Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?

[headbowed2him]

President Bush claims to be against Abortion.  Abortion is killing.  But President Bush sends OUR armies into Iraq to kill people. They kill innocent civilians and Iraqi babies.

Why are we Christians not calling for President Bush to stop the killing of Iraqi babies?  Why aren't we calling for the President to stop killing ALL people - born and unborn?

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

The verse is not thou shalt not kill, if your translation says this I advise you to find one that doesnt and discard this one.

The verse states "Thou shalt not MURDER"

If the verse said thou shalt not kill then in the wars that were fought as God's chosen people fought for the Holy Land would have went against his own law.

NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT EVEN SUGEST THAT WARS ARE AGAINST GOD.  NT or OT.

Also abortion kills many many more babies each week than Iraqis killed in this entire war.

Love,
Caleb

[wrg]

The crusades
The Spanish Inquisition
The Reformation
The witch trials
The Holocaust

All that death and more iin the name of Christ.

It would perhaps be unacceptable in some circles to point out the fact that in many European countries, religion plays an even smaller role in people's lives than it does in America - yet levels of violence are lower than here. Were a lack of religion any sort of cause of violence, then we would find higher amounts of violence in countries like Germany rather than Ireland, where both religion and violence have been prominent in daily life.

Facts like this must lead any rational person to treat claim of religion as a solution to our ills - real or perceived - with real skepticism. Religion has in fact done even more to promote base inhumanity when it has become wedded to ruling political powers. It has been a common pattern throughout human history that wherever religious dogmas have gained worldly power, violence was abetted rather than stopped. Even if a person were to successfully argue that none of the violence was caused by religion, the fact would remain that religion not only failed to stop it, but has actually served as a useful tool for those perpetuating it.

Is Christianity only a religion of Peace and Love? I do not think that anyone can honestly and objectively examine American or European history and answer "yes" to that question. Christianity can encourage Peace and Love - but it certainly need not, and it quite often has done just the opposite. Although the people responsible for violence might have found a way to express their hatred without Christianity, it cannot be ignored that Christianity offers a convenient divine mandate for hatred and violent acts against a wide range of people.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%     Keanon, I wonder if someone went out and wrote a bunch of checks in your name,  would it be fair for the people who received those checks to expect you to cover them???    I m sure if that was the case you would feel quite justified in refusing to take responsability.   Many people have done horiffic things in the name of Christ or in most cases just used the name of Christ to gane a possition of power and then did did the evil having nothing to do with Christ( Hitler ) but as with those checks it is hardly fair to lay these evils at the feet of Christianity.   I would ask you to at least read the first four books of the new testament, I am quite sure if you are a reasonable person you will conclude that Christ tought NOTHING that would justify any evil actions.    compare this to Islam and the moslem expantion, if you go back to their founding you will find that Mohamed was violent and encouraged others to be violent.  If you could make this kind of conection to the teachings of Jesus then it might be fair to blame Christianity for the things you mention, you should consider that at the times of some of the events you mention , most people did not own their own Bibles, this left them to trust in their leaders for the truth.   you also dont seem to realise that there is 2000 years of Christian history 1600 of western domination by Christianity..  the universitys , hospitals and Christian charity is unsurpassed by any other group of people in the world.  A strong Christian work ethic(rapidly fading) has made western industry thrive, creating wealth that feeds many impoverished nations.    I hear the kind of retoric you offer from an athiest friend of mine. its ironic that an athiest would even try to use pain and suffering to atack Christianity,    try looking into the deathtoll of communism; Russia, China, Cambodia, Vietnam and others check out the stagering death toll of atheism, abject poverty and opresion are rampant. when you look at it in a resonable perspective. I think you would agree that the best thing for this world, Is more of what Jesus tought!

[nChrist]

Wrg,

I reduced the number of "%" on your post to keep from making the message window longer than a browser would handle without scrolling. I hope you don't mind.

Keanon is not a reasonable person at all, and he has been banned. He was a troll, Christian hunter, and the post you replied to was used to bait and hook Christians to have fun with them. He would then go back an report his exploits to a larger group of trolls, and they would all have a good laugh. I think that all of Keanon's group were banned, over 13 of them.

I really doubt that Keanon has a Christian thought other than blasphemy and cursing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Mark 8:36  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

[wrg]

thanks Tom, the %%% were there because Im new at this , and didnt Know how to separate what I quoted from what I wrote.  I have had posts that ran it all together . I think that was at fresh-hope. God Bless

[nChrist]

Wrg,

I understand. You'll get used to the forum pretty quickly. If you want a space between the quote and what you type, just hit the return key a couple of times after the quote and start typing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 73:26  My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

[ollie]

I know that this is kind of late in the game to be getting into this thread, but here goes.

It seems to me that most everyone here in opposition to the Iraqi war has forgotten that Saddam Hussein committed one of the largest genocides in human history.  He has brutally murdered millions of Kurds and of his fellow Iraqis.  This war was not fought for monetary gain or for political gain or anything of the sort.  You underestimate our president.  I challenge you to try and find some letters from soldiers that are in Iraq and read them, or listen to them (talk radio is a good place for this).  The men and women bravely serving this country are very optimistic and are told each day by Iraqi civilians that their efforts are greatly appreciated.  The media, of course, does not tell you these things because they want you to hate Bush.  I heard a letter from a soldier in Iraq where he talked about attending a church service at his military base in Baghdad and he was writing home to tell his family that "God is in this place."  amen.

You are so right, Wes. It was not monetary gain. We get less than 1% of our oil from Iraq. Hardly enough to even consider. It had nothing to do with political gain because wars are never "popular". Saddam Hussein was a real and serious threat to world peace and so were his sons. He refused to back down. At the time of the start of the war he was working towards getting nuclear capability through the French and other such countries.

"It was not monetary gain."
Have you checked on "Halliburton's" gains and the "taxpayer's" losses from their overcharges?

[ollie]

Since we are on the subject, why don't we call on Muslim Militants to stop killing Christian babies?

Call on everyone everywhere to stop all evil. We can begin with ourselves individually. It is the only kingdom we really rule over and influence. Evil culminates only in man and only man can stop it. Each man has to purify himself and stop only seeing it in the other man. Consider thyself.

[ollie]

Worry not for the evil in others, but make your sphere of conciousness without sin.

Ollie –
The depth of your prose did not go unnoticed.
Matthew 7:3
God Bless,
JN

Thanks.
ollie

[mattistheman]

War is ugly, no one denies that, however war can be nessesary.  God himself destroyed Sodom, Gemmorha (sp), the empire of Babylon, the first born sons of Egypt.  My point is that war can be rightouse is used to destroy a greater evil.

10 million innocents died because the west was afraid of war with Germany.  War is not always wrong.

Glory be to God

[Bronzesnake]

You seem to be good at making assumptions, so allow me to correct you.

1.) I am not an American, but rather a Canadian

2.) I linked you to a survey, and additionally a survey was conducted in Canada as to who Canadians would vote for, It was some 70% for Kerry.  I have also seen other worldwide polls, which I don't have links to at the moment, however they have all indicated that Kerry is supported overwhelmingly.  A poll was conducted in Britain (your ally) as to what percentage of people approve of America.  There was something like a 14% approval rating.  I realize that you either love or hate Bush, he is very popular in rural America, but keep in mind that the higher educated the census, the more popular John Kerry is.

3. The death toll is approximately 100'000, the Lancet is a respected non partisan academic journal.  The media is critisized for being liberal, however Fox News is owned by the cousin of GWB.

Going into iraq was a mistake, plain and simple.  Intelligence now reports that Iraq had no wmd's nor did they have any desire to attack america.  Remember Saddam is a sunni muslim, whereas Bin Laden, is a shi'ite.  Imagine the catholic vs protestant rivalry multiplied 10 fold, Osama, not only didn't care for Saddam, he outright hated him.  Remember Iraq is enemies with Iran, and Saddam thought that the United States would side with him.

Preemptive strike is a dangerous issue.  Even if Iraq had Al-Quaeda members in it, so do 60 other countries, including Canada.  Destabilizing the middle east, will only **** more people off and as a result create more terrorists.

 Hello my friend. I am also Canadian. These type of polls are not indicative of any substantial mass destain for America or Bush. I submit that a great majority of the responses come from people who have their own agenda, and or thoughts on war in general - people who actually support Bush and American foreign policy are not very likely to participate in such loaded polls, thus, the seemingly lob-sided results. I do not trust polls in general. Look at the polling results pre U.S. election and compare to the results...same thing with our own federal election in which polls strongly supported a conservative government, or at least strong gains by the conservatives...neither even came close to reality.

Also, no one knows for certain if there were or were not WMD's in Iraq pre-war, and there is substantial evidence which points to the fact that Russian special forces were in Iraq just prior to the start of the war, at weapon depots, and were seen, via satelite, leaving the country and entering Syria accompanied by a long convoy of military trucks. Now, there is no way to know for certain what was in the trucks, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it wasn't spongecake.

 John Lennon quote..."You say you want a revolution, well you know, don't you know that you can count me out...in"

Bronzesnake

[CrystalClear]

I'm new here so forgive me for bringing back such an old thread. That being said, I just read through all 8 pages and I have to say I am dismayed at what I read here.

First off I will also admit that I am not a Bush supporter but then again I am NOT a Kerry supporter. I voted for Reagan, Clinton and Gore. I refused to take part in the 2004 election based on the character of BOTH candidates.
Now that I have quelled any suspicion of my political agenda I will say that, I am against war in general and while I understand sometimes war is necessary I believe in this day and age it should be used as a last resort. Jesus released us from the covenant of the OT and ushered in the age of grace and peace. Love they enemy, turn the other cheek...

As I said war is sometimes necessary but only if it is a righteous cause. Bush took advantage of our patriotism at a time when we were vulnerable with fear. The administration forced information which was faulty or false in order to pursue some agenda. Before 9/11 this administration claimed that Saddam was no threat to anyone due to the sanctions and the destruction of it's military. This PROVED true as we rolled into Baghdad having faced almost no resistance along the way.

Is the world better off without Saddam in power? Sure, but we could say that about ALL of the leaders of the middle east and about 100 more elsewhere in the world. Some like IRAN and N. KOREA are 1000x more dangerous to the US than Saddam EVER was.
Would a democracy in the middle east be a good thing? Sure but no one with any intimate knowlege of the region thinks this will work out. Why? Because the mind of the middle east is not modern enough to understand the implications and freedoms of a democratic society.

Someone mentioned that this war is a mandate from God... Are you serious? Do you REALLY think God is directing George W. Bush in a holy war against Islam? George, who didn't "find Jesus" until he decided to move into politics where it was benificial?. Come on, Jesus doesn't want us to perpetrate another crusade, he wants us to spread the word and bring the unbelievers to him through love and grace.

I think you should take a good hard look at the POLICIES of the republican party instead of focusing on their position on gay marriage and abortion as this country is in pretty sad shape financially and socially.

Whew!  

[Bronzesnake]

Crystal.

 
 I think you have a rather dated and naive opinion of the world we live in today. We no longer fight wars on a military battlefield face to face. We are in a situation now where terrorists have the capability, manpower, resources and resolve to inflict terrible damage anywhere, anytime. These groups are small, spread out, and mix in with the general population. The fact that we have up until very recently only understood that our safety and security could only be threatened by a mass military machine, has caused many intelligent people to be blinded to the to the fact that these "small" groups can cause as much, and perhaps, more destruction than a highly visible advancing army, due to the ease of mobility and the element of tactical surprise they possess.

 The real and present threat that exists today, is the likelihood that rogue nations such as Iraq/N.Korea/Iran etc - with tactical nuclear weaponry and or technology will secretly supply our enemies with these weapons, and or technology.  

 How do you like the idea of having several secret operatives who are your next door neighbors - whose children play with your own children, in possession of suitcase nuclear bombs strategically spread out throughout the U.S.A. and allied nations, waiting for a signal to push the button?

 This is the reality that we find ourselves in today my friend, and perhaps - God willing - we will have enough time to come up with "cleaner" techniques to deal with these nations, but right now we have little choice but to seek out these dictatorial countries, take over, and attempt to establish some kind of a democracy. For the most part, the people of these dictatorships are prisoners in their own countries, and would love to have the same system of democracy as the West, however, they are scared to death to make the move on their own.

 I would love to live in the world you believe we are living in Crystal, and once Jesus returns it will finally be made right. Until that time we must fight our enemies, or die in our beds.

Bronzesnake

[CrystalClear]

I think you have a rather dated and naive opinion of the world we live in today.

Quite the contrary, I am actually well aware of our geo-political situation and have not been considered naive for a very long time. So we can start right off with you being wrong and continue from there.

We no longer fight wars on a military battlefield face to face.

Tell this to the service men and women on the streets in Iraq... it's VERY face to face.

We are in a situation now where terrorists have the capability, manpower, resources and resolve to inflict terrible damage anywhere, anytime. These groups are small, spread out, and mix in with the general population.

You are partially right here, what you confuse is the capability of terrorists in general and those insurgents and terrorists currently fighting in Iraq.

The fact that we have up until very recently only understood that our safety and security could only be threatened by a mass military machine, has caused many intelligent people to be blinded to the to the fact that these "small" groups can cause as much, and perhaps, more destruction than a highly visible advancing army, due to the ease of mobility and the element of tactical surprise they possess.
The real and present threat that exists today, is the likelihood that rogue nations such as Iraq/N.Korea/Iran etc - with tactical nuclear weaponry and or technology will secretly supply our enemies with these weapons, and or technology.  

 How do you like the idea of having several secret operatives who are your next door neighbors - whose children play with your own children, in possession of suitcase nuclear bombs strategically spread out throughout the U.S.A. and allied nations, waiting for a signal to push the button?

This is also a true statement. You are well on your way to intelligent thought; if only you can keep it up... we'll see...

 

This is the reality that we find ourselves in today my friend, and perhaps - God willing - we will have enough time to come up with "cleaner" techniques to deal with these nations, but right now we have little choice but to seek out these dictatorial countries, take over, and attempt to establish some kind of a democracy.

You jumped off a cliff and did a swan dive into ignorance, arrogance and moral depravity. Let me edify you a bit. First off, it is NOT our right to invade the sovereignty of another country unless we have been attacked by them. Afghanistan harbored and refused to hand over Osama after Al Qaeda attacked our country on 9/11. We had the right to go there and hunt him down. Did we have the right to overthrow the government there? This is still under debate but the majority believe so because of their refusal to cooperate with us and their support for Al Qaeda. Some argue that Al Qaeda is not the "army" of the Taliban and we have no right to displace the Afghanistan government just because some terrorists are hiding out in the mountains there. But this is a side issue, back to your statement.

"but right now we have little choice but to seek out these dictatorial countries, take over, and attempt to establish some kind of a democracy"

What makes you believe that we have the right to invade, overthrow and replace another country and it's government? Because they MIGHT supply our enemies with the weapons they need to attack us? MIGHT? are you kidding? This is a ridiculous premise and morally corrupt at the very least. What we should do is make our country more secure so that our enemies cannot easily attack us on our own soil. Then we work with the international community to pressure these "rogue" nations. Your rationale would be similar to your neighbor killing your family because your dog might bite him. If your dog is aggressive he can use law enforcement to pressure you. He can build a fence to keep your dog out. But he can NOT take pre-emptive action and kill your family as a means to protect himself.

Next, Iraq was not a threat to us and the Bush administration used our nationalism as a tool to satisfy his own agenda in Iraq. But for a moment let's use your logic. N.Korea and Iran are HUGE threats to the U.S. so why go after Iraq? If we really we taking pre-emptive action we should have invaded Iran. Saddam would have gotcha8ed his pants and done anything we commanded if we had done so. Iran has a population much more westernized and much more pro-democracy than Iraq. NO my friend, it's you that is naive. The invasion of Iraq was not pre-emptive nor justified nor righteous.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13281099,00.html

For the most part, the people of these dictatorships are prisoners in their own countries, and would love to have the same system of democracy as the West, however, they are scared to death to make the move on their own.

Not so much in Iraq, the common person in Iraq does not really even understand the concept of our democracy or they would be putting down these insurgents themselves and at least helping us more than they are. And if you think they will have a free and democratic society like ours anytime soon then you are not only naive but foolish. Their version of democracy will be so different than ours at first that you'd never even be able to compare the 2.

I would love to live in the world you believe we are living in Crystal, and once Jesus returns it will finally be made right. Until that time we must fight our enemies, or die in our beds.

Bronzesnake

Do we need to protect ourselves? Absolutely, but not by sending our children all over the world invading countries, they should be here protecting our borders with highly trained and highly organized strike forces going out and taking out threats around the world. Your version of the world just sends our kids off into situations like we have now in Iraq.

Peace

[Soldier4Christ]

CrystalClear,

You make a lot of statements as if it were a person that thinks they know these things firsthand. Have you experienced these things firsthand or are you going by the media or other second hand information?

[nChrist]

CrystalClear,

I will simply say that I give thanks that the majority of Americans disagree with you completely. I also give thanks that the vast majority of our Armed Forces disagree with you completely.

Needless to say, I disagree with you completely and feel that your thoughts on this issue are extremely naive. A stick your head in the sand and wait until someone comes to get you philosophy is why we had 9-11. A like analogy would be waiting for your child to commit murder before you decide to discipline them.

We can agree to disagree, and that's fine. You just gave me something else to give thanks for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 100:3  Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.