tongues,pre-trib-rapture

[RichkCt]

I heard alot of talk as of late on the internet, actually on an internet chat program which has a Christian section of various rooms. Most of the rooms in the section in my opinion are a cess pool of preaching and teaching.

I wanted to get peoples opinions here on what the gift of tongues as talked about in the 2nd chapter of acts refers too

In my opinion the way I read it it the Bible it has nothing to do with the jibberish talk the pentecostal church has taught to be tongues. What I understand the 2nd chapter of acts to be talking about is this.

Well actually lets compare it to modern day. Lets say I was chosen to be an apostle. I have no knowledge of any other langauge entensivly other then english. Lets say God wanted me to preach the Gospel in Italy where they havent heard it yet. Well the Holy Spirit will bless me and give me the gift of the Italian tongue=language. Other people where given the various tongues=ability to speak in the language of the regions God wanted then to go in.

I feel that the jibberish that people say is tongues of today isnt and is not of the Holy Spirit.

I also do not believe in the fact that if the Holy Spirit hasnt given people the gift of other languages, then your not saved, which is taught by the pentecostal church, which I believe is false teaching and belongs in the cess pool.

I also believe that the pre trib rapture is a false teaching and false theory. For it to be true you would have to believe in the fact that Jesus comes to get his elect so they dont go through the bad time, then after the bad time in the end Jesus comes back for the final time. Only one problem with that folks. Says in the Bible Jesus makes but one more final return.

I believe Christians will go through this great time of trial and tribulation period. However like always Jesus will be there and protect us and get us-elect through it. He will protect his own. Just like when Moses was faced with having to get across the red see. Jesus made a way for him and the other people to get across. Like Noah and the great flood. Did Jesus wisk Noah away and his family then bring them back after the flood no. Jesus provided a Ark Jesus protected Noah the animals and Noahs family from the Judgment. The same he will do for us

Something else I've heard more than once before. People saying that they were not born sinners. They are saying that they were never separated from God. These people are saying that from birth they were automatically saved from sin. Why? because Jesus died on the cross for thier sin before they were born. Arent you suppose to admit first that you are a sinner and believe that Jesus Is God made in the flesh and died on the Cross for the sins of all. Until you admit that and declare that, I do believe your not saved. These people believe that because they have Jesus in them they do not perform any worldly sin because Jesus died for it.

So these people can view porn, be angry at people,swear, use the LORDs name in vain, have lusty thoughts, and it has no difference because Jesus took all that away at the cross..Does this sound insane to anyone else besides me..I hope so at least.? They say they were born with Jesus already in them. Very sad if you ask me.

So much false teaching going on. Alot of this stuff is believed and passed along to people because they dont want to take the time and open up the Bible and read it for themselves. People are listening to the word of man who is perverting God's Word. So many people take the word of these false teachers and dont even try and validate it themselves. So many are taking the word of fallen man and being led astray. Jesus is the Truth the Way and The Life. Jesus died on the Cross for my sins your sins, your neighbors sins etc. Man didnt die on the cross for me Jesus did. The Bible is the Word of God and is Pure, Clean, Truth. Yet some people choose to listen to and follow the tainted cess pool teachings/the word of man.

Your Thoughts

IN Christ
RIch.

[Shammu]

I heard alot of talk as of late on the internet, actually on an internet chat program which has a Christian section of various rooms. Most of the rooms in the section in my opinion are a cess pool of preaching and teaching.

This is one of the reasons, I don't visit chat rooms.

I wanted to get peoples opinions here on what the gift of tongues as talked about in the 2nd chapter of acts refers too

As I don't have the gift of tounges, I don't have an opinion.

I also believe that the pre trib rapture is a false teaching and false theory. For it to be true you would have to believe in the fact that Jesus comes to get his elect so they dont go through the bad time, then after the bad time in the end Jesus comes back for the final time. Only one problem with that folks. Says in the Bible Jesus makes but one more final return.

I believe Christians will go through this great time of trial and tribulation period. However like always Jesus will be there and protect us and get us-elect through it. He will protect his own. Just like when Moses was faced with having to get across the red see. Jesus made a way for him and the other people to get across. Like Noah and the great flood. Did Jesus wisk Noah away and his family then bring them back after the flood no. Jesus provided a Ark Jesus protected Noah the animals and Noahs family from the Judgment. The same he will do for us

There are to many threads dealing with this subject. I'm not going to get into another one, except. Matt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. Meaning that we, as Christians MUST be ready at any time.

Something else I've heard more than once before. People saying that they were not born sinners. They are saying that they were never separated from God. These people are saying that from birth they were automatically saved from sin. Why? because Jesus died on the cross for thier sin before they were born. Arent you suppose to admit first that you are a sinner and believe that Jesus Is God made in the flesh and died on the Cross for the sins of all. Until you admit that and declare that, I do believe your not saved. These people believe that because they have Jesus in them they do not perform any worldly sin because Jesus died for it.

So these people can view porn, be angry at people,swear, use the LORDs name in vain, have lusty thoughts, and it has no difference because Jesus took all that away at the cross..Does this sound insane to anyone else besides me..I hope so at least.? They say they were born with Jesus already in them. Very sad if you ask me.

This is another sign, that Jesus told us about, apostasy Matthew 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abode, the love of many shall wax cold."

2 Tim 3:1-5 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these."

Resting in the arms, of the Lord.
Bob

[Soldier4Christ]

I believe that Acts 2 is self explanatory:

Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9  Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10  Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


On the Tribulation..... I am a post Trib believer myself because of :

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I hope and pray that my understanding of the scriptures in this subject is wrong. Whether there is a pre-trib or post-trib rapture, as DW said, we as Christians must be ready at all times for we know not the day or hour.......


Understanding Salvation is of the utmost importance.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

[dmckay]

If you examine every, let me repeat that, EVERY passage in the New Testament you will discover a few things. Tongues was primarily a sign gift, as in Jesus' admonition against the religious leaders of the day that their adulterous generations sought only after "signs". The sign gifts were like the miracle of Jesus, they were meant to authenticate that the message and ministry of Jesus was of God.

In the cases where the use of Tongues is spoken about, the one thing that they all have in common is the there were unbelieving Jews present, and the occurrence of tongues was a sign to them that what was going on was authenticated by God. On the day of Pentecost in Acts the Holy Spirit came down and settled on those in the upper room in a form that looked like tongues of fire. Those present received the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other tongues.

Why tongues of Fire? First it was a fulfillment of John the Baptist's words about the Holy Spirit baptizing with Fire. Tongues symbolize speech and the communication of the gospel. Fire symbolizes God's purifying presence, which burns away the undesirable elements of our lives. On Mount Sinai, God confirmed the validity of the Old Testament Law with fire from heaven. At Pentecost, God confirmed the validity of the Holy Spirit's ministry by sending fire. At Mount Sinai, fire came down at one place; at Pentecost, fire came down on many believers, symbolizing that God's presence is now available to all who believe in Him.

The coming of the Holy Spirit was accompanied with a noise like a mighty rushing wind and the sound drew men from all over Jerusalem seeking to discover what happened. When the crowd gathered where the disciples were speaking in tongues, Acts 2:6 says: "...they were bewildered because each of them was hearing them speak in his own language." Verse 11 tells us that what they were hearing was praise of God, "speaking of the mighty deeds of God."

Now the question arises, "what was the miracle or "sign" gift that bewildered the hearers? Verse 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in out own language to which we were born?...we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."

The gift of tongues had to do with languages. Since we are instructed that tongues should not be used in church unless there is an interpreter present, it appears that the gift or ability appeared one of two ways. First, the speaker had a God given ability to speak in a language that he had never learned before. Remember, that there was no such thing as the Berlitz school of languages at the time. The Jews in Israel for the most part spoke only Aramaic. Very few had the money or time to get a formal education. Koine Greek was the trade language of the Roman empire so many spoke a smattering of Greek. Paul was an educated man, and acting as the messenger of God to the Gentiles he had a need to be able to communicate in many languages. In 1 Corinthians 14:18 we read, " I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue." God granted unto Paul an ability to speak with many languages because of his specific ministry. But he emphasizes that just speaking in another language that had not been learned is nothing great if there, is no accompanying understanding.

On Pentecost, there were Jews from all over the empire making their appearence for the yearly sacrifice and feast. They each were hearing what the disciples were saying in their own native language and dialects. Perceiving that the disciples were uneducated men from Galilee, they knew the impossibility of the disciples being able to speak a wide variety of languages like they were natives of each of those lands. The way the text is worded it appears that what is being said is the one disciple would be speaking the praises of the mighty works of God in tongues, and each individual hearer was hearing what that one disciple was saying in their own native language. So a second manifestation of tongues was not so much in the speaking, but rather in the hearing. For example, you could be speaking in Aramaic, but I would hear you in English, but someone else with me would hear the same thing, but understand it in German or Hoté Malé or whatever their native language is.

The next occurence of tongues is found in Acts 10 where Peter has been commanded to go and meet with the Roman Centurion Cornelius. God first had to set the stage for Peter by sending the vision of the sheet filled with all manner of animal life and is told to "Rise, kill and eat" Peter refuses claiming that he had never broken the kosher dietary restrictions. Three times the Lord has to tell Peter not to call unclean what He has declared to be clean. While he is contemplating what this vision means, Peter hears the Lord speak telling him that Cornelius' servants are looking for him, and that Peter is to arise and go with them "doubring nothing; for I have sent them. When Cornelius' servants arrive Peter travels to Caesarea with them to the house of Cornelius. After hearing Cornelius relate how the Lord had spoken to him, giving him instruction to send for Peter, and telling him where Peter may be found, Peter says, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons." Peter opens the Word of God to Cornelius and his household and while Peter is still speaking the "holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the Word. And they of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received he Holy Spirit as well as we?

So what do we have here with this second manifestation of tongues. Peter, a Jew who doesn't believe that the Gospel should go to the Gentiles is given a vision from the Lord and instructed not to call unclean that which the Lord has called clean. While thinking about the vision, the Lord speaks to Peter again telling him that 3 men have come for him and that he is to go with them, doubting nothing, because the Lord had sent them. After hearing Cornelius' story of how the Lord had instructed him to send for Peter, it finally sinks in to Peter that he is to emulate the Lord and not be a respecter of persons.

Even as he is sharing the gospel the Holy Spirit falls on all who in Cornelius' household hear the message and the Holy Spirit falls upon them, indicating their salvation and reception of the Holy Spirit by a manifestation of tongues to convince the Jews who are there and observing that this indeed is the will and act of God the Father. Peter asks who can deny them water baptism seeing that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did? Again tongues used as a sign for disbelieving Jews.

Next in Acts 19 Paul encounters certain disciples in Ephesus and asks them if they have received the Holy Spirit since they believed? They respond that they hadn''t even heard the there was a Holy Spirit. Upon inquiring further Paul learns that they had repented and been baptized in accordance with the teaching they had received from John the Baptist. Paul explains to these Jews that John did indeed baptisze unto repentance saying that they should believe in the one who was to come after John, that is Jesus Christ. When they heard this message of the gospel they believed and were baptized in the name of Jesus. As Paul lays hands on them, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, manifested by an occurance of tongues as a sign that the message Paul brought was from God. Again a sign to Jewish believers that the message is from God.

In 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 Paul is teaching concerning Spiritual gifts in general while also dealing with yet another dispute among these worldly believers who still managed to manifest a full supply of spiritual gifts. Showing that the charismata are not associated with Spiritual maturity, merely Spiritual indwelling is sufficient.

[dmckay]

Continued:
Paul starts out in 1 Corinthians 12 explaining that unlike their experience as pagans with being lead astray by the many varied idols they encountered there is but one Holy Spirit. From that one Holy Spirit there is a diversity of gifts that are given to the local church. Each of these spiritual gifts is given, to be used in the church to edify the body. Paul stresses in verse 7, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. In other words they are given to be used for everyone's good in the local body. Verse 11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."

It is the Holy Spirit who determines which believer gets which gifts. Extrapolating from what Paul says next it appears that just like he had to deal with the Corinthian believers earlier that it didn't matter under whose ministry a believer came to the Lord, he now had to intervene in an argument as to which spiritual gifts were better. Apparently the Corinthians were coveting all the gifts, and not all were happy with their gift, thinking perhaps that because their gift was "not as important" in their own view as someone else's gift, they had been short-shrift when the gifts were given. They all wanted what they thought were the most important gifts. From What Paul writes the gifts that were most coveted were: Apostleship, prophecy, teaching, miracles, gifts of healings, tongues and interpretation of tongues.

In 1 Corinthians 13, the great Love chapter, Paul tries to show them the type of attitude they should have toward gifts. If I do not have "love" it profits me nothing. Paul is trying to teach the Corinthian believers that it doesn't matter what your Spiritual gift is, if your not using that gift out of "Love" for the brethren, the gift is a waste. As he is emphasizing how much more important acting out of true "Love" is Paul includes a bit of information that has been greatly discussed since the time that this was written. Paul writes in verse 8 "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

There has been a great deal of debate over this passage, even on the Forum here. What is that which is perfect? There are a number of good arguments that can be made that what Paul, through the direction of the Holy Spirit, is speaking of as "the perfect" is the canon of the New Testament. We have to remember that this was written approximately 55 AD. Right around twenty years after the death and resurrection of our Lord. Not everyone could read and write, and there weren't pocket New Testaments available for believers to carry around and read at their leisure. Once there was an "official New Testament", and I do realize that they didn't know at the time that the Canon of official books or epistles would be called the New Testament, there would no longer be the urgent need for the "sign" gifts to authenticate the message and the messenger.

In Chapter 14 comes the passages that have caused all the commotion over the gift of tongues in the church today:

14:2 "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his Spirit he speaks mysteries.

14:4 "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church."

14:5 "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

14:6 "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of teaching?"

14:9 "So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me."

14:14 "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

14:18 "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."

14:22 "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

What can we take from the teaching on tongues that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 12 - 14? First, the greater gifts are those that are more beneficial to the Body of Christ. Paul clearly states that one gift is not superior to any other, we are to find out what our spiritual gift/s are and use them. Our gifts are not for our own sefl-advancement. Secondly, the spiritual gifts are to be used with a true sense of agape (self-sacrificing) love. It means setting aside our own desires and instincts and working for the greater good of the Body of Christ as a whole. That entails building up, strengthening and serving our brothers and sister in Christ.

Third, it is obvious that the spiritual gift of tongues was being abused in Corinth. It had become a source of disorder in the worship services. Others were using it as a sign of spiritual superiority in stead of a means of spiritual unity. Paul says that one who speaks in an unknown(to the hearers) tongue is speaking only to God, for no one else understands. By comparison, Paul says that prophecy(speaking forth the Word of God) is more to be desired because it will edify the hearers. Unless there is an interpreter present to explain what the person speaking in a tongue is saying it not only isn't edifying to the church, it brings confusion. Paul gives specific insruction that tongues not be allowed unless there is an interpreter present. But each of these instances of tongues is still speaking in a language that had not been learned by the speaker. In some cases, it is obvious that the speaker doesn't even understand what they are saying, why else would Paul instruct that they pray that they might be able to interpret (14:13)what they have spoken in another language. Paul says in the next verse that the reason for this is because if someone is even praying in a language unknown to them, their spirit may be praying, but for them their mind is unfruitful

There is a place in Christianity for intellect. Our faith is suppossed to be based in knowledge. Knowledge of Jesus and His sacrifice, knowledge of Jesus and His person is the definition of eternal life. Our mind and spirit are to be united with our emotions in our worship and praise of God. This is also true of our prayers. When we are pouring out our hearts to God in prayer we aren't supposed to shut off our minds and allow emotion to run wild. John wrote of his Gospel, "...but these things are written that you MIGHT KNOW. He closes his first epistle with these words, vs 18 "WE KNOW that no one who is born of God sins;" vs 19 "W KNOW that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." vs 20 "And WE KNOW that the Son of God has come, and has given us UNDERSTANDING sothe WE MAY KNOW Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and eternal life.

Christian faith is not about a "blind step" and hoping there is something out there to catch us, it is KNOWING, logically utilizing our minds.

In the rest of 1 Corinthians 14 as Paul closes his teaching about the gift of tongues we read, vs 22 "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. vs 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

The manifestation of tongues was as stated previously a sign for unbelievers to authenticate that the message and messenger were from God. An unknown tongue unless there is an interpreter present is nothing but a distraction and brings disorder to a worship service.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I see that we are having a pleasant discussion about many things that have caused divisions between Christians for over 2,000 years.

Dmckay, thanks for an interesting and excellent post on this subject. It was made in a loving manner that everyone can learn from, regardless of what opinion one might have about tongues.

Me, I have plenty of trouble with just English. It is my opinion that tongues were known languages, and there was a time and purpose for them. Please, I have no intent to argue or hurt anyone's feelings on this subject. Many in my family are missionaries all over the world, and they must speak in various languages to conduct their ministries. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to learn and use more than one language. Further, I have no doubt at all that God helped them learn. I remember many younger members of my family struggling to learn the language of the people they were about to go serve. It wasn't just the language, rather voice tones, inflections, gestures, manners, customs, cultures, and lives that are much different than our own. It was definitely a matter of almost constant prayer for God to help them do his Will by being able to communicate and foster fellowship in JESUS.

I have and will continue to pray that this subject can be discussed with love and Christian fellowship, regardless of personal opinions. Things that we allow to divide us in these difficult times are not good. We have an excellent example with the ministry of Paul about how we should conduct ourselves with other brothers and sisters in Christ. I simply pray that we can continue to discuss our differences in Christian love. Those of us who have JESUS in our hearts will spend eternity together with JESUS, and our differences will be left behind forever.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:133  Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

[musicllover]

Rich,
     Welcome, yek, so called christian chat rooms.....well they seem to be a magnet for anyone who wants to argue, mock and belittle a Christian. I learned to stay away from them you'll not get any understanding there. But if God has blessed you with a thick skin go for it.
   
Ok you siad,
....I also believe that the pre trib rapture is a false teaching and false theory. For it to be true you would have to believe in the fact that Jesus comes to get his elect so they dont go through the bad time, then after the bad time in the end Jesus comes back for the final time. Only one problem with that folks. Says in the Bible Jesus makes but one more final return..

Christ doesn't come back to earth during the rapture, we christians meet him in the air
1 Thes 4:16-17 Jesus TAKES his bride (church) out of this world and tribulation begins, CHrist hasn't touched a foot on the earth, this is not the same as Christ's final or second coming, is stated in Rev 19 beginning with verse 6 Christ RETURNS with his bride. That is how I understand and believe the pre trib rapture. As has already be said, but worth repeating, hit by a bus or raptured, we must be ready. The rapture debate is long and lengthy, I love to talk about it, compare notes etc, but not to the point of causing hurt feelins and such, which does happen.
    Speaking in toungues, ......yes yes, another sticky wicket. Up for much debate. So I'll just say that I do believe that this is still a gift for today, and very much abused, the lack of DOES not keep you out of heaven. That to me is just not right, like a bunch of kids on the play ground NA NA NA BOO BOO I can speak in tongues, go to heaven and you don't..........the gift of salvation is for ALL who believe.    
blessings
musicllover

[gary cook]

Well ,I have had good experiances in chat room .But get knocked out a lot .Once I went in .Every one stopped talking .I told how to be born again .Waited ?Then a lot of different people ,poped on the screen ,saying I was just born again .I was in a little shock ?Wondering ?Was it TRUE or a joke ?But got knocked off .So I will never know maybe ? I know there are 3 kinds of tongues .I never experianced them all .only one

[musicllover]

Continued:
Paul starts out in 1 Corinthians 12 explaining that unlike their experience as pagans with being lead astray by the many varied idols they encountered there is but one Holy Spirit. From that one Holy Spirit there is a diversity of gifts that are given to the local church. Each of these spiritual gifts is given, to be used in the church to edify the body. Paul stresses in verse 7, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. In other words they are given to be used for everyone's good in the local body. Verse 11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."

It is the Holy Spirit who determines which believer gets which gifts. Extrapolating from what Paul says next it appears that just like he had to deal with the Corinthian believers earlier that it didn't matter under whose ministry a believer came to the Lord, he now had to intervene in an argument as to which spiritual gifts were better. Apparently the Corinthians were coveting all the gifts, and not all were happy with their gift, thinking perhaps that because their gift was "not as important" in their own view as someone else's gift, they had been short-shrift when the gifts were given. They all wanted what they thought were the most important gifts. From What Paul writes the gifts that were most coveted were: Apostleship, prophecy, teaching, miracles, gifts of healings, tongues and interpretation of tongues.

In 1 Corinthians 13, the great Love chapter, Paul tries to show them the type of attitude they should have toward gifts. If I do not have "love" it profits me nothing. Paul is trying to teach the Corinthian believers that it doesn't matter what your Spiritual gift is, if your not using that gift out of "Love" for the brethren, the gift is a waste. As he is emphasizing how much more important acting out of true "Love" is Paul includes a bit of information that has been greatly discussed since the time that this was written. Paul writes in verse 8 "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

There has been a great deal of debate over this passage, even on the Forum here. What is that which is perfect? There are a number of good arguments that can be made that what Paul, through the direction of the Holy Spirit, is speaking of as "the perfect" is the canon of the New Testament. We have to remember that this was written approximately 55 AD. Right around twenty years after the death and resurrection of our Lord. Not everyone could read and write, and there weren't pocket New Testaments available for believers to carry around and read at their leisure. Once there was an "official New Testament", and I do realize that they didn't know at the time that the Canon of official books or epistles would be called the New Testament, there would no longer be the urgent need for the "sign" gifts to authenticate the message and the messenger.

In Chapter 14 comes the passages that have caused all the commotion over the gift of tongues in the church today:

14:2 "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his Spirit he speaks mysteries.

14:4 "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church."

14:5 "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

14:6 "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of teaching?"

14:9 "So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me."

14:14 "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

14:18 "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."

14:22 "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

What can we take from the teaching on tongues that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 12 - 14? First, the greater gifts are those that are more beneficial to the Body of Christ. Paul clearly states that one gift is not superior to any other, we are to find out what our spiritual gift/s are and use them. Our gifts are not for our own sefl-advancement. Secondly, the spiritual gifts are to be used with a true sense of agape (self-sacrificing) love. It means setting aside our own desires and instincts and working for the greater good of the Body of Christ as a whole. That entails building up, strengthening and serving our brothers and sister in Christ.

Third, it is obvious that the spiritual gift of tongues was being abused in Corinth. It had become a source of disorder in the worship services. Others were using it as a sign of spiritual superiority in stead of a means of spiritual unity. Paul says that one who speaks in an unknown(to the hearers) tongue is speaking only to God, for no one else understands. By comparison, Paul says that prophecy(speaking forth the Word of God) is more to be desired because it will edify the hearers. Unless there is an interpreter present to explain what the person speaking in a tongue is saying it not only isn't edifying to the church, it brings confusion. Paul gives specific insruction that tongues not be allowed unless there is an interpreter present. But each of these instances of tongues is still speaking in a language that had not been learned by the speaker. In some cases, it is obvious that the speaker doesn't even understand what they are saying, why else would Paul instruct that they pray that they might be able to interpret (14:13)what they have spoken in another language. Paul says in the next verse that the reason for this is because if someone is even praying in a language unknown to them, their spirit may be praying, but for them their mind is unfruitful

There is a place in Christianity for intellect. Our faith is suppossed to be based in knowledge. Knowledge of Jesus and His sacrifice, knowledge of Jesus and His person is the definition of eternal life. Our mind and spirit are to be united with our emotions in our worship and praise of God. This is also true of our prayers. When we are pouring out our hearts to God in prayer we aren't supposed to shut off our minds and allow emotion to run wild. John wrote of his Gospel, "...but these things are written that you MIGHT KNOW. He closes his first epistle with these words, vs 18 "WE KNOW that no one who is born of God sins;" vs 19 "W KNOW that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." vs 20 "And WE KNOW that the Son of God has come, and has given us UNDERSTANDING sothe WE MAY KNOW Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and eternal life.

Christian faith is not about a "blind step" and hoping there is something out there to catch us, it is KNOWING, logically utilizing our minds.

In the rest of 1 Corinthians 14 as Paul closes his teaching about the gift of tongues we read, vs 22 "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. vs 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

The manifestation of tongues was as stated previously a sign for unbelievers to authenticate that the message and messenger were from God. An unknown tongue unless there is an interpreter present is nothing but a distraction and brings disorder to a worship service.

Dm,
     The rest of the story that you didn't post is at the end of Cor 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

Paul is teaching the order and still reminds us to not forbid speak in tongues. Its hard to get past that one statement. How would that apply in todays worship?

musicllover