Christ is the head, and we, saved ones, are His body.  The Church, or the body of Christ is "the bride".  Christ is "the bridegroom."  Since Christ is the head and we're His body, aren't we one with Him already?  Shouldn't we be the bridegroom also?  If this be the case, then who is the bride?  Previous to this thought (question) I thought the marriage supper of the Lamb was when Christ (bridegroom) came back for His church (bride), but now I'm wondering about this.  Head separated from body, and then uniting that head and body, being called a marriage?  Humm!

Any thoughts?  Do you understand what I mean?  Sometimes I have a difficult clarifying my thoughts in writing.
Quote

BigD
Cris, The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, IS NOT "the Bride of Christ." We are more part of the Bridgroom then the Bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones"[/b] (Ephesians 5:30).

To read about the answer to this "problem" go to
http://www.starlightresearch.com/Problem7.html.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Jemidon2004 on February 19, 2005, 01:37:09 PM
Actually we are the Bride of Christ. Notice in Scripture Christ is seen as the Bridegroom. We are His Bride in the fact that we have NOT been joined with Him in marriage yet because we are still bodily seperated from Him...Let me post you a few verses that show that we ARE the Bride of Christ

John 3:29

"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears Him, rejoices greatly becasue of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. He must incress, but I must decrease."

That verse clearly speaks of Christ as the Bridegroom. Now check out this verse: Romans 7:4

"Therefore my brethren, you also have become dead to the law thorugh the body of Christ, that you may be MARRIED to another--to Him, who was raised from the dead that we should bear fruit to God"

That verse shows that WE are to be MARRIED to CHRIST. Who else is it that is raised from the dead..certainly not Lazarus. Also check out 2 Corinthians 11:2

For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to CHRIST.

Note that we are going to be presented to Christ as chaste virgins...signifying Holiness and perfection which goes right along with Phillipians 1:6 which says "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" Also remember Ephesians 4:25-27

"Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE Her with the washing of water by the Word, that He might present her to HIMSELF a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkles or any such thing, but that she should be HOLY and without BLEMISH."

See it's clear to me that the Church IS the Bride of Christ and that WE will be Married to Him at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The Church is Christ's heavenly bride...whereas Israel was once Jehovah's earthly bride. I've given you Truth...accept it or not. God Bless

Joshua


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Soldier4Christ on February 19, 2005, 02:24:25 PM
Rev 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11  Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12  And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13  On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14  And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15  And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16  And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17  And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18  And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19  And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20  The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21  And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25  And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26  And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.






Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 19, 2005, 02:52:08 PM
J-2004 quote:
Quote
Actually we are the Bride of Christ. Notice in Scripture Christ is seen as the Bridegroom. We are His Bride in the fact that we have NOT been joined with Him in marriage yet because we are still bodily seperated from Him...Let me post you a few verses that show that we ARE the Bride of Christ

John 3:29

"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears Him, rejoices greatly becasue of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. He must incress, but I must decrease."

That verse clearly speaks of Christ as the Bridegroom.

Big
Evidently you did not go to the sight that I posted in my last post. Therefore, I will answer from it, and occasionally add my own remarks.

The Body of Christ was not in existance during the time period of John 3:29. It was still future revelation.

Mr Brock at http://www.starlightresearch.com/ActsProblems.html
1. John 3:29: "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice; this my joy therefore is fulfilled."

This verse was spoken by John the Baptist and written down by the Apostle John. There are three individuals mentioned - bride, bridegroom, and friend of the bridegroom. John the Baptist is the friend of the bridegroom; Jesus is the bridegroom (which is also the teaching of Matthew 25:1-13); and the bride constitutes those who believe in Him as the Messiah of Israel (John 3:28).

There is nothing here concerning the Body of Christ.

J-2004
Quote
Now check out this verse: Romans 7:

"Therefore my brethren, you also have become dead to the law thorugh the body of Christ, that you may be MARRIED to another--to Him, who was raised from the dead that we should bear fruit to God"

That verse shows that WE are to be MARRIED to CHRIST. Who else is it that is raised from the dead..certainly not Lazarus.


Mr Brock
5. Rom. 7:4, "Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

This verse seems to teach that believers should be 'married to another even to Him who is raised from the dead.' The NKJV still retains the word 'married.'

The reason why 'married' is carried over into verse 4 is because of what is taught in verses 2 and 3, that the married woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. The language of verses 2 and 3 is correct, even though translators can do a better job of translating verses 2 and 3, so that the truth can be more easily seen.

A Greek word for 'married' [HUPANDROS; Thayer's Greek-English Lex., p. 638] is used in verse 2 and translated 'which has a husband.' It can be translated 'For the married woman...' In verses 3 and 4 the English word 'married' is used three times, and it is the translation of the Greek verb GINOMAI, which means 'to become, to arise, appear, to be made ' done, finished.' It doesn't mean 'to marry' or even 'to join.' The meaning of 'become,' which should be used in verse 4, emphasizes the fact of 'becoming' one with our Saviour, the RISEN Christ Jesus. This is the only way that we can produce fruit (good works) for our Father God. There is no 'marriage' in this verse.

Since we have already been made a part of the Body of Christ at the time of salvation by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), there is absolutely no need to be joined or married to Him again.

j-200r
Quote
Also check out 2 Corinthians 11:2

For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to CHRIST.

BigD
Paul cannot betroth anyone to Christ. That is the action of the Holy Ghost. Phillipians 1:6 has nothing to do with "the Bride of Christ." How are you reading that into it?

Mr. Brock
3. 2 Cor. 11:2, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy, for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." Note that we are going to be presented to Christ as chaste virgins...signifying Holiness and perfection which goes right along with Phillipians 1:6 which says "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

All the translations favor the idea of the Body of Christ being the Bride of Christ. But the Greek does not support this. There is an alternative translation that teaches otherwise, and is in harmony with Pauline theology.

The Greek word for 'husband' also means 'man;' 'espoused' also means 'joined,' and the word 'virgin' is masculine, not feminine. A better translation reads like this: "For I am burning with zeal (over) you with a zeal of God, for I myself have joined you to one Man, to present a pure virgin to Christ" (from The Unveiling of Christianity by the author).

When unsaved people were saved under Paul's ministry, they became joined to Christ as being a part of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is called a gone new man' in Eph. 2:15. The masculine 'virgin' fits in well here. There is no teaching of the Body being a 'bride' in this verse, unless you can find it in a masculine bride instead of a feminine bride. In addition, Jesus is not presented as a 'husband' here, but as a MAN.


J-2004
Quote
Also remember Ephesians 4:25-27

"Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE Her with the washing of water by the Word, that He might present her to HIMSELF a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkles or any such thing, but that she should be HOLY and without BLEMISH."

See it's clear to me that the Church IS the Bride of Christ and that WE will be Married to Him at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The Church is Christ's heavenly bride...whereas Israel was once Jehovah's earthly bride. I've given you Truth...accept it or not.

BigD
As I read Ephesians 21-27, It appears that the relationship between the husband and wife should be as that of Christ's relationship to the Church, the Body of Christ. Nothing is said of the Chruch being the Bride. For one to see that, one would have to read that into it.

Verse 30 says: "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Does that sound like are the "bride" or part of the "bridegroom?"

J-2004, Go to the site I posted and read the entire article.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 19, 2005, 03:02:17 PM

Taken from:
Mr Brock at http://www.starlightresearch.com/ActsProblems.html

2. Rev. 19:7-9: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife has made herself ready. [8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [9] And He said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God."

This passage will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Christ. One of the events the Lord is involved in then will be the marriage of the Lamb. It is not a 'bride' but 'His wife has made herself ready.' The use of the word 'wife' looks back to the Old Testament, particularly to Ezekiel 16:8, where Israel became Jehovah's wife (first marriage); to Jer. 3:8 where we read of a bill of divorce from the first marriage; and to Hosea 2:19 which speaks of the remarriage of Israel to the Lord which Revelation 19:7-9 describes (please read Hosea 2:7,16 which relate to this subject). Israel will become a 'bride' and a 'wife' at the Second Coming of its Bridegroom.

There seems to be another 'bride' involved with Israel, and that is the New Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 21:9-10.

So then, during the Millennium the saved Nation of Israel will be the wife of the Lamb, and during the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times, the New Jerusalem will also be called 'the bride,' the Lamb's wife. The terminology used indicates a very close connection between Israel and the New Jerusalem in an earthly setting.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Jemidon2004 on February 19, 2005, 05:39:41 PM
Here we go once again...arguing semantics...letting someone else do your talking for you. I have copied and printed all of your statements concerning the Bride of Christ and I will have them looked over by another person other than me after I get done with them. the other person holds a ph.d in Theology and is fluent in Greek and Hebrew. I will have him look at it and bring mine and his findings as well. later.

Joshua


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 19, 2005, 06:44:55 PM
J-2004:
Cris want an opinion as to whether the Chruch, the Body of Christ, was "The Bride of Christ." I do not believe that the Scriptures support the idea that it is, so I just gave her a good source that supports my views. I really don't care if you like that or not. It was not addressed to you.

If your "authority" can come up with Scriptural support to show that my view is wrong, then I will change my views.

BTW, I did hold your views many years ago, But when I learned that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, was not Israel or spiritual Israel, I did change a lot of my views.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: bluelake on February 19, 2005, 10:47:14 PM
Dream Weaver,
You have convenietly quoted scripture to support your doctrine. The problem is, we don't know what your doctrine is.
We are Christians when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior.
What do you find so offensive concerning the Creeds? The words are taken from scripture. Do you follow the Ten Commandments?
Please read mt.7:1-5. Eph.2:8-9, Jn.3:16, Mt.28:18-20

God bless you,
bluelake


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: bluelake on February 19, 2005, 11:03:49 PM
cris asks;
[quoteI have a question that doesn't fully pertain to the subject, but would appreciate it if someone could give me their opinion.

Jesus Christ is the head, and we, saved ones, are His body.  The Church, or the body of Christ is "the bride".  Christ is "the bridegroom."  Since Christ is the head and we're His body, aren't we one with Him already?  Shouldn't we be the bridegroom also?  If this be the case, then who is the bride?  Previous to this thought (question) I thought the marriage supper of the Lamb was when Christ (bridegroom) came back for His church (bride), but now I'm wondering about this.  Head separated from body, and then uniting that head and body, being called a marriage?  Humm!

Any thoughts?  Do you understand what I mean?  Sometimes I have a difficult clarifying my thoughts in writing.
Quote

BigD
Cris, The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, IS NOT "the Bride of Christ." We are more part of the Bridgroom then the Bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones"[/b] (Ephesians 5:30).

To read about the answer to this "problem" go to
http://www.starlightresearch.com/Problem7.html.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Big D,
I read the site that you offered. I didn't find a statement of faith. Maybe you would  provide it. ;)

Blessings,
bluelake


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: cris on February 19, 2005, 11:32:43 PM
cris asks;
[quoteI have a question that doesn't fully pertain to the subject, but would appreciate it if someone could give me their opinion.

Jesus Christ is the head, and we, saved ones, are His body.  The Church, or the body of Christ is "the bride".  Christ is "the bridegroom."  Since Christ is the head and we're His body, aren't we one with Him already?  Shouldn't we be the bridegroom also?  If this be the case, then who is the bride?  Previous to this thought (question) I thought the marriage supper of the Lamb was when Christ (bridegroom) came back for His church (bride), but now I'm wondering about this.  Head separated from body, and then uniting that head and body, being called a marriage?  Humm!

Any thoughts?  Do you understand what I mean?  Sometimes I have a difficult clarifying my thoughts in writing.
Quote

BigD
Cris, The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, IS NOT "the Bride of Christ." We are more part of the Bridgroom then the Bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones"[/b] (Ephesians 5:30).

To read about the answer to this "problem" go to
http://www.starlightresearch.com/Problem7.html.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Big D,
I read the site that you offered. I didn't find a statement of faith. Maybe you would  provide it. ;)

Blessings,
bluelake



Bluelake,

I went to that website, also.  The first page is a page with a green background.  Scroll down to the very bottom, and you will see a list on the left side, one of them being called HOME.  Click on HOME, and it will take you to their statement of faith page which is black with white lettering.  

I know you didn't ask me, but since I knew where it was, thought I'd answer your question.

Grace and peace,
cris

 


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: cris on February 19, 2005, 11:56:49 PM
Dream Weaver,
You have convenietly quoted scripture to support your doctrine. The problem is, we don't know what your doctrine is.
We are Christians when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior.
What do you find so offensive concerning the Creeds? The words are taken from scripture. Do you follow the Ten Commandments?
Please read mt.7:1-5. Eph.2:8-9, Jn.3:16, Mt.28:18-20

God bless you,
bluelake


Bluelake,

DreamWeaver has been missing from CU for a couple of weeks now.  We are all concerned about him and are praying for him.

Grace and peace,
cris



Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 20, 2005, 02:42:21 AM
Cris:
THANK YOU for your help to bluelake.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 20, 2005, 03:17:23 AM
J-2004ddddddd:
Have your you "authority" check out http://www.starlightresearch.com/Bride.html also.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Jemidon2004 on February 20, 2005, 04:07:38 PM
Of course i'll have my friend check out the site himself. And he's not my "Authority" He's someone with a bit more knowledge and clarity on the subject. That's all. God Bless

Joshua


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 21, 2005, 07:53:25 AM
J-2004
If you are in agreement with what your friend writes, then I will assume that you will be prepared to defend what he says. So be prepared.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Mathurin on February 22, 2005, 04:58:55 PM
I will have to  disagree with the premise of the title of this thread due to my training in Junior High School many years   ago.   The  teachers taught us that if any question had an all inclusive or all exclusive qualifier  then the answer was false.  It works 98% of the time.  


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Paul2 on February 25, 2005, 09:55:19 AM
I will have to  disagree with the premise of the title of this thread due to my training in Junior High School many years   ago.   The  teachers taught us that if any question had an all inclusive or all exclusive qualifier  then the answer was false.  It works 98% of the time.  

    Well it doesn't work 100% of the time and it doesn't work this time. You need to do some studing... You'd let a liberal Jr. highschool teacher program you that there are no absolutes in life?

    I don't even know where to begin with you. School taught me how to read and do math but not how to think. Liberal teachers love to program young minds in how they should think or what they should think. Its scary to hear that they have had such an effect on you. You need to read the Bible more and listen to the way God tells us to think.

     There are absolutes, there is a right and wrong, there is truth and there are lies. Allow God Himself to define truth from lies from His Word the Bible. Salvation is from God and God will teach you his method of Salvation. How could anyone let a mere human determine their beliefs on Salvation?

     Most of us on this forum will give our viewpoints but also give the source of our viewpoints from Scripture. Cult leaders prey upon easily convinced people who do not think or study for themselves. Know why you believe as you do and be able to defend your beliefs. No human being on planet earth has true information concerning Salvation that is from any source other than the Bible.

    If you don't believe the Bible then study the Bible's fulfilled prophecy with us and you will see the truth. The answers are there for those who seek to know the truth.

                                                        Paul2


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Mathurin on February 25, 2005, 07:19:02 PM
They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him: being abominable and incredulous and to every good work reprobate.

I don't have any idea what you were talking about.  The above passage is talking about people who are in the 'Lord's Church'.  It says explicity in the passage that unless they change they will go to Hell.  So again, your original point is stupid.  


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: nChrist on February 26, 2005, 07:45:27 PM
Mathurin,

I don't think that you understand the topic of this thread.

This thread is a discussion of a church not made with human hands. The church being discussed here is not brick and mortar, rather it is THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Mathurin, the members of the CHURCH being discussed here already belong to JESUS for eternity. The denomination or the name over the door of the church building they attend means absolutely nothing. JESUS CHRIST Himself is the HEAD over this church and born again Christians are HIS BODY.

This CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST, has already become a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST. The payment JESUS made for us was on the CROSS, and it is HIS BLOOD that makes our forgiveness possible. Those who are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY believe in HIM, have faith in HIM, and have made HIM the LORD over their lives. The members have been rescued, SAVED by JESUS, and they belong to JESUS for eternity.

So please draw a distinction between two very different kinds of churches:

1- A church building on this earth that might or might not have Saved people sitting in the pews.

2- THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST that is not a brick and mortar building. All of the members of this BODY are SAVED and belong to JESUS forever. There are no lost people in this BODY.

I hope this helps. When a Christian says "In Christ", this is what they are talking about.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 2:1-7  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: BigD on February 27, 2005, 04:23:10 AM
J-2004:

BUMP

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Mathurin on February 27, 2005, 04:17:18 PM
BEP- I understand what a church is and I fully agree that a church is built of the members and is not just a building.  I thought that the point of discussion in this thread was that people know they are saved and haven't yet been judged.  Typically, this conclusion is derived from some of Paul's letters when Paul himself, when asked, said he did not yet know if he would merit eternal salvation because he had not yet stood before the Lord for judgement.  I feel that that is an erroneous belief based on misinterpretations.


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: nChrist on February 27, 2005, 05:28:07 PM
BEP- I understand what a church is and I fully agree that a church is built of the members and is not just a building.  I thought that the point of discussion in this thread was that people know they are saved and haven't yet been judged.  Typically, this conclusion is derived from some of Paul's letters when Paul himself, when asked, said he did not yet know if he would merit eternal salvation because he had not yet stood before the Lord for judgment.  I feel that that is an erroneous belief based on misinterpretations.

Mathurin,

The Apostle Paul had no doubt at all about his Salvation. He knew 100% that he belonged to JESUS.

What the Apostle Paul doubted was the quality and quantity of his faith for the work and ministry God gave him to do. Paul struggled to do what God sent him to do, and Paul referred to it as a fight and a race. The Apostle Paul described many times and many ways the Grace and GIFT of God that results in Salvation. Paul also made it exceptionally clear that no man would ever deserve or earn Salvation, that it had to be a GIFT from God based on belief and faith in JESUS and the CROSS.

The Apostle Paul believed completely for him, "Absent from the body, present with Christ." The Apostle Paul also knew with all certainty that Christians would never face a condemnatory judgment like the lost do. Paul clearly taught that the only judgment that Christians would face is for their good works and the rewards God promised to those who love HIM.

Christians already belong to JESUS, and their hearts are SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Salvation issue is already decided for eternity IMMEDIATELY for those who have faith, believe, and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Christians don't have to wait to find out if they are saved or not.  That reality and assurance is possible right now in this life. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, and that is RIGHT NOW, EVEN IN THIS SHORT LIFE. The only judgment a Christian must wait for is the judgment for good works and the reward or lack of reward for the works a Christian has done in this short life.

Mathurin, the fight and the race of the Apostle Paul was not for Salvation, rather the work and ministry God sent him to do. No man can work for his Salvation. That work was completed perfectly on the CROSS by Jesus Christ. What a man SHOULD work and strive for is yielding to God and doing the work GOD has for all of us. Yielding to God and being a willing vessel for HIS work is the fight and race, not Salvation. The thief on the cross next to the CROSS OF JESUS had no good works, but he was saved most certainly and simply by his faith in JESUS. The thief didn't have to wait for judgment because JESUS told him then where he was going after death. GOD'S WORD has already told Christians where they are going after physical death. It's a beautiful and precious PROMISE BY ALMIGHTY GOD THAT WILL MOST DEFINITELY BE KEPT MOST COMPLETELY AND PERFECTLY.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 12:1-2  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Romans 5:17-18  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:1-7  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Galatians 4:4-7  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Ephesians 1:12-14  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: Mathurin on February 27, 2005, 09:39:39 PM
This is what Paul said:  1Cor: 4

But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you or by man's day. But neither do I judge my own self.  For I am not conscious to myself of anything. Yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.  Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise from God.


Title: Re:Only The Saved Are In The Lordís Church
Post by: nChrist on February 27, 2005, 11:50:03 PM
This is what Paul said:  1Cor: 4

But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you or by man's day. But neither do I judge my own self.  For I am not conscious to myself of anything. Yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.  Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise from God.


Mathurin,

If you read the Scriptures I gave you in context, you will understand. First, there is a big difference between the judgment of men and the judgment of God. Second, there is a huge difference between the judgment by God for condemnation and eternal destruction and the judgment by God of Christians for their works and their rewards for those works.

Right now, this second, there are only two conditions - lost or saved.

If you are lost when you physically die, you will be judged by God for condemnation and eternal punishment.

If you are saved when you physically die, you will be absent from the body and present with the lord. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, so Christians aren't judged for punishment - EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE - Christians are judged for rewards.

Right now - THIS SECOND - you either have the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ON YOUR HEART AND YOU ALREADY BELONG TO JESUS - or you don't have the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ON YOUR HEART and you don't belong to JESUS. THIS SECOND - JESUS already knows those who belong to HIM, as the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ALREADY ON THEIR HEARTS and the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD lives in their hearts - RIGHT NOW - not a thousand years from now - not only after judgment - RIGHT NOW.

Mathurin, the judgment of men has nothing to do with Salvation, as only GOD knows the heart of men.

There is one judgment for the lost that involves punishment and eternal destruction. This will be at the Great White Throne Judgment.

There is a completely different judgment for the SAVED that involves judgment of works for REWARDS - NOT punishment. This will be at the Bema Seat - NOT the Great White Throne Judgment.

The easiest way to understand this is:

There is no condemnation for those who are in CHRIST. The punishment for sins was paid for by JESUS on the CROSS with HIS BLOOD. For those who believe, have faith, and accept JESUS CHRIST as their LORD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS already took our punishment in HIS own body.  (BEMA SEAT JUDGMENT FOR REWARDS).

For those who have rejected JESUS CHRIST as their LORD AND SAVIOUR, they will be judged for eternal punishment and destruction if they physically die in their sins without accepting JESUS CHRIST. (GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT FOR PUNISHMENT AND ETERNAL DESTRUCTION.)

If you want to include the judgment of men while we still physically live, man's judgment has absolutely nothing to do with whether a person belongs to JESUS or not. I hope this helps you some. Between you and GOD, you can know right now if you are SAVED or not. GOD ALREADY KNOWS RIGHT NOW AND SO CAN YOU - THIS SECOND!

Love In Christ,
Tom

II Timothy 4:8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.