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Jesusismyhomeboy3
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« on: September 08, 2004, 10:55:51 PM »

I was in a conversation with one of my friends who is an atheist. We started talking and i stumped him on many questions. He stumped me on one question and I was wondering if anyone would be able to explain to me how would you anwser the following question.
He asked me...
   How do you know the Bible is God's word?

IF any of you know how I could answer that question it would be much appreciated thanks =)
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2004, 01:08:23 AM »

The Bible is the bestseller of all time.
It is the book most read and studied, and it is the most controversial book on the earth today. Some say that it is the Word of God, while others question the validity of that claim. There are many reasons for us to believe that it is the Word of God. We would like to present a few of the key reasons here and invite you to read with an open mind and make your own conclusion.

Four Criteria for Identifying the Word of God
God created man and wanted to communicate with man, it is reasonable that He would do so through a book, something unchangeable and understandable to man. Such a book would have to meet a few requirements. It would have to identify God as its source; its standard of morality would have to match God's standard of morality, which would have to exceed the highest moral standards of mankind; it would have to reveal God and His purpose for creating mankind; and it would have to be widely available. Our first reason for believing that the Bible is the Word of God is that it satisfies all the above criteria.

Three Books Claim Divine Authorship
There are only three major books that claim divine authorship - the Bible, the Koran, and the book of Mormon. All other books can be eliminated from consideration immediately.

The Bible Has the Highest Moral Tone
The moral tone of the Bible is clearly higher than that of the other two, matching God's love and righteousness. Both the Koran and the Book of Mormon allow polygamy. Only the Bible promotes the idea of one husband to one wife. Not only does the Bible condemn divorce, but it even condemns lusting after another in the heart as adultery. In addition, only the Bible teaches that hating others in the heart is like committing murder (because murder comes out of a heart full of hatred). It teaches not only to not hate one's enemies, but also to love them. Only the Bible portrays the highest standard of love, a love completely free of all self-interest, jealousy, and pride. A society that truly follows the Bible is guaranteed to have love, oneness, peace, and rest.

The Bible Reveals God and His Purpose with Man
The Bible reveals God, who He is, what He intends to do, the origin of man, and God's purpose in creating man. Neither the Koran nor the Book of Mormon indicate a clear purpose for man; in these books the relationship between God and man is merely that of Creator and creature, of Judge and defendant, with the "good" ones being rewarded in the hereafter. The Bible, however, reveals that God created man as a vessel to contain Him as life so that man may express Him in His divine attributes and represent Him to rule over the earth. Thus, it reveals not only God's creation of man but also God's desire to live in man so that man may live in Him, resulting in an absolute oneness of God with man. No other book reveals God and His purpose with man.

The Bible Is the Most Available Book
Finally, the Bible is the book most available to man. All or portions have been translated into approximately two thousand languages. In 1989, 600 million copies were sent out to a world population of 5.5 billion. The Bible has virtually saturated the world. This is because it is the book of God's communication to man. People all over the world now have an opportunity to read it and to know God.

Fulfilled Prophecies Prove the Bible
Our second reason for believing that the Bible is the Word of God is that so far all of its prophecies have been fulfilled. Teachings, reasonings, ethics, and the like are subjective and can be easily written by anybody. However, if any book contains hundreds of predictions of events far in the future whose outcomes were not obviously determinable at the time they were recorded, and if not one of them fails, that book must be the Word of God.

The Bible contains prophecies written from 4000 BC to 700 BC concerning Jesus Christ's person, birth, living, death, resurrection, and second coming in glory. Except for His second coming, all of them were fulfilled 2,000 years ago, (109 prophecies for Jesus to fulfill, he fulfilled all of them.)

All of the Bible's prophecies concerning Israel's past and present have been fulfilled. Such prophecies include the possession of the good land (Palestine), the building of the temple, the falling away, the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, the captivity in Babylon, the rebuilding of the temple and Jerusalem, the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem again (AD 70), the restoration of the nation (1948), and the return of Jerusalem (1967). Only the prophecies concerning the end of this age remain to be fulfilled.

There are not enough pages here to enumerate all the prophecies in the Bible which have been fulfilled. These fulfilled prophecies should prove to anyone, including you, that the Bible has to be the Word of God, for it is impossible for man to predict the future with such infallibility.

Consistency Proves the Bible
The third reason for believing that the Bible is the genuine Word of God is its consistency. The various books which comprise the Bible were written in a few different languages, by approximately forty writers with different backgrounds, over a period of sixteen hundred years. Yet it has a common theme, an introduction, a development, and a conclusion. Although the Bible was written by so many men, all of them were led by the Spirit of the one God.

The Power of the Bible
The power of the Bible to change people's lives, thoughts, directions, and behavior testifies to the validity of the Bible as the Word of God. The fact that many people have loved the Bible enough to die for it also testifies to its validity. Talking to a Christian who truly believes the Bible is unlike talking to anyone else - that person has actually experienced God.

You Must Prove It to Yourself
All of the above reasons may be convincing, but there is only one way to prove to yourself that the Bible is the Word of God. That is to do what it says and see if you get the promised results. One verse says, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Rom. 10:13. If you say, "Lord Jesus, I call on Your name. Save me from the bondage of sins. Save me from my inability to be good and proper. Save me from my daily anxieties, fears, and frustrations. Lord Jesus, save me," you will experience His salvation. Another verse says, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" Matt. 5:8. You can test this verse by saying, "Lord Jesus, purify my heart that I may see God." If you pray with an open heart according to the words of the Bible, you will be saved and see God in your spirit through Jesus Christ. Then you will know that the Bible is God's Word to you.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 01:17:34 AM by DreamWeaver » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2004, 01:12:42 AM »

Bible Verses for Your Reading:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
2 Peter 1:21 For no prophecy was ever borne by the will of man, but men spoke from God while being borne by the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 1:1 God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Matthew 5:32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries her who has been divorced commits adultery.
Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment.
Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion... over all the earth.
Ephesians 3:9-11 And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things, In order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifarious wisdom of God might be made known through the church, According to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us.
John 10:10 I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly.
John 15:4 Abide in Me and I in you.
Galatians 2:20 It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
John 14:20,23 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. ...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.
Romans 6:11 So also you, reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but living to God in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.
John 6:57 As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me.

Prophecies for Further References:
Isaiah 7:14; 53:3; 9:1-2, 6; Micah 5:2; Daniel 9:25-26; Isaiah 53:12; Psalms 16:10; Malachi 4:5; Genesis 13:14-15, 17; 2 Samuel 7:12-13; 1 Kings 8:19; 9:6-9; Jeremiah 5:15-18; Matthew 24:2, 32; Daniel 9:27; 12:11.

There are many more but, I am tired tonight and my fingers hurt. Cry
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Jesusismyhomeboy3
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2004, 01:48:38 AM »

thank you both you were very helpful Smiley


GOD BLESS
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2004, 04:13:35 PM »

Hi, I've been pondering the subject of religion for most of my life.
I was baptized a "Baptist" as a baby. My mother divorced her first husband due to physical abuse before my first birthday. She then married a Catholic when I was 4. I went to a Catholic school until I was 12 (I was even an alter-boy). We moved to a small town and I went to a public school from age 13 on. I now (and have since high school) consider myself "Agnostic". Now, at age 39 I find myself exploring my beliefs again and have come here to have some questions answered.
This thread is interesting to me due to the claims made by DreamWeaver. I do not wish to seem inflamatory and I am not an athiest, I am simply in search and questioning...

1) Being the "best seller" of all time doesn't make it factual so we throw that away as rhetoric. One of the worst reasons it is the "Best Seller" is because it has been forced on people through fear and intimidation for the last 1600 and some odd years. The second biggest reason being that over all it promotes a way of life that (at least in the NT) is peaceful and loving and promises to reward the faithful with eternal life in paradise with God upon their death. The Bible is not the only religious text to promise good things for it's followers and very bad things for the "un-believers". Today we have a greater understanding of humanity and less fear of death which is a major reason that less and less of the industrialized and less superstitious societies are questioning the validity of the Bible.
There is a reason why the bible is so controversial, the biggest one being that, when confronted with it's many discrepencies, Christianity itself can not, as of yet, come to a concensus on whether the Bible is the literal word of God or the retelling of events from a human perspective.

Since the first canonized version was commissioned by the Roman Emperor Constantine in the 4th century AD up until  approximately the last 100 years ago, Christianity has steadfastly claimed the Bible to be the absolute, unerrant word of God. However, since the Western world has made huge advances in the sciences (geology, geneology, archeology, and every other "ology") the discrepencies in the Bible have caused Christianity to question it's true source and meaning.

2) "God created man and wanted to communicate with man, it is reasonable that He would do so through a book, something unchangeable and understandable to man."
A) According to the Bible itself, God has and can communicate directly to man so why would God direct man (a Roman Emporer no less) to have a book of select stories assembled 400 years after the death of Christ?
B) Actually the Bible HAS changed a great deal since the first canonized version and today there are many versions available including the NIV created in 1978.
C) Man identifies God as the source and we already know that man is falable and susceptable to temptation as well as motivation by his own goals, greed etc.
D) I think anyone can see just by reading the Bible that there is change in morality between the NT and the OT and the fact that most Christians do not adhere strictly to the morality, teachings or commands of God.

"The Bible contains prophecies written from 4000 BC to 700 BC concerning Jesus Christ's"
Of course you really can't credit as prophecy things that happened before the writing. It's like me writing today that George W Bush will be elected President in 2000.
Which only leaves about 2 predictions that would qualify."the restoration of the nation (1948), and the return of Jerusalem (1967)" and those are actually "predictions" by Jews for Jews.

The power of the bible is not in the text but in the preaching of the text.

Your 4 criteria do not withstand a cursory scrutiny.

I welcome your comments!

-SS
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2004, 04:51:43 PM »

There were a few things that jumped out at me in your post.

Quote
B) Actually the Bible HAS changed a great deal since the first canonized version and today there are many versions available including the NIV created in 1978.

Actually, more manuscripts have been found which back up the accuracy of scripture than any other piece of litterature in history.   By these early manuscripts we can say The Bible is amazingly accurate today as it was in the time its letters were written.   I would suggest by this, that God is quite able to protect his word even though men have tried to discredit and destroy it many many times in history.


Quote
Of course you really can't credit as prophecy things that happened before the writing. It's like me writing today that George W Bush will be elected President in 2000.

Its a fair site different from this!   You already know the coin is two sided and in fact know the coin will be flipped, so its a 50/50 chance.    The details of Christs crucifixion alone from OT passages are astounding and accurate to the letter.   Did you know that when Psalms and Isa were written that Crucifixion's had not even been invented at that time?   I heard the scientific odds of roughly 200 or so of these coming to pass as they did.   The number was something like  two hundred trigontillion to 1.   Thats pretty large odds wouldn't you say?   Make some predictions about details of who will win the election in 2020 (provided we are still here) and what his agenda will be, what he say, what He will see and how he react to situations yet to happen?   changes it a bit doesn't it?

I think the best way to define that the Bible is Gods word, is to explain how its truths are able to change our lives.  Each believer has a testimony that bears witness to the truth of its life changing power.  We are in effect a testiment to the truth of His eternal word.  Share that with others!

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2004, 05:00:39 PM »

I was in a conversation with one of my friends who is an atheist. We started talking and i stumped him on many questions. He stumped me on one question and I was wondering if anyone would be able to explain to me how would you anwser the following question.
He asked me...
   How do you know the Bible is God's word?

IF any of you know how I could answer that question it would be much appreciated thanks =)

One word.  FAITH.  He says it is.  I believe Him.

 Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2004, 05:50:47 PM »

Allinall, since you readily believe in God and all that goes along with it then you would agree that he gave man the most powerful brain of any creature. The power to question, the power to reflect, the power to ponder, do you really believe he wants you to simply accept, with no thought what could possibly be merely the writings of other men in an age when the earth was still flat and the sun revolved around it?

2nd Timothy, Actually that is untrue since no new documents predating the time of the first bible have been found since the Dead Sea Scrolls and not all of them are in support of the bible; I believe those were discovered in the 1800s. Again since then advances in the sciences and technology raise doubts on many issues with the Bible.

As far as I am aware (and I don't claim to be an authority only a humble musician) there are no original documents used in the Bible that predate the birth of Christ which means, all predictions in the Bible (including the OT) were written AFTER his death. You present Psalms and Isa as proof but you know as well as I that those documents do not exist anywhere except the bible. Which again means they were at the very least included from Jewish texts AFTER the Crucifiction.

Many books have changed peoples lives from diet and self reflection to empowerment books but we don't lend them the same mystical powers.

Good debate so far though.

-SS
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2004, 08:15:41 PM »

Another thought came to me as well.

2nd Timothy said "God created man and wanted to communicate with man, it is reasonable that He would do so through a book, something unchangeable and understandable to man."

Umm, seems a bit odd to me that God would use a "book" to communicate with man despite the FACT that replicating a written text was EXTREMELY labor intensive and costly until the advent of the printing press. So only the VERY wealthy could afford a copy and 99% of the earths population couldn't even read until the 1800s. It might suprise you to know that in 1995 the estimated world population was 5.75 billion and Illiteracy was just over the 1 billion mark.

Seems like an omnipotent and omnipresent God could come up with a better way to "speak" to humanity, like speaking to each of us directly.

That way we could go about our daily lives with complete free will and and utter joy in knowing our creator cared for each and every one of us enough to tell us so... like the way you should tell your loved one that you love them instead of just assuming they know.

-SS
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2004, 10:24:36 AM »

Quote
Allinall, since you readily believe in God and all that goes along with it then you would agree that he gave man the most powerful brain of any creature. The power to question, the power to reflect, the power to ponder, do you really believe he wants you to simply accept, with no thought what could possibly be merely the writings of other men in an age when the earth was still flat and the sun revolved around it?

"without faith, it is impossible to please God."
"faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Quote
2nd Timothy, Actually that is untrue since no new documents predating the time of the first bible have been found since the Dead Sea Scrolls and not all of them are in support of the bible; I believe those were discovered in the 1800s. Again since then advances in the sciences and technology raise doubts on many issues with the Bible.

Cite your "issues & doubts".

Quote
As far as I am aware (and I don't claim to be an authority only a humble musician) there are no original documents used in the Bible that predate the birth of Christ which means, all predictions in the Bible (including the OT) were written AFTER his death. You present Psalms and Isa as proof but you know as well as I that those documents do not exist anywhere except the bible. Which again means they were at the very least included from Jewish texts AFTER the Crucifiction.

You must be reading from the Kirby website. (rofl)
The entirety of the OT is based upon the Alexandrian Septuagint, which was done some 350 years before Christ, and there are extant manuscripts dating from that time. Additionally, almost complete scrolls and papyri of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others have been found dating to 500 BC.
Those who allege that the prophecies were written after the occurrences are simply self-serving in their desire to remove the possibilities of supernatural intervention in the affairs of humanity.
It is most often asserted that Daniel was written post-exilic somewhere around 100 BC, instead of pre-Jerusalem rebuilding. Some have even tried to date it to post-70 AD because of the prophecy about Jerusalem. Unfortunately, there have been found manuscripts dated to 425-500 BC, in addition to the fact that some of the language is unique to the exile, and was completely lost within 100 years of the return to Jerusalem.

Quote
Many books have changed peoples lives from diet and self reflection to empowerment books but we don't lend them the same mystical powers.

Really?? Then you need to have a real chat with an Atkins lover, or get up-close-and-personal with a dyed-in-the-wool fraud....er, freud freak.

Even better, talk to Jay Gould.  Tongue

BTW:
Quote
and I don't claim to be an authority only a humble musician

Stick to music.  Wink
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 10:25:38 AM by Evangelist » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2004, 11:22:09 AM »

Quote
Allinall, since you readily believe in God and all that goes along with it then you would agree that he gave man the most powerful brain of any creature. The power to question, the power to reflect, the power to ponder, do you really believe he wants you to simply accept, with no thought what could possibly be merely the writings of other men in an age when the earth was still flat and the sun revolved around it?

There is a great difference neighbor, in questioning God, and understanding Him.  He has given us a powerful brain, not to question whether He is, but to see Him as He has clearly shown Himself to be.  I've said it before, and will say it again, one need only look at the stars to see that there is a God.  One need only to look in himself to know that there is a God.  Yet we question this?  Why?  

Because in all of our wisdom and knowledge, we've developed science.  We've accomplished sooooo much in that area that we've become proud and certain that our knowledge defies the existence of God.  Tell me neighbor, if I take my computer apart, learn the usage of each component, begin to understand how the necessary power factors in, gain insight as to the workings of the each peripheral to the betterment of the whole...will that enable me to code the necessary software to make the thing actually perform?  Will it make me as wise and knowledgable as the designer?  No.  My point not being that I'd never be able to gain such knowledge.  My point, rather, is that my limited knowledge of the greater whole doesn't make me the expert, master, or the greater mind.  That, in a sense, is all science does.  It moves into a previously designed universe, takes it apart, learns how it works, sees the workings of each part in relation to the others...and learns that science has barely scratched the surface.  Then, has the audacity to claim that it knows enough to know that the Designer, not only is wrong, but never existed to begin with.  And the scientist is not a proud individual worshipping himself rather than God?

Quote
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.  Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Romans 1:21-23

Boy!  Those foolish early men!  How could the Egyptians ever have come up with bird, jackal, and dog gods?  How could they believe and worship animals, or kings?  How foolish.  And we have come so far.  Why, we've determined that, through science, there is no God.  We've determined that, through philosophy, religion is a crutch to the weak.  We've determined that, through our own vain and deceitful hearts, we are all we need in life...

Quote
What has been is what will be,
   and what has been done is what will be done,
   and there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there a thing of which it is said,
   "See, this is new"?
It has been already
   in the ages before us.
There is no remembrance of former things,
   nor will there be any remembrance
of later things yet to be
   among those who come after.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11

I don't mean this to sound harsh as it may my friend.  I mean it to sound as absurd as we make it to be.  Science takes faith.  We know more than we knew, but not enough to claim the whole.  We change previous thoughts when we learn something new.  Dude!  If I had a nickel for everytime I've learned that medical science has just learned that what I'm eating is going to kill me one year, and two years down the line figure out that not eating enough of it is going to kill me...I'd die a very sad, but nonetheless filthy rich man!   Grin Cheesy

Science is great.  But it is not the absolute.  Man knows this, so what does he do?  He removes the absolute.  We live in a society of men who believe truth to be relative.  Tell that to a man living a hundred years ago and he'd have thought you were nuts.  Tell a man today what I've just said and he'd claim the man prior to be ignorant.  Because we have "...come so far."  

It comes down to faith neighbor.  Who, and what are you going to believe?  Science, which has barely scratched the surface of what's out there...or the One Who put it out there?   Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2004, 02:30:01 PM »

Slippery Slope,

Quote
Slippery Slope Said:

I saw in a reply by the moderator "Blackeyedpeas" that people that don't quickly start agreeing with the his point of view with be banned. Is that what God teaches? You should look at them as an opportunity to enlighten them. You should only ban them if they are simply trying to cause trouble or being inflammatory, vulgar or harassing people not because their opinion or beliefs are different from yours. "Man cannot live on bread alone".

I'm just a moderator, and those are ADMIN's rules, the owner of the forum. I do agree with them 100%, and I do enforce them. This is a Christian forum. Trolls, Christians hunters, and folks who are here to disrupt or prevent our Christian fellowship are NOT welcome here. It really doesn't matter what you want to do here. It's what you will be allowed to do here as a guest on a Christian forum. It's not a matter of agreeing with my opinions, rather a matter of obeying the forum rules.

Your agreement or disagreement with the forum rules is not a matter of interest or debate. At this point, you appear to fall in the category of troll, Christian hunter, and disruptor. You will not be making analogies about the possibility of the Holy Bible being satan's work here. That post has been removed, and you can consider this to be a formal and public warning.

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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2004, 03:07:08 PM »

My apologies, I see that I must tread carefully in my quest to understand your belief system. I am grateful to you for not deleting my entire post and or banning me outright. For some reason I thought this was the Apologetics folder of this forum. That to me says this is where I can safely ask questions. I'll be careful not to pose thoughts or ideas that are contrary to Christian belief.

Dictionary.com:
aˇpolˇoˇgetˇics    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (-pl-jtks)
n. (used with a sing. verb)

The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.
 
aˇpolˇoˇgetˇic    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (-pl-jtk) also aˇpolˇoˇgetˇiˇcal (--kl) adj.
Offering or expressing an apology or excuse: an apologetic note; an apologetic smile.
Self-deprecating; humble: an apologetic manner.
Serving as or containing a formal justification or defense: an apologetic treatise on church doctrine.

n.
A formal defense or apology.

-SS  Huh
 
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"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-Albert Einstein
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2004, 03:12:55 PM »

Slippery Slope,

Read the forum rules. The name of this area of the board does not hint or suggest that you can blaspheme or mock God here. By the way, I deleted the entire post because other parts of the post were just as bad.

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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2004, 09:22:16 PM »

I disagree with you. I think the rest of my post was an insight into where I am in my search for understanding and why I have come to my conclusions. You deleting the entire post makes me feel like you just wish to hide my thoughts from others. Is this how Christianity works? Is the only way to spread Gods word to destroy or disregard any opposing thought? So far, with you at least, I am not having a good feeling about how your religion treats people and I've only been here 2 days.

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"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-Albert Einstein
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