Can God be worshiped with lies?

[Pilgrim]

Hi Chesed,

Greetings again. So what you are saying at best is speculation. God’s Word says it was the temple of the Lord which is not speculation but truth. The argument you set forth really does not address the debate on christmass even if the temple originally was used by pagans in the worship of their pagan gods. Now if Israel were to go into this temple and worship the true God in the same manner and customs that the pagans used in their worship of false gods, and God accepted it, then you would have a valid point. Although it is true that christmass is pagan in its origin is not the point of concern so much as the pagan practices and customs associated with it. The problem arises when people who claim to be children of the true God worship using the same practices and customs of those who worship false gods.

Col 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Christmass is one item that this verse addresses very well. It starts out with a warning “beware”. The warning is about those who “spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit”. Christmass is a religious philosophy base in vain deceit therefore we should heed the warning to beware of it. Christmass did not come from the Bible therefore it is not according to the true Christ. Christmas is a tradition of man that has been born out of the rudiments of this world which has been repackaged to look like something God would approve of, but in reality despises because of its very nature is a lie. Many who claim to be children of God have fallen for this lie and have been spoiled by it to their own shame.

God bless,

[ItalianBird]

Pilgrim
(are you the same pilgrim in Praize.com??)
If you are, I respect your input, and think highly of yopur comments-  but hear me out ok?
There are many holidays that are quite bogus.  Holloween being the worst. (im sure u agree) and yes there are lots of bad points of christmas,. the commercialism especally!  it makes most grown ups dread it.  and the rip-off artists enjoy the profits.  but let me make a statement for christmas nonetheless.

Holoween for example make most people concious of demonic stuff, and practice in it too.  its awful.  but consider the effect christmas has on people...,
Yes its covered in Santa claus and presents, trees ect.. but it DOES make people think at least some of Christ.  It seems to be a time when families get together and express love for eachother in some way.  It is used by the church to reach out to the unsaved via christmas plays, caroling in malls ect.

I personally was saved at a christmas play.  I am a by-product of the christmas celebration, and I dont think I would have been open to going to the church for a play if it werent for christmas.
same goes for Easter.  it may have an easter bunny and eggs as pasrt of the celebration, BUT it does at least provoke some kinda thought of Christ in most who dont even know Him.

so.. dont down Christmas alltogether.

[Chesed]

Pilgrim -

Yes, the idea that the building used by the Israelites in Shiloh was a former pagan temple is speculation or an "educated guess." We know that Shiloh was a religious center to the canaanites, it was a "high place." The children of Israel in Joshua's time set up the Tabernacle at Shiloh when they conquered the land. The Tabernacle was later destroyed by the Philistines. After that they met in a mysterious "heykal," one that there is no record of God's instructions to them to build a Temple. This is in contrast to the vast, very detailed instructions God gave to Moses to build the Tabernacle, to Solomon to build the first Temple in Jerusalem, and to Ezekiel for the future Temple.

Throughout Israel's history, paganism has been a snare to them, and even still God was patient with them, punishing them after many years and many warnings. But they were still His People.

I think there's a similar situation with today's church. A lot of paganism has seeped into the Church over the course of hundreds of years. But we all still worship God. And I believe He will deal with the pagan influences and traditions of men in time.

In Deut. 12, God says, 28 "Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God. 29 "When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?' 31 " You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32 " Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. "

Definately, I believe this passage relates to Christmas and Easter and the related practices. Christmas trees, wreaths, easter (named after the pagan godess Ishtar) bunnies and eggs are all pagan symbols of fertility and have nothing to do with Christ and should have no place in worship of Him.

Most people I know who celebrate Christmas, don't do it because they feel convicted to do it. Most of them do it because of nostalgia, tradition, and fun. I know that for my sister, even though she tries to create ties to Messiah's birth, it is mostly the nostalgia, tradition and fun that's at the heart of her Christmas keeping. Yet, I have no doubt that she is a Christian, that she has given her life to the Lord and she worships Him in so many other ways. I know many Christians like this.

So Pilgrim, you are part of a minority in Christianity not celebrating Christmas. Do you go to a congregation where others feel the same as you do? In trying to weed out the paganism in the way you practice Christianity, do you also keep a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath, instead of Sunday -- as instituted by Constantine in honor of the venerable day of the sun (god)? Just curious...

Take care,
Chesed

[Soldier4Christ]

Most people I know who celebrate Christmas, don't do it because they feel convicted to do it. Most of them do it because of nostalgia, tradition, and fun. I know that for my sister, even though she tries to create ties to Messiah's birth, it is mostly the nostalgia, tradition and fun that's at the heart of her Christmas keeping. Yet, I have no doubt that she is a Christian, that she has given her life to the Lord and she worships Him in so many other ways. I know many Christians like this.

You make a good point here. Many people of all different beliefs actually fall into this category. Not just with Christmas and Easter. These people celebrate the days that they do because of "the nostalgia, tradition and fun" and not because they feel convicted to do so and not necessarily because they were directed to do so by God. This is some peoples reason for attending church.

I know of one such person. At the end of the service that person has no idea what songs were sung or what was preached but they knew who all was there, what each person wore and what each person had said and to whom they said it to.

[ollie]

“Can God be worshiped in lies?”

The answer is, No.

Christian worship on the day designated by men as Christmas should be no different than the worship of any other day. Worship of God is done in truth and spirit. In truth being Jesus Christ and in spirit being our attitude

The secular trappings of Christmas, the tree, gifts, family get togethers, the pagan additions, etc. are not worship in themselves unless one makes them worship or does them in worship. No more than when I check my calendar for a date or spend money with all its pagan symbols adorned thereon.

ollie

[Pilgrim]

Pilgrim
(are you the same pilgrim in Praize.com??)
If you are, I respect your input, and think highly of yopur comments-  but hear me out ok?

Hi ItalianBird,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not sure if I am on Praize.com or not, if I am you should see the link to “New Life Bible Chapel”   http://www.nlbchapel.org somewhere in my post or profile.

I personally was saved at a christmas play.  I am a by-product of the christmas celebration, and I dont think I would have been open to going to the church for a play if it werent for christmas.
same goes for Easter.  it may have an easter bunny and eggs as pasrt of the celebration, BUT it does at least provoke some kinda thought of Christ in most who dont even know Him.

so.. dont down Christmas alltogether.

The reasoning you propose boils down to “The ends justify the means” we need to be careful using that kind of reasoning. I remember many years ago reading a newspaper article titled “Stripper for Christ’. The article was about a stripper who claimed to be a born again Christian. She would do a striptease and then preach the gospel to those watching. She reasoned that she was reaching a crowd of men who would never set foot in a church. She used the “The ends justify the means” reasoning to justified her sin of stripping.

I thank God that you were saved. Yet, it is to our (Christians) shame that you had to go to church in order to hear the gospel. God never intended the Church to be a gospel hall where unsaved people go to hear the gospel. Eph. 4 tells us that God’s design for the Church was a place for those who are already saved to be equipped so that they are no longer toss to a fro by every wind of doctrine (such as pagan holidays). It was the training center for those who are already saved so that they would be equipped to share the gospel with the unsaved in their community. God way of doing evangelism (Rom. 10:9-17) is to send the preacher to the unsaved, not the unsaved to the preacher as is commonly practice by men  today.

Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Throughout Israel's history, paganism has been a snare to them, and even still God was patient with them, punishing them after many years and many warnings. But they were still His People.

Hi Chesed,

Greetings. I am not saying that one who celebrates christmas is not a believer. Others here made that statement about me, but when challenged to show where I taught such a thing they remained silent, not even an apology for speaking something that was not true against me. I find it ironic that some who want to justify celebrating a lie such as christmas, will use things that are not true in defense of it. I guess I should not be surprised!

I think there's a similar situation with today's church. A lot of paganism has seeped into the Church over the course of hundreds of years. But we all still worship God. And I believe He will deal with the pagan influences and traditions of men in time.

I would agree to a certain point. Those who foolishly try to worship God using pagan worship practices are not worshiping God, rather just the opposite they become an object of His displeasure. Yet, when they worship according to His Word then they become an object of His pleasure.

In Deut. 12, God says, 28 "Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God. 29 "When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?' 31 " You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32 " Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. "

Definately, I believe this passage relates to Christmas and Easter and the related practices. Christmas trees, wreaths, easter (named after the pagan godess Ishtar) bunnies and eggs are all pagan symbols of fertility and have nothing to do with Christ and should have no place in worship of Him.

Amen! a thousand times Amen!

Most people I know who celebrate Christmas, don't do it because they feel convicted to do it. Most of them do it because of nostalgia, tradition, and fun. I know that for my sister, even though she tries to create ties to Messiah's birth, it is mostly the nostalgia, tradition and fun that's at the heart of her Christmas keeping. Yet, I have no doubt that she is a Christian, that she has given her life to the Lord and she worships Him in so many other ways. I know many Christians like this.

No problem here.

So Pilgrim, you are part of a minority in Christianity not celebrating Christmas. Do you go to a congregation where others feel the same as you do?

Those who practice truth were always the minority. According to Jesus in Matthew 7 it will be the few who enter the narrow way to life, and the many who will chose the broad way to destruction. It appears I am in good company. Everyone in our congregation has the same mind concerning pagan holidays such as christmas, easter, halloween and most everything else.

In trying to weed out the paganism in the way you practice Christianity, do you also keep a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath, instead of Sunday -- as instituted by Constantine in honor of the venerable day of the sun (god)? Just curious...

Take care,
Chesed

neither!

God bless,
Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

“Can God be worshiped in lies?”

The answer is, No.

ollie

Good answer ollie.

[Chesed]

Ollie -

The secular trappings of Christmas, the tree, gifts, family get togethers, the pagan additions, etc. are not worship in themselves unless one makes them worship or does them in worship.

Well, some people try to force a connection to Christ with these pagan practices, i.e. "resurrection eggs" for easter (Ishtar) eggs, having a Christmas tree because Christ died on a tree and things like that I don't agree with.

(Speaking with my tongue in my cheek) One has to bow to the Christmas tree to place and retrieve the presents underneath it. How do you feel about the song "O Christmas tree"? Sounds like a worship song...

Hey, did you guys know that practicing Christmas was against the law in early American history? Interesting, isn't it?

[Bern]

Pilgrim, I appreciate your desire to tell people the truth about Christmas. I myself don't celebrate Christmas as such. I do not attach any meaning or value to the traditions that my family hold ( they aren't Christians), and I treat this period in December the same way that I treat every other day in the year. I do howver think that it is a good time for reaching out to the unsaved, simply because of the name and its connotations.

Yes, you are totally right about church though, it wasn't meant to be a place for evangelism, but for believers. I agree with that. I also think that God uses people, weak and sinful as they are, to accomplish His purposes. If someone believes in Christ as a result of a church service then that can only be a good thing, provided it is a genuine conversion, and they continue in discipleship.

In answer to your question.. no God cannot be worshipped with lies. When I live by myself, I won't put up decorations either or any such things. Our church stopped putting up a tree and all the stuff that goes with it too. It is a time when unbelievers are actively encouraged to come though, and if that particular service is intended to be evangelistic, then so be it. Its making the most of an easy opportunity to witness to people.

You make some good points, and while I would never think any less of people who choose to disagree, I pretty much agree with what you're saying.

[Pilgrim]

Hi Bern,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have used the christmas issue to reach out to people both saved and unsaved. A man who works at the same place I do was recently saved. He was raised in a denominational church which taught a false view of God. Before he was saved he had no use for God or religious people as a result of the things he was taught in this church. He rightly reasoned that if the things he was taught about God in this church were true then God is not a God of love. In fact, he viewed the god of this church as sadistic and evil. He knew I was a Christian and he knew I openly spoke about the things of God. He was careful about not talking about spiritual things with me for many weeks when I started working third shift with him. One day I asked him about his spiritual life and he told me the things above and much more. In the course of the conversation I mentioned how I thought religious people were some of the worst people in the world and how I believed that the churches were filled with unsaved religious people. This grabbed his attention and he wanted to know more. From that time on we had many more spiritual conversations and the christmas issue was one of them. I shared many of the same things that I posted on this board. He saw that I was different than any of the religious people he grew up with and that I believed differently than the average church goer that he ever meet. He would ask many questions and I would as much as possible show him what God’s Word said rather than my own opinion. I tried to give him chapter and verse for every question he came up with. We shared many breaks just going through the Word of God. He started reading some books from sound Christian men and became convicted about his sin. One night he took his break in his car, when he came back in the building he found me and told me that he gave his heart to the Lord Jesus Christ by calling on His name for salvation. The christmas issue played a part in his search for truth, he saw it as another big lie just like the lies he was taught in his church about God. He became and still is (many months later) a truth seeker. He doesn’t care about the opinions of men and wants to know God’s truth above all. You can pray for him if the Lord leads you to do so. He has been fighting a spiritual battle since his conversion with many religious people trying to get him to come to their church (which is no better than the one he grew up in) or trying to tell him it is okay to disobey God in matters that are not tied to salvation, how unity is more important than sound doctrine. I told him to press these people for chapter and verse to back up the things they say. He is doing well in the battle so far and I keep encouraging him to be a truth seeker rather than follow the religious status quo of men.

Every year I start  topics like this one on different forums. I know before I start the topic that many religious people will get upset and try to justify christmas with all kinds of strange reasoning that they would rebuke others for doing if the topic was on a different subject. These people have their minds made up and don’t want to be confused by the facts. I know it is a slim to none chance of reaching these people with the truth. Yet, I continue the debate because every time so far I have received many private e-mail from individuals who say that they never heard these thing before. Many say their eyes have been opened and that they will be making major chances in their lives concerning christmas. Some have contacted me up to a year later thanking me for sharing the things I did concerning christmas, saying at first they were hurt and offended but they could not run from the truth and had to finally deal with it. It is these people who encourage me to continue speaking the truth about christmas.

Thanks for your comments and may God richly bless you as you seek to serve Him.

Pilgrim  

[Bern]

When people point out the truth that is not commonly accepted, they are usually made fun of.. or called a moaner. Or legalistic or some such thing. Thats fine, i've come to accept that I will be given those names. I've given my opinion of various issues on this forum which I know will be riducled because they require thought and a change within peoples hearts.  If someone proves me wrong by scripture then great! I'm happy to be proved wrong if I am in error, and welcome correction. I will know deep down if they have a good point and will always pray and research the points they bring up. I feel that as we get closer to God, we begin to know His mind more and more, the things that upset Him. Sometimes it is difficult to find the scriptures you need to back up your opinions, because that particular thing is not mentioned by name in the bible. It is often an issue which is part of a bigger problem.

Anyway, thanks for the post.

[ollie]

Ollie-
The secular trappings of Christmas, the tree, gifts, family get togethers, the pagan additions, etc. are not worship in themselves unless one makes them worship or does them in worship.

Well, some people try to force a connection to Christ with these pagan practices, i.e. "resurrection eggs" for easter (Ishtar) eggs, having a Christmas tree because Christ died on a tree and things like that I don't agree with.

Force??
Who has a Christmas tree for anything other than its festive addition to the environment. Who has colored hard boiled eggs for anything other than hiding and finding them? How many have any of this for pagan or religious reasons? It is done now through commercialism. Buy, Buy, Buy! $$$$$$$!

(Speaking with my tongue in my cheek) One has to bow to the Christmas tree to place and retrieve the presents underneath it. How do you feel about the song "O Christmas tree"? Sounds like a worship song...

Just another Christmas song among many. Not quite as bad as the trash the recording industry throws at us. That is the music and songs where there should be concern of a real type.

Hey, did you guys know that practicing Christmas was against the law in early American history? Interesting, isn't it?

Did they not also burn people at the stake for alledgedly being witches?

ollie

[Pilgrim]

http://www.nlbchapel.org/xmas.htm