The 4 Cups Of Communion

[Sulfurdolphin]

The Jews associated four cups with Exodus 6.6-7:

Exodus 6:6-7 Therefore say to the children of Israel I am the Lord (I will bring you out) from under the burdens of the Egyptians, (I will rescue you from their bondage) and (I will redeem you) with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. (I will take you as My people and I will be your God. Then you sall know that I am the Lord your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians).

Cup 1 "I will bring you out" [deliverance]

Cup 2 "I will rid you of their bondage" [freedom]

Cup 3 "I will redeem you" [redemption]

Cup 4 "I will take you for my people and I will be your God" [consummation]

1) The first cup, drunk at the beginning of the meal, is called the Cup of Sanctification.

2) The second cup is the Cup of Judgment, drunk during the reciting of the story of the Exodus at the place where the plagues are recited. (Blood - Frogs - Lice - Flies - Cattle Disease - Boils - Hail - Locust - Darkness - Death of the First-born). As each plague is mentioned, the people dip in their finger and take out a drop of wine, because a full cup represents fullness of joy, and no one should be joyful over the judgments that befell the Egyptians.

3) The third cup is the Cup of Redemption, drunk after the meal, and

4) The fourth cup is called the Cup of Praise, drunk at the end of the whole meal, after a time of singing the Hallel Psalms 115-118. It is a time of celebration over God's deliverance from bondage and sin.

In addition to the names and timing of these four cups, they are based on the four "I wills" of Exodus 6:6-7, and each of these four cups has a name associated with it. In order, these four cups are called:

1) The Cup of Sanctification, "I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians...,"
2) The Cup of Judgment, "I will rid you out of their bondage...,"
3) The Cup of Redemption, "I will redeem you with a outstretched arm...," and,
4) The Cup of Praise, "I will take you to Me for a people."

Before drinking each of these cups, a traditional Hebrew blessing is said: Ba-ruch A-ta A-do-nai El-ohei-nu Me-lek ha-o-lam bo-ree pree ha-ga-fen. This means, "Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, Who created the fruit of the vine."

In the Hebrew culture, one's eyes are open looking up to heaven to thank God who is our Creator and Provider.

At every Passover meal, there was a cup set on the table for the hoped-for Elijah, who would come in fulfillment of prophecy and reveal the Messiah. This made the Passover meal the occasion of Messianic expectation.


Michael

[bluelake]

Hello Michael,
Would you care to comment on the two cups in the New Testament? We, as Christians are under the New Covenant.

Peace,
bluelake

[bluelake]

Hello Michael,
Would you care to comment on the two cups in the New Testament? We, as Christians are under the New Covenant.

Peace,
bluelake

[Chesed]

BlueLake -

Would you care to comment on the two cups in the New Testament? We, as Christians are under the New Covenant.

What was Jesus doing when He said, (Lu 22:19)
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

He was partaking in the Passover meal.


In 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Paul says, "Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

[Sulfurdolphin]

The first cup is drunk at the beginning of the meal, found in verse 17-18 Then taking a cup of wine he made the b'rakhah and said "Take this and share it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes." This first cup before the meal is called the Cup Of Santification. Luke Chapter 22.

 And after the Blessing (b'rakhah) of the Matzah.

verse 20 He did the same with the cup after the meal
saying "This cup is the New Covenant ratified by my blood, which is being poured out for you.

The second cup is the Cup Of Redemption which is drunk after the meal.

Michael

[BigD]

Hello Michael,
Would you care to comment on the two cups in the New Testament? We, as Christians are under the New Covenant.

Peace,
bluelake

BigD responds:
bluelake:
FYI, the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, is not under the "New Covenant."

The "new testament" (covenant) that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 26:28 is with the nation of Isreal.

That "new covenant" is mentioned in Hebrews 8:6-13. It will be the fulfillment of the covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Chesed]

BigD -

Hey, I was wondering what covenant do you believe you & gentile Christians are a part of? If a Jewish person becomes a Christian does he loose his covenantal status?

Thanks,
Chesed

[BigD]

Chesed posted

Hey, I was wondering what covenant do you believe you & gentile Christians are a part of? If a Jewish person becomes a Christian does he loose his covenantal status?

BigD responds:
Members of the Body of Christ are not in a covenant relationship as Israel is. Even though the covenant with Abram in Genesis 12:1-3 was unconditional, and it will be fulfilled, their inheritance into the kingdom is based upon the doing the deeds/works of the Laws of Moses BY FAITH.

In this dispensation of grace, we are not under the Law, and our salvation is based on FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ. NOT by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. (See Ephesians 2:8-10).

As you know, the Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Then raised up Abram to take a people unto Himself, the nation of Israel. God had placed a "middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile, and for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

We know that God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. That put the Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction. God shows that to Peter in Acts 10 when He tell Peter that the Gentile is no longer to be considered "unclean."

Paul tells us in Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Salvation today is not by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH, but by one placing their FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ.

ALL believers today, without distinction, are saved in the same manner.

Member of the Body of Christ do not have an earthly kingdom to look forward to, but a home in heaven.

For any Jew today that puts his faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for his salvation, he becomes a member of the Body of Christ and is not in a covenatal status.

[Sulfurdolphin]

 I want to clarify, something we gotta keep in mind that the term Christian is only a title, I like to use the word Believer since that is what a person becomes when He or She accepts Christ. A person does not become a christian but HE or She becomes a Believer In Christ.

If a Jewish person becomes a Believer then it only Strengthens and makes that person a complete Jew. Just like when a Gentile comes to Christ it makes that person complete in Christ.

Also the New Covenant we are in, is Universal to all peoples and this New Covenant is a Contract and or Agrement
between the Messiah and the Jewish people and to all other Gentile nations. The Messiah said to Abraham that all nations will be blessed by abraham. The Gentile world can be thankful that we have salvation because of Abraham faithfulness and obediance.

Michael

[bluelake]

Chesed posted

Hey, I was wondering what covenant do you believe you & gentile Christians are a part of? If a Jewish person becomes a Christian does he loose his covenantal status?

BigD responds:
Members of the Body of Christ are not in a covenant relationship as Israel is. Even though the covenant with Abram in Genesis 12:1-3 was unconditional, and it will be fulfilled, their inheritance into the kingdom is based upon the doing the deeds/works of the Laws of Moses BY FAITH.

In this dispensation of grace, we are not under the Law, and our salvation is based on FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ. NOT by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. (See Ephesians 2:8-10).

As you know, the Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Then raised up Abram to take a people unto Himself, the nation of Israel. God had placed a "middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile, and for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

We know that God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. That put the Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction. God shows that to Peter in Acts 10 when He tell Peter that the Gentile is no longer to be considered "unclean."

Paul tells us in Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Salvation today is not by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH, but by one placing their FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ.

ALL believers today, without distinction, are saved in the same manner.

And what is that manner in which we are saved? Would you care to share ?

Member of the Body of Christ do not have an earthly kingdom to look forward to, but a home in heaven.

what passage do you find that?

For any Jew today that puts his faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for his salvation, he becomes a member of the Body of Christ and is not in a covenatal status.

Are you a 'Jew for Christ? I don't think that's the correct name, but it's close.

Peace,
bluelake

[bluelake]

Chesed posted

Hey, I was wondering what covenant do you believe you & gentile Christians are a part of? If a Jewish person becomes a Christian does he loose his covenantal status?

BigD responds:
Members of the Body of Christ are not in a covenant relationship as Israel is. Even though the covenant with Abram in Genesis 12:1-3 was unconditional, and it will be fulfilled, their inheritance into the kingdom is based upon the doing the deeds/works of the Laws of Moses BY FAITH.

In this dispensation of grace, we are not under the Law, and our salvation is based on FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ. NOT by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. (See Ephesians 2:8-10).

As you know, the Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Then raised up Abram to take a people unto Himself, the nation of Israel. God had placed a "middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile, and for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

We know that God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. That put the Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction. God shows that to Peter in Acts 10 when He tell Peter that the Gentile is no longer to be considered "unclean."

Paul tells us in Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Salvation today is not by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH, but by one placing their FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ.

ALL believers today, without distinction, are saved in the same manner.

And what is that manner in which we are saved? Would you care to share ?

Member of the Body of Christ do not have an earthly kingdom to look forward to, but a home in heaven.

what passage do you find that?

For any Jew today that puts his faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for his salvation, he becomes a member of the Body of Christ and is not in a covenatal status.

Are you a 'Jew for Christ? I don't think that's the correct name, but it's close.

Peace,
bluelake

[Sulfurdolphin]

 Jews For Jesus   I think is what you're thinking of. If you have Pal Talk the founder Moishe Roshen is in the chat room called Jews For Jesus Chat Room.

[BigD]

Sulfurdolphin posted:

I want to clarify, something we gotta keep in mind that the term Christian is only a title, I like to use the word Believer since that is what a person becomes when He or She accepts Christ. A person does not become a christian but HE or She becomes a Believer In Christ.

If a Jewish person becomes a Believer then it only Strengthens and makes that person a complete Jew. Just like when a Gentile comes to Christ it makes that person complete in Christ.

Also the New Covenant we are in, is Universal to all peoples and this New Covenant is a Contract and or Agrement
between the Messiah and the Jewish people and to all other Gentile nations. The Messiah said to Abraham that all nations will be blessed by abraham. The Gentile world can be thankful that we have salvation because of Abraham faithfulness and obediance.

BigD responds:
When a Jew becomes a believer, he becomes a member of the Body of Christ just the same as any other believer. That Jewish believer has the same heavenly hope that all members of the Body of Christ have. There is no distinction today between the Jew and Gentile.

The promise to Abram is that all the world would be blessed THROUGH his seed - the nation of Israel.

Being Israel is presently in a set aside condition, the message of salvation is going forth through the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God (the mystery) that was revealed to the Apostle Paul. The good news of the gospel is going forth in spite of Israel rejection of her King and His Kingdom.

Romans 11:25 tells us "...that blindness in part (temporarily) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." That will be when the Chruch, the Body of Christ is raptured to heaven.

After the rapture, "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant UNTO THEM (ISRAEL), WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS" (Romans 11:26,27).

It is THEN that the world will be blessed through Israel as a nation. The world is not being blessed to day because of Israel, but inspite of Israel rejection her King and His Kingdom.

There are two types of Jews today, believing Jews and non-believing Jews, just as there are believing Gentiles and non-believing Gentiles today.

The believing Jew and believing Gentile are "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:15.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:28,29).

We find the Abrahamic blessings that the believe receives is found in verse 14 of the same chapter. "That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGHT FAITH."

The "roots" of ALL believers go back to Abram/Abraham.Read Romans 4:12 right along with verse 13. "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcsion only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, WHILE HE HAD BEING YET UNCIRCUMICSED. For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or his seed, through the Law, but through the righteousness of FAITH.

Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became a Jew in the flesh.

The covenant to Abram was when he was still a Gentile and was unconditional. After his name was changed to Abraham and required to become a "Jew in the flesh" by being circumcised, the unconditional promise to Abram wasn't changed, but new conditions were added to receive the promise. Any Jew that refused to be circumcised, was "cut off from his people; he hath broken the covenant" (Genesis 17:14).

After Abram's name was changed to Abraham, he is no longer referred to as Abram, even when they are talking about the times in which he lived before his name was changed.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh (when he was still called Abram and prior to his name change and his circumcision), hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul is speaking of the time in Genesis 15:5,6. Verse 2 identifies to who God is speaking is Abram. Abram was call a friend of the Lord and was declared righteous (justified/saved). Abram was justified/saved just as members of the Body of Christ are today. By FAITH ALONE and not by any deeds/works of the Law.

In contrast to this, James tells us in his Letter 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, a Jew in the flesh, at he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith.

So the roots of ALL BELIEVERS go back to Abram/Abraham and are called the children of God. Those that are the seed of Abram are saved by FAITH alone, just as members of the Body of Christ are today, and those that were required to perform deed/works of the Law were saved/justified by doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Now read Galations in that light.

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH ALONE which was demonstrated by dong the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Chirst" I am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justifiction comes from Chirst through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

All those that were saved/justified during the "dispensation of the Law" are saved by FAITH by demonstrating that faith by doing what the deed/works of the Law required.

The Cross work of Christ is the root of ALL those that believe.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, and the formation of "the Body of Christ", There were different instructions addressed to Israel then to the Gentiles. If a Gentile wanted to serve the God of Israel, then the Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Chirst? If they are, THEN SHOW ME.

I will follow the instructions that God gave to Paul for members of the Body of Christ. I will not mix them with the instructions that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel. You may if you wish.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Sulfurdolphin]

                       BigD Responds
Being Israel is presently in a set aside condition, the message of salvation is going forth through the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God (the mystery) that was revealed to the Apostle Paul. The good news of the gospel is going forth in spite of Israel rejection of her King and His Kingdom.


                Michael Responds

 Israel is not presently set aside in any condition, If you look at current prophecy the remanant israelis from the North (Russia) and other countries are flocking to Israel each and every day. I see if Israel is presently set aside then there is no prophecy happening in Israel which we know is not the case. In fact Anti Semtism is bringing the Jewish people home by the thousands.


                  BigD Responds

Romans 11:25 tells us "...that blindness in part (temporarily) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." That will be when the Chruch, the Body of Christ is raptured to heaven.
   
When you quote from scripture include the entire context BigD, Verse 26 And so all Israel will be saved as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion and HE will turn away ungodliness from Jacob For this is My covenant with them When I take away their sins.

David Baron quotes Romans 11:25-27 Here we are told that Israel's present state is that of blindness and I need scarcely say that the most marked symptom of that blindness is that they see not Him Who is the "Light of the world". We are further told that there is a limit to that blindness both as to its extent and duration. It is not total as to its extent for there is "a remnant according to the election of grace" from ISrae l even now who are by the free grace of God made partakers of the blesssings of the gospel of Christ and who together with the people "taken out for His Name" from among the Gentiles are made one in the church which is the fulness of Him who filleth all in all Eph 1:23 Nor is it final as to duration for it is limited by an "until."  The two landmarks are these the "fulness of the Gentiles" and the Redeemer's return unto Zion. It must mean therefore the completion of that number who are now by the mercy of God called from among the Gentiles to fellowship with His dear Son or in the words of James "the people taken out for His Name who constitute the Gentile portion of the Bride of Christ. Israel will nationally remain blind and in their blindness reject the Son of God until after the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in," so that we have no warrant to expect the Jews brought nationally to accept Christ thorugh the efforts of the Christian Church.

The church is not going to be raptured at this point we the body of Christ Jew and Gentile will have to endure the Tribulation. There is no pre tribulation of the body of Christ.

             BigD Quotes

After the rapture, "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant UNTO THEM (ISRAEL), WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS" (Romans 11:26,27).

It is THEN that the world will be blessed through Israel as a nation. The world is not being blessed to day because of Israel, but inspite of Israel rejection her King and His Kingdom.



          Michael Quotes

The problem with this entire context BigD is you would have Zechariah lying if the rapture of the church happened when you said. Zechariah 8:23 Thus says the Lord of host: In those days ten men from every language and Gentile nations shall grapse the sleeve of a JEwish man saying "Let us go with you for we have heard that God is with you."

Another problem that you have is if the raptured occured when you said then how is people to be blessed on earth by people praying and supporting Israel? People are blessed America is blessed by supporting Israel but if you look at countries such as Africa and Syria and Egypt and etc... those are cursed nations because they continually curse israel to this day they are not blessed like they could be if only they supported Israel and prayed for them and support them finacially. America is that great nation which alot of Zionist such as I support and am blessed by God.

                 BigD Quotes
Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Chirst? If they are, THEN SHOW ME.
 
                     
                     Michael Quotes
Matthew 5:17 Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah not until eveyrhting that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Michael

[BigD]

Part 1
Michael:
THANKS for your response.

BigD posted:                    
Being Israel is presently in a set aside condition, the message of salvation is going forth through the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God (the mystery) that was revealed to the Apostle Paul. The good news of the gospel is going forth in spite of Israel rejection of her King and His Kingdom.

Michael Responds:
Israel is not presently set aside in any condition, If you look at current prophecy the remanant israelis from the North (Russia) and other countries are flocking to Israel each and every day. I see if Israel is presently set aside then there is no prophecy happening in Israel which we know is not the case. In fact Anti Semtism is bringing the Jewish people home by the thousands.

BigD replies:
Well Michael, if Israel is no longer in a set aside condition; then Romans 11:26, 26 must already be fulfilled.

Rm11: 25 "For I would not, bretheren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye shhould be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part (temporarily) is happened to Isreal, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.
26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED; AS IT IS WRITTEN, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF SION THE DELIEVER, AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JQCOB;
27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

The nation of Israel today IS NOT the Israel that God will restore after the rapture of the Chruch. The nation of Israel today is a result of man's actions through the UN. The Israel that God restores will occupy the land promised in Genesis 15:18.

God is not dealing with Israel today as His favorite people. The world is not presently being blessed today because of the nation of Israel. Isreal as a nation does not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The Jews today, as a nation, are still trying to keep and practise the Law, which has been nailed to the cross (see Col 2:14).

After the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, at the the end of the present "dispensation of grace," It is the sealed 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7: 4-8 that will constitued restored Israel, and they will bring blessing to the world. You can see the results of of their blessings in verses 9-17. Yes, then the promise to Abram in Genesis 12:1-3 will be fulfilled.

Presently there are not Old Testament prophesies being fulfilled. However, there are events happening today that will lead to the fulfillment of prophesy.
--------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
Romans 11:25 tells us "...that blindness in part (temporarily) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." That will be when the Chruch, the Body of Christ is raptured to heaven.
 
Michael responded:
When you quote from scripture include the entire context BigD, Verse 26 And so all Israel will be saved as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion and HE will turn away ungodliness from Jacob For this is My covenant with them When I take away their sins.

David Baron quotes Romans 11:25-27 Here we are told that Israel's present state is that of blindness and I need scarcely say that the most marked symptom of that blindness is that they see not Him Who is the "Light of the world". We are further told that there is a limit to that blindness both as to its extent and duration. It is not total as to its extent for there is "a remnant according to the election of grace" from ISrae l even now who are by the free grace of God made partakers of the blesssings of the gospel of Christ and who together with the people "taken out for His Name" from among the Gentiles are made one in the church which is the fulness of Him who filleth all in all Eph 1:23 Nor is it final as to duration for it is limited by an "until."  The two landmarks are these the "fulness of the Gentiles" and the Redeemer's return unto Zion. It must mean therefore the completion of that number who are now by the mercy of God called from among the Gentiles to fellowship with His dear Son or in the words of James "the people taken out for His Name who constitute the Gentile portion of the Bride of Christ. Israel will nationally remain blind and in their blindness reject the Son of God until after the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in," so that we have no warrant to expect the Jews brought nationally to accept Christ thorugh the efforts of the Christian Church.

The church is not going to be raptured at this point we the body of Christ Jew and Gentile will have to endure the Tribulation. There is no pre tribulation of the body of Christ.

BigD replies:
I reject what David Baron has written.

Throughout history, there has always been a remnant of Jewish believers.

I have quoted Romans 11:25-27 above in context.

All believers today, regardless of race, color, sex, or whatever, are members of the Body of Christ. There is no distinction between them. We/they are not members of restored Israel. We/they are "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:15. We believers today are "a new creation" and ALL will be raptured to heaven "...to ever be with the Lord" (1Thes 4:17), at close of this dispensation of grace. 1Thes 5:1-9 tell us that we will not go through the Tribulation, as we are not the children of God wrath.

It after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, that the Tribulation, which started in Acts 2:15-20, and interrupted when God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7,  will resume. It is after the Tribulation that Romans 11:26, 27 will be fulfilled.

Michael, God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. In Rm 11:7-12 we see that God has set Isreal aside temporarily. Prior to the setting aside of Israel, there was a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. When that partition existed, a Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Laws of Moses, in order to recieve Israel's blessing. That is not so today.

God tells us in Romans 11:32 why both Jew and Gentile were set aside: "For God hath concluded them all (Jew and Gentile) in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all."

Ephesians 2:13-18 (King James Version)
13 But NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off (Gentiles) are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He (Jesus) is our peace, who hath made both one (set aside Jews and Gentiles), and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (set aside Jews and Gentiles) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both (believing Jews and Gentiles) unto God in one body (the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord: