Can God be worshiped with lies?

[MalkyEL]

Pilgram wrote:
Back to the question, “Can God be worshiped in lies?” Is the RCC mass a biblical truth or is it a diabolical lie? Is not the term christmas a lie in and of itself? What is merry about the RCC mass which is used by Satan to blind mens eyes to the light of the true gospel? If the very nature of christmas is a lie can God be worshiped by it?

Nana:
What you are saying, is that God expects us to have perfect theology before we can worship Him.  Most Christians are unaware of the pagan roots of Christmas or its ties to the RCC.

Before I knew the truth, I still believed in God and worshipped Him with all my heart.  It was no different when I learned the truth, except I had a choice to make for myself how I was going to handle it.  The worship is still the same, because I love Him with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength.

As Shylynne pointed out, we worship in Spirit and in Truth, our religious system does not condemn us, our hearts do if they do not belong to God.

Shalom, Nana

[nChrist]

Brother Pilgrim,

An RCC Mass is a moot issue and is not relevant unless you are having an RCC Mass to celebrate Christmas. My family and church wouldn't have a clue what an RCC Christmas Mass is, and what we do would bear no resemblance. As a result, this is simply a silly argument to divide Christians.

We will pack the church and have a great time in the LORD. We might even have some milk and cookies for the kids, coffee and cake for the adults, and maybe some homemade pies. We will have much longer Bible study and worship service. We will do quite a bit more Gospel singing, including several special songs from the children. We will all go home tired and completely guilt free. It will really be the opposite, as we will be happy and fulfilled with worship of Jesus.

It's almost amazing that you are actually saying that Christians can't worship Jesus on Christmas, nor can they have church services. Brother Pilgrim, it's fine if you wish to close the church and hide at home on Christmas. However, I don't choose to do that. I guess we could all hide on any day associated with the pagans, but that would be all days. It's also fine for you or anyone else who feels any guilt to not do anything associated with Christmas. If you feel guilt, by all means, don't do it. I don't feel guilt, so I will have Christmas with my family at home and at church.

On the other side of the coin, there is a move to ban the word Christmas in all government buildings, including schools. That's because it is associated with Christ. There is also a demand to remove the word Christmas as a holiday and replace it with something like winter break. Maybe you could just have a winter break party and use it as an excuse to have special church services and family gatherings to worship the LORD. Call it whatever you wish or whatever you don't feel guilty about. I'll call it Christmas and have no problem at all.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Saved_4ever]

Wow this really reminds me of Paul telling us the "truth" of "things" and how to handle them.  I mean he wasting eating meat sacraficed to false gods.  Could you imagine what pilgram would do to us if he found out we did the same??  Yet PAul tells us that there is nothing evil about the meat sacraficed to false gods and we can eat anything so long as give thanks for it.  No meat is unclean and no statue posseses evil.  Not unless you do these things even though you believe they wrong.

Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom 14:8  For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13  Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15  But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16  Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19  Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20  For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So brother pilgram if you feel so strongly about this issue by all means you do what seemeth right by you.  We will not impose anything upon you.  I believe this is what BEP is saying.  

Just as a side not though.  If you knew how many things were of "pagan" origin you might find yourself living under a rock.  For instance are you married?  Do you have a wedding band on your finger?  That is also of "pagan" origin but I bet you aren't going to toss it away.  

 

Take care and God bless,
Jason

[Pilgrim]

Just as a side not though.  If you knew how many things were of "pagan" origin you might find yourself living under a rock.  For instance are you married?  Do you have a wedding band on your finger?  That is also of "pagan" origin but I bet you aren't going to toss it away.  

 

Take care and God bless,
Jason

My wife and I do not wear wedding bans. We see no need to as they mean nothing to us. We have a very solid marriage relationship that has already lasted over 20 years. I don’t know any thing about pagan origins of the wedding ring. Even if it were true you are missing the point. christmas is wrong because of the pagan worship that is copied and baptized in Christian terminology and meaning and offered to the true God rather than the demon it was intended for.

Jer 10:1 “ Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2  Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3  For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4  They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5  They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.”    

Here is how christmas was celebrated in Jeremiah’s day. At the winter solstice when the heathen were dismayed at the signs of the heavens they would go out and cut down an evergreen tree fasten it with nails and hammer so that it would not move and then decorated it. History tells us these pagans would celebrate Natalis Solis Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun. They were celebrating the birth of their pagan god. God says learn not these ways.

The RCC comes along and cannot keep the pagans from these practices on the winter solstice so they steal the pagan holiday with all the customs which are still present in christmas celebrations today. They change the birth of the SUN god into the birth of the RCC god and change the meanings of the different customs into so-called biblical meanings. They did just the opposite of what the true God commanded.

God commands us to remember the death of His Son but He never commanded us or gave license to us to celebrate His birth. If God wanted us to celebrate the birth of His Son it would have been instituted while Christ Jesus walk this earth as a man. Yet, there is no command or practice of it found in the Word of God. What we do find in God’s Word is a condemnation of learning to worship like the pagans and coping their ways.

Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Brother Pilgrim,

An RCC Mass is a moot issue and is not relevant unless you are having an RCC Mass to celebrate Christmas. My family and church wouldn't have a clue what an RCC Christmas Mass is, and what we do would bear no resemblance. As a result, this is simply a silly argument to divide Christians.

Do you wish people a “merry christmas”? Does not God’s Word command us to speak truth to one another and to put away lying?

Eph 4:25 “Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.”

Is the christ of the mass the true Christ? Is the mass a biblical truth or a religious lie? Just because your family and friends are ignorant of the RCC mass does that make it okay to speak a lie to them?

We will pack the church and have a great time in the LORD. We might even have some milk and cookies for the kids, coffee and cake for the adults, and maybe some homemade pies. We will have much longer Bible study and worship service. We will do quite a bit more Gospel singing, including several special songs from the children. We will all go home tired and completely guilt free. It will really be the opposite, as we will be happy and fulfilled with worship of Jesus.

Does this make embracing a lie okay?

It's almost amazing that you are actually saying that Christians can't worship Jesus on Christmas, nor can they have church services.

Where did I say these things?

Brother Pilgrim, it's fine if you wish to close the church and hide at home on Christmas. However, I don't choose to do that. I guess we could all hide on any day associated with the pagans, but that would be all days.

Where did you come up with this? I assume you are refferring to December 25 when you say christmas. I treat it like I do any other day which is to honor the true God in truth not by trying to offer strange fire.

pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Pilgram wrote:
Back to the question, “Can God be worshiped in lies?” Is the RCC mass a biblical truth or is it a diabolical lie? Is not the term christmas a lie in and of itself? What is merry about the RCC mass which is used by Satan to blind mens eyes to the light of the true gospel? If the very nature of christmas is a lie can God be worshiped by it?

Nana:
What you are saying, is that God expects us to have perfect theology before we can worship Him.  Most Christians are unaware of the pagan roots of Christmas or its ties to the RCC.

Before I knew the truth, I still believed in God and worshipped Him with all my heart.  It was no different when I learned the truth, except I had a choice to make for myself how I was going to handle it.  The worship is still the same, because I love Him with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength.

As Shylynne pointed out, we worship in Spirit and in Truth, our religious system does not condemn us, our hearts do if they do not belong to God.

Shalom, Nana

I take it then that your answer is yes, that God can be worshiped with lies as long as the person is sincere and ignorant concerning the lies of pagan worship. Is this correct?

Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

John 4:23 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

"Romans 14 is taken horrendously out of context to justify these pagan holidays."

It appears you are also taking scripture out of context to support an arguement against said pagan holidays?
 
To worship in spirit simply indicates genuine worship from the heart.  Worship in truth means worship grounded in God’s Word.   The basic requirement is that we are to worship Christ alone, and not  allow any person or thing to be glorified in our lives beside Him. We observe many rituals and celebrations in our daily lives, none of which diminish our dedication  towards Christ, unless we allow it to.  You can toss out the decor, and turn out the lights, refuse to buy gifts, and send away the carolers, none of which  says anything about how much you love God, or wether you worship Him in spirit and in truth, nor does it make  you anymore "righteous" than the guy who lights up the neighborhood, or your worship more acceptable to Him.
Determine for yourself if you indeed worship in spirt and truth.

So are you saying that Jesus was wrong when He told the Samaritan woman that they did not even know who they worshiped? That God was wrong to kill two priest who offered Him strange fire? That God was wrong to reject Cain’s offering?
To worship in spirit goes hand in hand with worshiping in truth. It is not a matter of one or the other but both. To worship in the spirit simply means you are walking according to the Spirit. That means your conduct is according to Gal. 5

Gal 5:22 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
 
You cannot be walking in the Spirit when walking in a lie no matter how sincere you are. Nor can you be walking in the truth when walking in a lie?

Pilgrim

[MalkyEL]

Pilgram,
    You are speaking of Scripture in which people were fully aware of what was pagan and what was not.  
     The men who had strange fire were in open rebellion to Moses and to God.
      Christians who are ignorant of the root of Christmas are not knowledgeable and many celebrate out of love for Jesus Christ.  I did not say it was right.
       As I stated before, when you have the truth you need to seek God on how best to handle it.  
       I think you have forgotten that God is merciful and gracious.  He has forgiven the worst of sinners - even David, who continued to sin by having multiple concubines [he knew better].  God called him a "man after His own heart", in spite of sin - because God looks at the heart of man. [ps:  David is the only one that is mentioned by name to reign as a Prince along side of Jesus when He returns - and in Rev 22, Jesus is referrred to as the Root and OffSpring of David].
        What you are saying is that none of the people who celebrate Christmas are children of the Most High God.  This is man's perversion of the grace of God, who separates bone from marrow, and soul from spirit - who scans and updates our motives and intents continually - this is how He deals with the hearts of all of us.
        What you are prescribing is a works based system of continued salvation.  Everything that we do and say - even the words we use to worship God are pagan in origin.  Does this mean we keep our mouths shut?
        As I stated earlier, if you want to judge, then cast the first stone - if you are without sin.

Shalom, Nana

[Rich]

Pilgrim, it is you who is spreading lies, and obviously has no clue whatsoever about what a RCC mass is, or about the many other odd claims you make, but i suspect you are already aware of this now aren't you? Your whole object here is to spread your brand of bigotry, and ignorance.
  I'm not allowed to say anything defending the RCC as you call it due to past problems here, note the Catholic, protestant war is over at the top of the category lists, but sooner or later there ends up being someone like you who just can't hold back, and has to show everybody else what a 'true Christian' is, and how 'true Christians' worship or don't worship in your case.
   I do hope that everyone here has a great thanksgiving, a blessed merry Christmas, and happy new year.
   

[Pilgrim]

       What you are saying is that none of the people who celebrate Christmas are children of the Most High God.

 

Please show me where I said this?

       What you are prescribing is a works based system of continued salvation.  

Where have I taught this?

Everything that we do and say - even the words we use to worship God are pagan in origin.  Does this mean we keep our mouths shut?

Once again, just because pagans speak doesn’t mean that I am sinning because I speak. If I copy them and use speech in the same manor they do such as cursing then that is another story.

       As I stated earlier, if you want to judge, then cast the first stone - if you are without sin.

Was Paul without sin when he judged this matter?

1Co 5:1 “It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,”

How is the following to take place in regards to your unscriptural view of judging?

1Co 6:2 “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4  If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5  I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?”

Years ago they had a gay pride day parade in a small city by me. I remember  when those professing Christ showed up with their protest signs condemning sodomy, the sodomites raised rock with the words “He who is without sin cast the first stone” painted on them. I always find it strange how people use these passages to protect sin. Do you realize that you are judging me at the same time you are trying to tell me I cannot judge? Why is the misuse of the pasasage you use apply to me and not yourself?

Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Pilgram,
    You are speaking of Scripture in which people were fully aware of what was pagan and what was not.  
     The men who had strange fire were in open rebellion to Moses and to God.
      Christians who are ignorant of the root of Christmas are not knowledgeable and many celebrate out of love for Jesus Christ.  I did not say it was right.

So, you are saying they can worship God with a lie so long as it is done in ignorance, correct?

If it is wrong then isn’t correcting the wrong the godly thing to do? The Corinthians were doing just about every thing wrong and Paul sent them letters of correction. Was he wrong? Shouldn’t he have let them go on in their ignorance rather than judging them and their wrong practices? Do you think Cain made his offering knowing beforehand that it was going to be rejected by God? How about Uzzah:

2Sa 6:3 “And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart. 4  And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark. 5  And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. 6  And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. 7  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. 8  And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day. 9  And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?”
 
Was God wrong for killing him? After all wasn’t it a noble think he did (keep the Ark from falling)? Don’t you think his heart was sincere when he steadied the Ark? How about the worship David and the house of Israel offered to God at this event? Do you think God was please with it? Were they sincere in their worship?    

Pilgrim

[nChrist]

Pilgrim,

I love you as a Brother in Christ. You obviously don't know what I do on Christmas or any other day. However, you should have a pretty good idea that I am a strong and mature Christian. It's really all about what you do with every day, not just a single day or a group of days called holidays. I could really care less what the pagans did, and I do know what my family and I do with every day.

My family and I rest safe and secure in the mighty Hands of Jesus every day, and we worship Him every day. It really doesn't matter what day of the week or month it is. We could also have church services every day of the year with worship and praise of our Lord and Saviour. What the pagans or the world does with those days means nothing, it's what we do with those days.

We have no guilt or shame with what we do with any day, and there should never be any shame or guilt associated with worship and praise for our LORD and SAVIOUR. Whatever causes shame or guilt for you, don't do it. If something you eat causes shame or guilt for you, don't eat it. Whatever causes shame or guilt for you, don't do it.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Chesed]

Hi all -

Pilgrim, I completely agree with you about Christmas. It is from paganism. What fellowship does darkness have with light? I am glad to see some Christians reject it. I agree that we should (gently) encourage our brothers and sisters to reject celebrating Christmas.

I remember reading in my history class how many pagans were forced to accept Christianity during the reign of Constantine. These pagans had no problems at all switching gods. But they had a difficult time giving up their traditions. This is where we get Christmas and Easter (as well as other things). A good analogy to this would be if you were to marry someone who was divorced or widowed. How would you feel if your spouse celebrated your anniversary and birthday on the days he/she celebrated his/her former spouses anniversary and birthday? Well, if you were like me, that wouldn't fly. My husband would be in the dog house if he brought me flowers to celebrate the anniversary he had with his ex-girlfriend.  

My sister is the only other person in my family who is a Christian walking in faith. She celebrates Christmas. I have no doubts about her sincerity and her salvation. However, I know that her worship of the Lord in celebrating Christmas gets clouded by Christmas trees (3 of them this year!), decorations, presents, parties, etc. I know this also from experience, I grew up celebrating Christmas like this. Christ gets lost in the hustle-bustle of the season. That's why people have to remind each other, "Jesus is the reason for the season."

One of the families of my congregation decided to stop celebrating Christmas a few years ago. I was talking to the mother of the family as she described discussing this change with her children. She asked them what was the hardest part for them not celebrating Christmas. She said they were ashamed to admit it, but it was hardest for them to give up the Christmas presents.

Even though I don't agree with celebrating Christmas, I do believe that God is still honored by the sincerity of my brothers and sisters who do. I want to point out that the "temple" described in I & II Samuel, was most likely a pagan temple, yet God called out to Samuel from that place and accepted sacrifices and worship there.

I think if we celebrate the Biblical festivals that God calls for in the Bible, we can't go wrong: By celebrating Passover, we are remembering Jesus' sacrifice for us. By celebrating the feast of First Fruits, we recognize that Jesus resurrected and was the first fruits of the dead. By celebrating the feast of weeks (Shavuot) or Pentecost we are celebrating the giving of the Holy Spirit. By celebrating Rosh Hashana, we are celebrating the time when our Messiah will return. By celebratin Yom Kippur (day of atonements), we are celebrating the atonement we have through Messiah's blood and that only through His blood can we stand through the Judgement Day. By celebrating the feast of Tabernacles (sukkot), we celebrate God becoming flesh and dwelling among us. By celebrating the feast of Dedication (Hanukkah), we celebrate being separate and not assimilated in this world, that we are "the light of the world." (It's interesting that Hanukkah this year falls during the darkest week of the year, when the days are the shortest.) It's also interesting how each Biblical festival is so intrinsically tied to Messiah and our salvation through Him -- that's the way God designed it.

My pastor says, "You'll never see a Passover edition of Playboy magazine."

[Pilgrim]

Even though I don't agree with celebrating Christmas, I do believe that God is still honored by the sincerity of my brothers and sisters who do. I want to point out that the "temple" described in I & II Samuel, was most likely a pagan temple, yet God called out to Samuel from that place and accepted sacrifices and worship there.

Hello Chesed,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Why do you believe the temple was a pagan place of worship? Is this just speculation on your part or does the Word of God teach this somewhere? Doing a word search in my Bible program bought up only 3 references for the word temple in 1 & 2 Samuel and all 3 says it was the temple of the Lord.

1Sa 1:9 “So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.”

1Sa 3:3 “And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;”

2Sa 22:7 “In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.”

God bless,
Pilgrim

[Chesed]

Hi there Pilgrim -

Why do you believe the temple was a pagan place of worship?

Well, first of all the temple we are talking about here in Samuel is before the first Temple in Jerusalem built by Solomon.

The Hebrew word for temple here in 1Samuel is "Haykal" which means temple or palace (Here's the concordance: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1100883630-3624.html), but "haykal" is not used previously in the OT to refer to the tabernacle.

1Sa 1:9 “So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.”

The Hebrew word in this verse for "post" is "mezuzah" which is doorpost. The tabernacle didn't have doorposts, because it
didn't have any doors.

1Sa 3:3 “And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;”

If this temple in Samuel were a legitimate temple or the tabernacle, the ark of God would be in the Holy of Holies and Samuel would not be allowed to sleep there.

Also, this temple is in Shiloh which is on a hill. The pagans used high places to build their temples.

So it seems that the children of Israel used this former pagan temple as a temple to worship God after the exodus from Egypt (there are references to this temple in Shiloh in Judges), and before Solomon's Temple.

So going back to the Christmas issue, I think this is a great analogy of how God does still accept the worship of the sincere, despite the pollution of paganism. I'm not using this to say that it is good to allow pagan practices. I think we should strive to worship God the way He asked us to worship Him. Obviously, there were negative consequences to the influence of paganism to the Children of Israel all over the Bible.

Take care,
Chesed