As an intelligent human I have difficulty with the idea of blind faith without contemplation, questioning and testing that faith. I have faith that my wife with not cheat on me, not simply because she is my wife but because I know her, because I've discussed that issue with her. Am I 100% sure? No. Do I occassionally check up on her or ask a question or 2? Of course.
I have faith that my dog won't bite me. Yes. Am I 100% sure? No. Do I take measures to ensure he doesn't? Yes.
Do I have faith that my Parents love me? Yes. Am I 100% sure? No. Do I need to hear them say it directly to me? Yes.
Do I care that you (anyone) have blind faith? Do I care whether or not you believe the Bible is the unerrant word of God and that it's existance proves the existance of God? NO
Ahhhh, am I mistaken or did I not say anything about blind faith? Aside from that, exactly what is "blind" faith? Is it stupidly believing in something that does not exist? Is it stepping in front of a speeding locomotive, or tuggin' on Superman's cape...or is it just spitting into the wind?
I'm not here to try and change your mind,
Couldn't tell it by me. You present yourself as an "intelligent" human being, then proceed to make unintelligent remarks, faulty argumentation, and when shown the error of your statements proceed to red herrings and strawmen and ignore your egregious mistakes. Doesn't sound to intelligent to me, nor does it speak well to your ability to reasonably and objectively assess your own faults.
I'm here to see if you (anyone) can change mine.
Why? It also doesn't appear that you have any intention of objectively or reasonably assessing what is presented, having already made up your own "superior" mind.
"professing themselves wise, they became fools....worshipping the created more than the creator"
"...think not more highly of yourselves than you ought..."
"God is not a man, that He should lie..."
"my ways are not your ways, nor my thoughts your thoughts, saith the Lord.."
I'm here to dispute your reasoning and facts (if there are any) to see if you can convince me that there is a God that cares for me and that there is an after life.
Then dispute the reasoning and fact. Some were presented to you, but you have chosen to ignore them.
I WANT to believe these things but if at the end of the day your last ditch effort is "just have faith" then I must say I can not.
At some point in time, you must exercise faith...whether in God, or in yourself, it does and will occur. At this particular point in time, you are expressing faith in your self, your ability to reason, and your ability to gather facts and objectively assess them. As has been pointed out, your fact gathering ability is somewhat remiss, which tends to cast a pall of doubt on your reasoning.
I can not because you are a man just like me and by your own admission, through your religious belief, you are a sinner and tempted by evil. I can not because you are a man just like billions of other men throughout the ages who have lied, cheated, decieved, stolen, murdered et. al. for their own selfish desires and lust.
I can not because you are a man and I have no way of knowing what is in your heart.
Have I asked you to follow me? Apply reason to your own answer. If I am a man, just like you, and you can't believe me, then how can you believe yourself? Quid pro quo.
Now I realize that the following is the part that really tickled BEP's "gotcha clock", but I need to re-nsert it here to show the utter foolishness of your argument.
Just imagine for a moment what it would mean to you if God came to you, spoke directly to you and said "the Bible is the creation of Satan to fool you into doing his bidding, I had hoped you would be able to figure it out on your own with the intelect I gave you but you chose not to question it's flaws". wouldn't you just weep uncontrolably for your foolishness?
Just imagine for a moment what it would mean to you if God came to you, spoke directly to you and said
"the Bible is my Word, and contains all the information you need to be reconciled to me. I had hoped you would be able to figure it out on your own with the intellect I gave you, but you have chosen to rely instead upon your own understanding.". Wouldn't you just weep uncontrollably at the judgment seat?
Just FYI, God has come to you, God has spoken to you, and God does desire you to reason. "come, let us reason together, saith the Lord.....though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow....". Even now, His Holy Spirit is contending with you over the matter. "howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He shall convince (convict) the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come..."
Anyway, determining whether the Bible is or is not truthful or the Word of God is a fools errand because the believers will dispute and defend its descrepencies and inacuracies with their last breath. Thousands (maybe millions) have debated it all before us.
I've listened to both sides and have made my own determination on the Bible, here it is.
And this statement gives lie to your earlier contention that you were here to be convinced. Closed minds don't grow...they stagnate.
The Bible can not be considered proof of the existance of God because it is a collection of letters, dubious stories, mostly passed around for hundreds of years by word of mouth and translated works by men with the goal of perpetuating a set of beliefs.
IMO, the Bible does not claim to be "proof" of the existence of God, but it does claim to be inspired by Him.
"all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for..."
"knowing this, that no prophecy is of private interpretation, but is God-breathed (inspired, spoken, theopneustos)..."
Man is not perfect and is motivated to further his own selfish goals.
I hope you're including yourself here. And what is your selfish goal? And why are you holding yourself out to be perfect(ly) capable of determining truth better than God?
Throughout history we have seen men with a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other. Not to defend his God or his faith with either but to use the Bible as an excuse to gain power and wealth and the sword to acheive it. How can I have faith in a message when that very message has been so abused and used as a bludgeon by those claiming to be it's most righteous defenders? The Roman Catholic Chruch is THE most wealthy, powerful and influential organization in the world. Is that the message I'm supposed to get, 'Wield the Bible properly and you too can become rich and powerful'?
So? Guilt by association? Bad logic, even worse argumentation, and evidence of inherently fallacious reasoning abilities. Besides, you need to pay attention to the message, not the messenger. I suppose that if you were to play a Paul Desmond rif badly I should then fault Paul Desmond?
Since there has been enough debate on the Bible and enough evidence to cause me to doubt it's validity as the Word of God I'd like to start another thread on other questions I have about "God".
Since you haven't really debated, and most especially haven't produced any "evidence", I see this as nothing more than an attempt to escape.
I would suggest that each of you use your mind and ponder your own beliefs to be sure that you are true to yourself and your God.
Good advice...but backwards. Be sure that you are true to God, then to yourself.
I suggest that you venture out into the world and discover other points of view rather than only talking with other Christians, "preaching to the chior" doesn't make you think outside the box.
How do you know that we haven't been "out in the world", and examined/discovered other points of view?
I saw in a reply by the moderator "Blackeyedpeas" that people that don't quickly start agreeing with the his point of view with be banned. Is that what God teaches? You should look at them as an opportunity to enlighten them. You should only ban them if they are simply trying to cause trouble or being inflammatory, vulgar or harassing people not because their opinion or beliefs are different from yours. "Man cannot live on bread alone".
Agreement? Not necessary. Arrogance and hostility? Not allowed. Sincere questions are welcomed. Snotty remarks are not.
I look forward to more discussions
I'm looking forward to the first one.
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