The 4 Cups Of Communion

[BigD]

Part 2
BigD posted:    
After the rapture, "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant UNTO THEM (ISRAEL), WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS" (Romans 11:26,27).

It is THEN that the world will be blessed through Israel as a nation. The world is not being blessed to day because of Israel, but inspite of Israel rejection her King and His Kingdom.

Michael Responded:
The problem with this entire context BigD is you would have Zechariah lying if the rapture of the church happened when you said. Zechariah 8:23 Thus says the Lord of host: In those days ten men from every language and Gentile nations shall grapse the sleeve of a JEwish man saying "Let us go with you for we have heard that God is with you."

Another problem that you have is if the raptured occured when you said then how is people to be blessed on earth by people praying and supporting Israel? People are blessed America is blessed by supporting Israel but if you look at countries such as Africa and Syria and Egypt and etc... those are cursed nations because they continually curse israel to this day they are not blessed like they could be if only they supported Israel and prayed for them and support them finacially. America is that great nation which alot of Zionist such as I support and am blessed by God.

BigD replies:
Michal, the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is not the subject of prophesy, nor can it be found in prophesy. It was a secret since the world began. Zechariah 8:23 will be fulfilled AFTER the rapture of the Chruch and in the kingdom age.

The rapture is still future. It will happen at the end of this dispensation of grace.

Yes God is still blessing people today in spite of Israel's rejection of her Messiah. Didn't God tell Abraham that He would bless them that blessed Israel. IMHO, God has blessed this nation because of our support for Israel.
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BigD posted:
Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Chirst? If they are, THEN SHOW ME.
 
Michael responded:
Matthew 5:17 Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah not until eveyrhting that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

BigD replies:
Yes, Jesus did fulfill the Law for us. Therefore, today we are not saved/justified by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. Israels instruction, when the Law was in effect, were to keep the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. The Laws only applied to Israel, because the Gentiles were considered "unclean," "heathen," "dogs," and "outside the gate." A Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) in order to receive Israel's blessing. That is not so today for members of the Body of Christ. So you see, our instructions today are not the same as Isreal's under the Law.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

[BigD]

Part 2
BigD posted:    
After the rapture, "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant UNTO THEM (ISRAEL), WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS" (Romans 11:26,27).

It is THEN that the world will be blessed through Israel as a nation. The world is not being blessed to day because of Israel, but inspite of Israel rejection her King and His Kingdom.

Michael Responded:
The problem with this entire context BigD is you would have Zechariah lying if the rapture of the church happened when you said. Zechariah 8:23 Thus says the Lord of host: In those days ten men from every language and Gentile nations shall grapse the sleeve of a JEwish man saying "Let us go with you for we have heard that God is with you."

Another problem that you have is if the raptured occured when you said then how is people to be blessed on earth by people praying and supporting Israel? People are blessed America is blessed by supporting Israel but if you look at countries such as Africa and Syria and Egypt and etc... those are cursed nations because they continually curse israel to this day they are not blessed like they could be if only they supported Israel and prayed for them and support them finacially. America is that great nation which alot of Zionist such as I support and am blessed by God.

BigD replies:
Michal, the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is not the subject of prophesy, nor can it be found in prophesy. It was a secret since the world began. Zechariah 8:23 will be fulfilled AFTER the rapture of the Chruch and in the kingdom age.

The rapture is still future. It will happen at the end of this dispensation of grace.

Yes God is still blessing people today in spite of Israel's rejection of her Messiah. Didn't God tell Abraham that He would bless them that blessed Israel. IMHO, God has blessed this nation because of our support for Israel.
---------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Chirst? If they are, THEN SHOW ME.
 
Michael responded:
Matthew 5:17 Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah not until eveyrhting that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

BigD replies:
Yes, Jesus did fulfill the Law for us. Therefore, today we are not saved/justified by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. Israels instruction, when the Law was in effect, were to keep the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. The Laws only applied to Israel, because the Gentiles were considered "unclean," "heathen," "dogs," and "outside the gate." A Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) in order to receive Israel's blessing. That is not so today for members of the Body of Christ. So you see, our instructions today are not the same as Isreal's under the Law.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

[Sulfurdolphin]

 BigD You responded The nation of Israel today IS NOT the Israel that God will restore after the rapture of the Chruch. The nation of Israel today is a result of man's actions through the UN. The Israel that God restores will occupy the land promised in Genesis 15:18.


God used the nation of the UN to form Israel as a nation which happened in 1948. This is God's first prophecy that Israel would become a nation.

Did you know what you quoted BigD in Genesis 15:18 is the very same Israel as today. That is the Same Israel that God promised Abraham and Moses and JAcob todays jewish people are Descendants who are moving back to Israel who are the Descendants of Abraham and Moses and Jacob.


Here are 2 great future prophecies of Israel becoming a nation in 1948.

Isaiah 66:9-10 and Isaiah 66:8 Before she was in labor she gave birth Before her pain came. She delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave brith to her children. Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery? says the Lord. Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb? says your God?


Did you know BigD that God is restoring Israel every day? There is no other Israel that God is going to restore other than the Israel God has formed into a nation through people in 1948. The church is not israel and israel is not the church but those who believe in the Messiah are one in the Him.



The promises of current day Israel Ezekiel 36:8-12

1. Israel will return
2. You will shoto forth branches and yield fruit.
3.You will be tilled and sown
4.I will multiply the house of Israel on you.
5.The cities will be inhabited.
6.The ruins will be rebuilt.
7.Israel will possess you

In 1948 Israel became a State. For the first time in 2000 years Jews could return to the Land unhindered. Since then millions of Jewish people have returned.

The Lord promised to bring the Jewish people back after they endured suffering. Isaiah 40:2. but while they are yet sinful Ezekiel 36:24,25.and then to pour out His Spirit upon them and give them a new heart Ezekiel 36:26,27.

There are no conditions that Israel must meet.

1. I have raised My hand in an oath.
2.I will turn to you.
3.I will multiply men.
4.I will make you inhabited.
5.I will cause men to walk on you.
6.I had concern for My Holy Name.
7.I will sanctify.
8.I will take you.
9.I will sprinkle
10.I will cleanse.
11.I will give.
12.I will put.
13.I will deliver you.
14.I will call for the grain and multiply it.
15.I will mulitply the fruit.
16.I do this.
17.I will increase their men like a flock.
18.I the Lord have spoken it.
19 I will do it  this is all found in Ezekiel 36:7-36

Praise God this is a great prophecy Ezekiel 11:17 I will Gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been Scattered and I will give you back to the Land of Israel again.

Numbers 24:9 Blessed is he who blesses (Israel) and cursed is he who curses you (Israel).

in Yemen Nearly 50,000 Yemenites who had never seen a plane were airlifted to Israel in 1949 and 1950. Since the Book of Isaiah promised "They shall mount up with wings as eagles the JEwish community boarded the "Eagles" the Jewish community boarded the "eagles" contentedly to the pilots consternation some of the lit a bonfire aboard to cook their food. this is from a book called The Mountains Of Israel The Bible and the WEst Bank page 37.

And you're telling me and everyone else lies that this is not the present Israel that God is going to restore BigD? Half of the OT and good majority of the New Covenant is filled with prophesies that God is restoring Israel and bringing back the jewish people that God scattered He is bringing them back and that the land is going to be flourished and everything rebuilt.

Isaiah 35:1,6,7 is a great prophecy about the land in Israel blossoming.

Did you know that in 1967 a miraculous six day war this promise of God came true Israel took possession of the mountains of Israel including the Old City of Jerusalem.

Zechariah 2:4 Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns with out walls because of the multittude of men and livestock in it.. Today Jerusalem is a city without walls. At night the lights of the city look like the stars that Abraham tried to cound Genesis 15:5.

Ancient sites are flourishing again. The modern town of SHilo 1Samuel 1:3 is thriving.

Bethel is Bet El Gensis 35:15.

Mount Gaash Joshua 24:30 supports the city of Ariel population 15,000.

Kiriat Arba Joshua 20:7 is now a JEwish town near Hebron.

and many others.

Michael

[BigD]

Sulfurdolphin:
If the Israel is the Israel of Genesis 15:18, the PLEASE tell me when Romans 11:25-28 have been fulfilled. Did the deliverer come out of Sion already? When did that happen. The world is presently not being blessed through the Jews as a nation, as promised to Abram.

Please also explain to me  what you understand the meaning of "...the fulness of the Gentile be come in."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Sulfurdolphin]

Yes the deliverer came out of Tziyon already when Christ was born. Matthew 1:21,22 She will give birth to a son and you are to name him Yeshua (which means Adonai saves) because he will save his people from their sins.

Also the in the OT prophecy the Deliverer will come out of Zion . Psalm 14:7 and Isaiah 27:9 and ISaiah 59:20,21

Genesis 15:18 has nothing to do with Romans 11:25,28, because of the blood covenant God had currently made with Abraham about Israel. That Him and His descendants and the modern day descendants of the jewish people will enter into Israel and are. Genesis 15:18 and Romans11:25,28 are two different events. And Genesis 15:18 is a completed prophecy. and Romans 11:25,28 is a partial delayed and completed prophecy about the Redeemer that will come out of Sion. and verse 27 is a future event of Jacob when Christ comes to reveal His hand to the Jewish people the ones who have not accepted Yeshua as saviour and King.

I believe what David Baron said about the Fullness of the Gentiles makes perfect sense.

David Baron quotes Romans 11:25-27 Here we are told that Israel's present state is that of blindness and I need scarcely say that the most marked symptom of that blindness is that they see not Him Who is the "Light of the world". We are further told that there is a limit to that blindness both as to its extent and duration. It is not total as to its extent for there is "a remnant according to the election of grace" from ISrae l even now who are by the free grace of God made partakers of the blesssings of the gospel of Christ and who together with the people "taken out for His Name" from among the Gentiles are made one in the church which is the fulness of Him who filleth all in all Eph 1:23 Nor is it final as to duration for it is limited by an "until."  The two landmarks are these the "fulness of the Gentiles" and the Redeemer's return unto Zion. It must mean therefore the completion of that number who are now by the mercy of God called from among the Gentiles to fellowship with His dear Son or in the words of James "the people taken out for His Name who constitute the Gentile portion of the Bride of Christ. Israel will nationally remain blind and in their blindness reject the Son of God until after the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in," so that we have no warrant to expect the Jews brought nationally to accept Christ thorugh the efforts of the Christian Church. And I may add that since as has been stated the conversion of the world will only be effected after Israel is received again to favour with God and only through their active instrumentality as we know from other parts of Scripture Zechariah V111 20,23 and Isaiah 2:2,3 there is even less warrant to expect that the Gentile nations as such will be converted by the efforts of the Church.


Romans 11:25-28 in Acts 15:14,18  both romans and acts agree together.  in Acts 15:14,18 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree just as it is written:

After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down I will rebuild its ruins and I will set it up So that the rst of mankind may seek the Lord Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name Says the Lord who does all these things.

 From the book The Rays of Messiah's Glory by David Baron

Michael

The world is blessed spiritually through the Jewish people as a nation. Remeber God told Abraham through you will many nations will be blessed. Without Abraham nobody would be blessed or known who God is through the works of His salvation. As well as most nations who have not rejected Israel will be blessed because when you Reject Israel you are Rejected God Himself.  God has inscribed Jerusalem on the very palm of His hand.

[BigD]

Sulfurdolphin posted:

Yes the deliverer came out of Tziyon already when Christ was born. Matthew 1:21,22 She will give birth to a son and you are to name him Yeshua (which means Adonai saves) because he will save his people from their sins.

Also the in the OT prophecy the Deliverer will come out of Zion . Psalm 14:7 and Isaiah 27:9 and ISaiah 59:20,21.

BigD responds:
Jesus (Yeshua as you call HIm) was born in Bethlehem of Judea. Zion is Jerusalem.

Sulfurdolphin continues:

Genesis 15:18 has nothing to do with Romans 11:25,28, because of the blood covenant God had currently made with Abraham about Israel. That Him and His descendants and the modern day descendants of the jewish people will enter into Israel and are. Genesis 15:18 and Romans11:25,28 are two different events. And Genesis 15:18 is a completed prophecy. and Romans 11:25,28 is a partial delayed and completed prophecy about the Redeemer that will come out of Sion. and verse 27 is a future event of Jacob when Christ comes to reveal His hand to the Jewish people the ones who have not accepted Yeshua as saviour and King.

BigD resplies:
Genesis 15:18 is the land that God promised Abraham that his descendants would occupy. To this day, they have neveroccupied it. They will when God restores the nation of Israel.

Israel, as a nation still does not recognize Jesus (Yeshua) as their Messiah. Israel, as a nation, is still in a "set aside" state. Yes there are some Jews that believe in Jesus and are saved. There has ALWAYS been a remnant of Israel that are/were saved.

God is not dealing with the nation of Israel as His chosen people today. The families (nations) of the of the earth are not being blessed because of the nation of Israel. However, after this dispensation of grace is completed, THEN God will again deal with Israel as His favorite people and THEN all the families (nations) of the earth be blessed THROUGH the nation of Israel.

Sulfurdolphin continues:

I believe what David Baron said about the Fullness of the Gentiles makes perfect sense.

David Baron quotes Romans 11:25-27 Here we are told that Israel's present state is that of blindness and I need scarcely say that the most marked symptom of that blindness is that they see not Him Who is the "Light of the world". We are further told that there is a limit to that blindness both as to its extent and duration. It is not total as to its extent for there is "a remnant according to the election of grace" from ISrae l even now who are by the free grace of God made partakers of the blesssings of the gospel of Christ and who together with the people "taken out for His Name" from among the Gentiles are made one in the church which is the fulness of Him who filleth all in all Eph 1:23 Nor is it final as to duration for it is limited by an "until."  The two landmarks are these the "fulness of the Gentiles" and the Redeemer's return unto Zion. It must mean therefore the completion of that number who are now by the mercy of God called from among the Gentiles to fellowship with His dear Son or in the words of James "the people taken out for His Name who constitute the Gentile portion of the Bride of Christ. Israel will nationally remain blind and in their blindness reject the Son of God until after the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in," so that we have no warrant to expect the Jews brought nationally to accept Christ thorugh the efforts of the Christian Church. And I may add that since as has been stated the conversion of the world will only be effected after Israel is received again to favour with God and only through their active instrumentality as we know from other parts of Scripture Zechariah V111 20,23 and Isaiah 2:2,3 there is even less warrant to expect that the Gentile nations as such will be converted by the efforts of the Church.

Romans 11:25-28 in Acts 15:14,18  both romans and acts agree together.  in Acts 15:14,18 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree just as it is written:

After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down I will rebuild its ruins and I will set it up So that the rst of mankind may seek the Lord Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name Says the Lord who does all these things.

 From the book The Rays of Messiah's Glory by David Baron

BigD replies:
Romans 11:7-12 speaks of the slumbering eyes that the children of Israel were given. Vs 25 tells us how long it will last. Vss 26-28 what whill haven after the blindness is departed from Israel and why.

Acts 15, in context, is about the change in programs from the dispensation of the Law to the dispensation of Grace. Romans 11 and Acts 15 are about to two different subjects. Galatians 2 speaks of the same meeting at Jerusalem between the disciples of Jesus and Paul.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[bluelake]

The two cups in the N.T. 1Cor.11:23-26. Lu.22:14-20
Commonly known as The last Supper.(Passover) or today, Holy Communion,
Catholic Church refers to this as the Eucharist.
Also in Mt.26:26-27, Mk.14;22-25

May I wish you all a very Merry Christmas,
bluelake