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Author Topic: If Jesus is God in the Flesh?  (Read 2969 times)
Bawilli
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« on: October 03, 2004, 01:37:26 AM »

  How come Jesus prayed to God and asked him to take this cup from him(That he would'nt have to die on the cross is my understanding)?  I am really trying to understand all this but it is very confusion to me.  I need all the help I can get!
  Thanks again
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felix102
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2004, 03:23:06 AM »

Hi.

Jesus was no different from any other man. He was fully God and fully man at the same time. He suffered everything a man suffers. As He was praying to God, Jesus knew what was going to happen, but without a doubt he was suffering from great anxiety. Are we not all troubled by anxiety? We are faced with the same situation whenever we may have an upcoming test and we have absolutely no idea about anything on that test the day before we take it; whenever we have to pay the bill in a week and you're still unemployed;  or maybe if you stand up against christian persecutors and know that if you do not deny Jesus you will suffer death. Whenever we know that the future will hold great distress for us, we suffer a great deal of anxiety anticipating its coming. It is during this time where we go to God in prayer fervently.

Jesus suffers exactly like we do. Jesus knew that the coming time was going to be very hard for him. He knew he must do his father will but it was going to be very tough. One thing to note is how Jesus repeated to do the will of his father:

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

To fully understand why Jesus would pray this...put yourself in Jesus's place:
You know what would happen to you...without sleep throughout the night your body would be very irratible. Later that night, as you were taken away to be crucified, when you needed support the most your best friend betrays you by pretending he never even knew you. Then you're blindfolded and dressed into a purple robe by guards. They twist together a crown of thorns on your head. They start to beat you and ask you, "Prophesy! Who hit you?" All the while you knew that you were the greatest prophet that ever lived. Your taken before authority. You stay silent, you do not try to prove your innocence. The shouts from the crowd "Crucify!" bring forth the imminence of your death. Nails are hammer through your wrists and feet onto a cross. As you hang without clothes in front of all your oppressors, they believe they have conquered you. They hurl insults at you while all the time you still have the power to save yourself. As you hang there, your joints are out of place, you're body is dehydrated, you heart starts to beat out of place.

We see Jesus as a man when he prays to God about taking away this cup; we see Jesus as God when He follows the will of God to the suffering and pain of the cross. Jesus can emphathize on our sufferings. He has suffered the world. Sometimes we will have anxieties over things; sometimes we will think that God has forsaken us. Jesus knows what we have gone through, He has been through teh same things.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 03:23:51 AM by felix102 » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2004, 05:17:28 AM »

God is not limited to the frame of man but transcends man and the limitations of man. From the begining of the Bible, starting in Genesis, God refers to Himself as plural - more than just one in person, but one God.

Genesis 1:26 ∂  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Ge 11:7  Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one anotherís speech.

If God had use for more than three, He could be so, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are what He has revealed to us and they are for our benefit, as it was the Father that resurrected the Son and the Son that gave us the Holy Spirit.
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Hosea 11:10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2004, 01:10:01 AM »

To add to raphu's post....

Quote
Now the earth was formless and empty , darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Gen 1:2

God the son, God the father, and God the holy spirit were there before the universe began.
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2004, 05:23:02 AM »

 How come Jesus prayed to God and asked him to take this cup from him(That he would'nt have to die on the cross is my understanding)?  I am really trying to understand all this but it is very confusion to me.  I need all the help I can get!
  Thanks again

Hi Bawalli.

I think the easiest way to explain it is this.   Jesus, was the expression of everything that God wanted to say to man.    Jesus is the most unique individual in the universe.   Fully God, yet fully man.   His short time here on earth was to show and teach us how to live our lives in accordance to Gods will for us, (This is why He prayed) and redeem man back to God spiritually.

Next point.  If Jesus was not also fully God, then his crucifixion was in vain for us.   Jesus had to be perfect, in order for his sacrifice to meet Gods Holiness and righteousness.   For Him to be perfect, meant He had to be God.   Thus the virgin birth (not of man), yet born of flesh.   He had to be both man/God in order to redeem fallen man to a perfect Holy, righteous God.

A few short verses that show the plurality/trinity, and divinity of God.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.
(LITV)

Sorta confusing eh?   Its a difficult concept for us to wrap our minds around.

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness [.......]

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Again, sorta confusing, but its clear that Jesus is speaking of His divine nature as being the Father, and also having the Father In Him.   Think about it long enough and you will get an annurism I promise....lol

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus was, and still is God!   He embodies the fulness of the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Hope this helps.

Grace and Peace!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2004, 05:39:23 AM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2004, 05:40:26 AM »

 How come Jesus prayed to God and asked him to take this cup from him(That he would'nt have to die on the cross is my understanding)?  I am really trying to understand all this but it is very confusion to me.  I need all the help I can get!
  Thanks again

Hi Bawalli.

I think the easiest way to explain it is this.   Jesus, was the expression of everything that God wanted to say to man.    Jesus is the most unique individual in the universe.   Fully God, yet fully man.   His short time here on earth was to show and teach us how to live our lives in accordance to Gods will for us, (This is why He prayed) and redeem man back to God spiritually.

Next point.  If Jesus was not also fully God, then his crucifixion was in vain for us.   Jesus had to be perfect, in order for his sacrifice to meet Gods Holiness and righteousness.   For Him to be perfect, meant He had to be God.   Thus the virgin birth (not of man), yet born of flesh.   He had to be both man/God in order to redeem fallen man to a perfect Holy, righteous God.

A few short verses that show the plurality, and divinity of God.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning [/i]with God.
(LITV)

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in [/i]our[/i] image, after our likeness [.......]

Joh 1:14  And the Word [i/]was made flesh[/i], and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


Jesus was, and still is God!

Hope this helps.

Grace and Peace!

Good teaching, you get "TWO"Thumbs UP






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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2004, 05:43:12 AM »

Oops, I added some stuff since the thumbs up, better review it.   Grin

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2004, 02:11:25 PM »

Praise God, hes not in the flesh anymore Cool

Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev1:14  His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Rev 1:18  I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


God Bless
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2004, 07:55:50 PM »

felix 102 wrote:

Jesus can emphathize on our sufferings. He has suffered the world. Sometimes we will have anxieties over things; sometimes we will think that God has forsaken us. Jesus knows what we have gone through, He has been through teh same things.

Nana:  It is true that Jesus was *tempted* on all accounts as we are.  It is also true that to be called a follower of Jesus we must suffer as He did.  

However; I do not believe that Jesus experienced anxiety or fear in what He was to face.

Jesus is God.  God made flesh - therefore He was not anxious.  To be anxious is to sin.  We are anxious because we do not know what to expect.  Jesus was fully aware of what He was to face.  An angel came in the garden to minister to Him - to give Him strength to physically endure.  

The prayer of Jesus in the Garden - let this cup pass if it be Your will - was not about the physical suffering.  Jesus was to be made sin for us.  He was to be forsaken by His Father.  He carried the weight of all the sin that ever was, is, and will be, to the cross.  This is the cup that He knew He faced - not in fear, but in complete and perfect knowledge of what He was to endure - the rejection of God for that brief time when He was made sin.

Here are some scripts to consider:

John 10:17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Matt 6:34 Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow; for tomorrow shall be anxious for its own things. Sufficient to the day is the evil of it.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33 I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.

2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


Shalom, Nana





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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2004, 03:07:48 AM »

Sister Nana,

I would have to disagree. Jesus did suffer from anxiety.

Consider the verses in Luke 22:42-44
Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

Being in anguish, prayed more earnestly, his sweat was like drops of blood. What are these signs of? Anxiety? Take a close look. This is anxiety. Jesus said, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." Why would Jesus say take this cup from me...yet not my will but yours be done? He knows what's going to happen and He knows the great deal of suffering He must bear. Having anxiety has nothing to do with sin nor does being anxious means we are sinning.

You say:
Quote
Jesus is God.  God made flesh - therefore He was not anxious.  To be anxious is to sin.  We are anxious because we do not know what to expect.  Jesus was fully aware of what He was to face.

The definition of anxiety is: painful or apprehensive uneasiness of mind usually over an impending or anticipated ill.  You are implying that anxiety is a sin. That is wrong. But I believe what you are thinking is that we have anxiety because we sin. Because we sin there is suffering. And because of this suffering we know what we will face, thus we suffer from anxiety. Revise you conception: JESUS SUFFERED FOR SINS THAT HE DID NOT COMMIT. Here is an illustration. Jesus was beaten by guards. To be beaten you would have had to done something wrong (sin) to have been beaten in the first place. I know with anxiety you are thinking...we are suffering from anxiety because we have sinned in teh first place, thus anxiety is sin. The reason is simple and we all know it. Jesus TOOK the punishment that belonged to all of us. Jesus did not sin. Jesus did suffer from anxiety but He never sinned and never deserved to suffer from anxiety. Jesus did suffer from physical beatings but He never sinned and never deserved to suffer from physical pain. Jesus did suffer from spiritual pain (when He asked why God would forsake him) but He never sinned and never deserved to feel forsaken from God.

Jesus was already suffering for us while he prayed at the Mount of Olives. His suffering was not only physical on the cross, also mental and spiritual. Do we not suffer all from physical, mental and spiritual pains? Then Jesus must have suffered in those ways that are unimaginable. He suffered for ALL sins for all the people that have existed in the beginning of time to the end of time.

Yes, Jesus was God but we cannot equate that to some super human who felt no pain. If Jesus did not suffer then how can that be a genuine sacrifice?

For the verses you pointed out, they are taken into account in the wrong context.
Quote
John 10:17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.

This talks about Jesus's ability to allow himself to die and then rise again. Does not talk about the pain He would suffer. Jesus said, "No one takes it(life) from Me, but I lay it down from Myself" This means that Jesus had the power while he was being beaten, crucified, etc. that He had the power to stop it all! The people thought "Ha, WE killed Jesus" when in fact, it was Jesus who allowed it to happen. Through all that mocking "If you're the son of God why don't you save yourself?," Jesus never ever proved them wrong by taking himself off the cross and escaping death.

Quote
Matt 6:34 Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow; for tomorrow shall be anxious for its own things. Sufficient to the day is the evil of it.

I dont know which bible version you use but mine says: Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Disregarding the semantics, Jesus is not talking about "impeding or anticipating ill" Jesus talks about the anxiety we have over whether we will have clothes or food. Jesus is saying, "God will take care of you because look at the birds they get food; look at the lilies, they're beautiful. Then if we are so much more valuable in God's eye how much more will he take care of us and meet our needs. Being anxious for some tribulation you must face is different. (For instance if you are to be sentenced to death for being a christian.)

Quote
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

This is what Jesus would give us. Jesus did not have the luxury or benefit of having another "Jesus" before Him who could provide that peace. No, Jesus had to face a tribulation that no one else could possibly do let alone be worthy enough (without sin).

Quote
2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Notice that the book was written after Jesus crucifixation. And notice that after Jesus's death did He give us the Holy Spirit. It was Jesus who gave us that spirit, not a spirit of fear but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Quote
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This is from the NIV:

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

This fear refers to us. When we feel afraid because we have sinned and are awaiting punishment from God. This is exactly what anxiety is. It then says, "The one who fears is not made perfect in love." This verse may be the core of your post as to why Jesus did not suffer from anxiety and that anxiety would be sin. Again, this is out of context and does not apply to Jesus's sufferings. Look closely at "Fear has to do with punishment." As pointed out earlier, Jesus did not have to fear punishment for sinning because Jesus never sinned! The anxiety He felt did not stem from his own sin but because He was going to do God's will (Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.) and suffer the world's sin.


Jesus did suffer from anxiety while he prayed at the Mount of Olives. His sweats were drops of blood, He prayed more earnestly, He was in anguish. For us, we suffer from anxiety for a lot of reasons. (1) We forget Jesus's teachings that God will always provide for our needs so we worry about whether we have enough money or whether we can make it through tomorrow. (2) We sinned and we are awaiting the consequences of our actions (we should remember that 'perfect love drives out fear'). (3) We know that there will be hardships in the future. (4) This is like the 3rd one but the difference is we suffer hardships for the sake of God. We know that there will be hardships ahead of us that we must face because we are servants of God.

This is the anxiety Jesus suffered
(5) I will face tribulations and death on the cross, I will take the punishment for all the sins of this world because I love my Father and I will do His will.


« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 04:20:03 AM by felix102 » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2004, 06:21:44 AM »

Quote
Jesus did suffer from anxiety while he prayed at the Mount of Olives. His sweats were drops of blood, He prayed more earnestly, He was in anguish.

Amen Felix!   I think perhaps, (just pondering here) Jesus was beginning to experience something He had never felt before this time in the garden.   The sins of the world pressing in on him, the guilt, heaviness, hopelessness.   Imagine a holy, pure, almighty God in human flesh experiencing the ill effects of sin he never commited.   I'm sure he knew what was coming, but I think a greater part of his anguish was carrying the load and burden of all mens sins.

Thank you Lord for being willing to carry mine!  I owe you so much more than I could ever pay back!

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2004, 10:17:01 AM »

Next point.  If Jesus was not also fully God, then his crucifixion was in vain for us.   Jesus had to be perfect, in order for his sacrifice to meet Gods Holiness and righteousness.   For Him to be perfect, meant He had to be God.   Thus the virgin birth (not of man), yet born of flesh.   He had to be both man/God in order to redeem fallen man to a perfect Holy, righteous God.

Timothy,
One of the best explanations I've ever heard!  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2004, 01:31:21 PM »

So you are saying that God is anxious and fearful . . .
alrighty then . . .
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2004, 01:39:57 PM »

So you are saying that God is anxious and fearful . . .
alrighty then . . .

If I understood correctly, it was that the "human" part of Jesus was anxious and fearful.  In human form, he felt the same pain and suffering a human would...which makes his message all the more powerful to me.

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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2004, 02:54:58 PM »

Jesus was human in flesh only.  He was still God on earth - fully God, fully man.  He had the mind of God.  He was the Spirit/God in human form.  This is why He could do the miracles and the teachings and read the hearts of all men, and know exactly all that would happen, not only to Himself, but to all others.

He was the Word made flesh, but He was still the Word - that never stopped existing in Him.

quote: "The definition of anxiety is: painful or apprehensive uneasiness of mind usually over an impending or anticipated ill."

Jesus did not have uneasiness of mind - His is God - He knew exactly what was going to happen to Him.  He went with joy.

He was *tempted* on all accounts as we are.  There is no scripture that says He suffered the same mindset that we do.  Anxiety and fear are do to the fall.  They are not part of the King of Kings.  There is no scripture that says Jesus feared or was anxious about what He was to face.  He embraced it willingly.

Again, the anguish/agony in the garden was to take the sin of all man kind on Himself.  He was to be forsaken by His Father.  He was made sin for us.  This was the anguish/agony - becoming human, bearing the sin, being the pure and spotless Sacrificial Lamb.

Matt 26:37 And taking along Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, He began to grieve and to be deeply troubled.
38 Then He said to them, My soul is deeply grieved, even unto death. Stay here and watch with Me.
39 And going forward a little, He fell on His face, praying, and saying, My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.

Mark 14:34 And He said to them, My soul is deeply grieved, unto death. Remain here and watch.

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony, He prayed more intently. And His sweat became as drops of blood falling down onto the earth.

Shalom, Nana




« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 02:59:30 PM by MalkyEL » Logged

Be mindful of the prisoners, as having been bound with them; of those ill-treated, as also being in the body yourselves.  Hebrews 13:3
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