What is there to believe...

[2nd Timothy]

Thanks for the welcome back Tim

I should have been more clear when I said I had tried to change my life to make my wife happy. At the very same time I did accept Christ into my life. I dropped all that I was for almost 2 years, a Very hard thing to do. I found myself getting uncomfortable...I was tired and getting sick more often...basically, stressed out. After a time I began to reassess my beliefs, and disbeliefs.  I wasn't living the life I was use to, I was lying to myself and my family - I realized Christianity was not the answer. After a few months my health and energy turned back to 'normal'.

Perhaps you never really surrendered your life to Him.  It sounds as if perhaps you were making the changes, not Christ?

A bit off topic for a momment:

Do you know what cancer is? It's a very universal word actually, and I don't mean in the cosmic sense Cancer is a problem or a way your body is telling you something is not right. This problem your body is having could be a stress of some type or something you have carried around with you for a long time.

Some people turn to violence, some people steal, some people get an illness. Depending on the person this is a way the body warns or lets you know there is something wrong. Some people don't know what the stress or problem is; the violent person kills and does so until they are caught. The theif steals until they are found out. The 'cancer' manifests until the person dies.  

I couldn't agree more, but of course I'm thinking from a different perspective than you are.  

Basically, the way you live your life and the things you do in that time affect you either in a positive way or a negative way.

The things we do in this life will soon equal zero.   Its going to vanish away into mere dust.  The only thing that will last forever is an eternity based on one descision.  Whether or not to allow Him mastery over your life.  

If I was to pretend to be someone I wasn't, especially to those I love and care for it would be my undoing. If would also be unfair to my family. I can't be Christian, just like you can't live the way I'm use to.

You're right.  You can't be Christian!   Only Christ can do that through you.  It still sounds to me as if you were making the changes you thought were christian in order to make those around you happy.  This is not a commitment to Christ.  With Christ, you come as you are.  He will address the issues in your life.  In fact, He is still addressing issues in my life and I have been saved over 13 years now.  I can't imagine trying to be Christ like without Christ.  Its impossible.

I really do appreciate the warm welcome and personal events people have shared with me. However, until I am 100% comfortable in whatever direction I go I can't see myself taking another route.

Again I have to agree with you on one point.  You will never see yourself taking another route.  It can only happen as the Holy Spirit leads.  Me nor anyone else in the forum can move your heart towards Him.  Yes we can share the gospel with you, but your heart being stirred must happen from Him.  This is why its so important not to ignore him while He calls.

On a somewhat dry humor note; I'll know what to do if the Rapture happens

I don't say this to scare you, but there is scripture that leads me to believe otherwise.   Paul says that those who clearly hear the gospel and understand it now, will be blinded to truth and not be able to come to salvation after the rapture.

2Th 2:9  Even him [the Antichrist], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


You are playing with fire literally friend.  Don't walk away from the truth having fully understood it.  If I understand this verse right, You will not able to find the truth after the rapture if you have fully understood it and reject it now.

Today is the day of salvation.  Don't wait till its too late!  Listen to the still small voice in your heart.  He doesn't want your attempts to change.  He wants you to come as you are.  Bring all your sin with you to the cross.  Bring all your concerns with you to the cross.  Hand it over to him and watch the changes HE is able to make in your life.  He is able to do the impossible in your life.  But He can't do it until you ask Him to.

I'm still praying for you buddy.  Me and boat load of other people here and elsewhere.  You are not slipping under Gods radar.  He is hearing your name everday now by many different people.  God wants to know you more than you can imagine.   He Loves you anduril, and so do we.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

Anduril,


 A thought just occured to me.  We have been talking about a relationship with Christ.   Do you understand what it means to be lost?  Its hard to understand salvation without first understanding this.

Grace and Peace!

[anduril]

Tim,

I guess by the Bible's definition I am lost. You also assume I am lost as you are set in one direction now. To be honest, I feel happier and even more at rest now that I don't have the full pressure of trying to be someone I'm not.

Tim, you mentioned in another forum that you were wondering why a group of atheists maybe be trying to change the minds of people here. You may have noticed I have not said you or anyone else is wrong. This would be a futile attempt by me (or anyone else). Yet everyone here has tried to suggest (directly or indirectly) that I am wrong with my beliefs...or in my case, not beliving in any one direction.

All I came here for is to get opinions and answers. It may or may not help me move towards God. I never make important decissions 'now', I always analyze. This method has always worked for me. It's not like I'm going to school myself about every religion in the world to see which one fits me - who would have time for that?

All things aside, if I live a good life and respect my family and friends that is currently all that matters to me. They are in the here and now, they are affected by my dissicions, they deserve my attention in every way. I'm not perfect, nobody is but, I can do my best.

As mentioned before, if God exists and can't see that I'm honest to others then fine, be that way. Creating people, setting them up to rise or fall and then deciding their eternal fate doesn't sound good to me especially if you have the power to prevent evil in the first place. Never introduce evil into the equation and the people you create wouldn't know the difference anyway. So why the need for evil, its just silly.

Anyway, I'll stop the beginnings of what might become a rant and end it at that.

[2nd Timothy]

Tim,

I guess by the Bible's definition I am lost. You also assume I am lost as you are set in one direction now. To be honest, I feel happier and even more at rest now that I don't have the full pressure of trying to be someone I'm not.

Good answer!  You are at rest with your fallen nature, there is no conflict with righteousness in your members.  You have provided the evidence in your answer that righteousness is not attainable by actions on your part.  I have made no assumptions, I simply know the answer and apparently you do too.     There is absolutely nothing you or I can do to be righteous and pure in the eyes of God....notta, zilch, zippo.  The moment we start trying, it becomes extremely evident how impossible it is for us to do it, as you have described.

Tim, you mentioned in another forum that you were wondering why a group of atheists maybe be trying to change the minds of people here. You may have noticed I have not said you or anyone else is wrong. This would be a futile attempt by me (or anyone else). Yet everyone here has tried to suggest (directly or indirectly) that I am wrong with my beliefs...or in my case, not beliving in any one direction.

Actually, I am not the one saying anyone is wrong.  God is.  I am simply repeating HIS words, not mine.  I am in the same boat of humanity you are in.  Only I have chosen to believe His words and accept the truth that I am not worthy of anything.  I can only rely on Him for that.

All I came here for is to get opinions and answers. It may or may not help me move towards God. I never make important decissions 'now', I always analyze. This method has always worked for me. It's not like I'm going to school myself about every religion in the world to see which one fits me - who would have time for that?

I understand.  Like I said before, I cannot make you or convince you of anything, I can only share the truth that I understand and pray that you will receive it.   Only God can move the heart, its up to the individual to respond.   Only YOU can make that choice....and only YOU will be able to answer for that choice.  No one else.

All things aside, if I live a good life and respect my family and friends that is currently all that matters to me. They are in the here and now, they are affected by my dissicions, they deserve my attention in every way. I'm not perfect, nobody is but, I can do my best.

Again I completely understand.  I too am human and know all too well how you feel here.  But I also know how much more God is able to direct my life in a manner that has ultimate affect on my family memebers.   I am a better person for it, they see this in my life, and know its because of God and His working in my life.  He is the reason, not me.

As mentioned before, if God exists and can't see that I'm honest to others then fine, be that way. Creating people, setting them up to rise or fall and then deciding their eternal fate doesn't sound good to me especially if you have the power to prevent evil in the first place. Never introduce evil into the equation and the people you create wouldn't know the difference anyway. So why the need for evil, its just silly.

If I never allowed my children to fail, they would never know or understand the depth of my love for them, nor would I be able to share in their trust and reliance on me for that.  

God made a sovereign choice to create mankind with will, intellect, emotion and moral reason that corresponds to His own personality. One of the reasons He did this was so that he could give us the ability to choose independently of His will. This was a calculated risk God was willing to take in order that He could create us with the ability to experience His love and to love Him back. Without freedom of choice, there can be no love nor fellowship. Robots cannot love.

Reasoning away a need for evil does not erase God, because you are all too aware that evil does exist, therefore, God too must also exist.

Grace and Peace!

[anduril]

For the most part, I am at rest because I'm not being presured into Christianity. It also makes me uncomfortable hearing different points of view for what seems like different types of Christianity, atleast on the surface; ie: Protestant, Pentacostal, Catholic, Mennonite, etc.

Then all the other religions of the world, where did they come from? did God create them? All the people in the Bible are mainly from the Middle East, I'm pale and fair haired. Explain the different skin and hair tones? All the different languages? Difficult to understand why the Christian way (or any religion) is the 'right' way.

The top 20 I pasted below with figures from 2002;

1. Christianity: 2 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
5. Buddhism: 360 million
6. Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
7. primal-indigenous: 150 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 14 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 6 million
14. Jainism: 4 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 3 million
17. Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
18. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Some of the above, if not all are considered 'man-made' religions by Christians. I'd say Christianity is on-top because they, at the time of the world conquerors; Spanish, English, etc. spread "the word" using fear and even death to those would did not 'believe'. That was human nature ...and still is, to a point.

Explain why a few hundred years ago the Philippines had their own belief system, then the Spanish invaded, conquerored them for 350 years and now they are mostly Christian and Muslim.

The above is a tiny portion of what happened all over the world for 100s of years. Do you believe in a god that would let this happen? It's not just Christian-based beliefs but, I use the history of Christians to make my point. Sure there were honest missionaries however, for the most part the past was brutal.

Thats why I asked; why would an all powerful god create the existance of evil. If a god was starting everything from scratch would it not make sense not to add evil to the equation. In other words, if there was no evil right from the beginning you'd never know the difference and you wouldn't have to appreciate good as good would be all around!

Wishful thinking on my part.

[2nd Timothy]

Anduril,

as I have repeatedly said, without giving man a choice to choose whether or not to accept God, how could He ever experience true and genuine Love?   God does not want robots created for service which is what He would have had he not allowed man a choice.  He wants a genuine relationship out of trust and Love.


All the numbers you post are truely telling to me about religion.   There should be no question from these that man recognises he truely has a problem.   The reason there are so many religions is that men do not know how to diagnose the problem.   God on the other hand does....God says, the problem is sin!   Watching the nightly news for about 20 mins should remove all doubt that man has a terrible illness.  Murder, hate, rape, theft, deceit, lying, coruption, lust and on and on and on.   These are not new problems either.  This has been going on from centuries past.   Why do you think we have so many religions?  Because most men know they have a problem, they just fail to diagnose the problem correctly.

Religion, philosophers and science all try to diagnose the problem man has.  They all fall short because they attempt to appease the man himself in a way to make him better on the outside, (they address the symptoms and not the disease.)  Religion tells people, go to church, say prayers pay your tithes, be good to others, feed the hungry, give to the poor etc.   These are all good things, but they do not address the real problem on the inside of man.  They only cover the symptoms of it.

Science attempts to address the problem by removing God completely from the equation because without Him, there is no need to worry about being accountable for what we do.  We are here for a mere flash of time and then we're gone...no sweat.

Like bad doctors, all of these ideals address mans problem on the outside....like rubbing medicine on your skin while the cancer inside is eating you alive.   Unless we understand the problem, we cannot make the correct diagnosis and treat the real problem.

Mans problem is that he is a sinner.  We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.   Some of mans attempts to correct his problem of sin was religion, science etc....Jesus was Gods answer to the problem.  

You me and everyone else in life are up against an impossible barrier between us and God.   We will never be able to be pleasing in the eyes of a perfect Just and Holy God.   There is no man who has ever lived but one, who was able to go over the barrier of sin man put between himself and God.  God himself loved us enough, to step out of eternity, and take on human flesh and be tempted as we are, feel the struggles that we face, and live a perfect life in order to destroy those barriers so that we could be reconsiled to Him.

The Man that God became was Jesus Christ.   His perfect life was the only perfect life a man has ever lived thus satisfying Gods perfect Holiness.  His innocent death also satisfied Gods perfect justice for all of mans sins.  He literally became sin on the cross...YOUR sin, and put it to death with Him.   Through His resurrection, we are reunited with God.  The spiritual death that we inherrited from Adam is restored through faith in Him.  GOD bought us from the slavery of sin, he paid the wages that we owe.   Jesus was the only one who could satisfy Gods perfection in holiness and Gods justice for sin.   By asking Him into our lives and believing on him, we say to Him that we totally trust in Him for our salvation.  When we do this His spirit takes up residence in our hearts and our spiritual life becomes born of Him.    The problem of sin that is found on the inside of man can finally be addressed.   As spiritual babies in Christ, we begin a walk of faith and trust in the Lord.   The things that we used to find joy in, start not to appeal to us anymore.  Its not by self will that we address all the issues....but its Him living in us that does.

This is why I was telling you before that you can't decide to fix all your sin and live a lie before you wife and church.  God has to do it.  You can never do it.  You may have fooled many people for a while, but the ole true nature of the heart is alive and well.  The illness that you bear is untreated...you only hid it from others for a time.

If you want to cure it, there is only one way to do it.   And that is letting Jesus into your very being and allowing Him to clean up the mess.   You were built for it.  But its still your choice.   The more resist the harder your heart will become.   God Loves you buddy, and I know He wants to know you.  You can run, but you cannot hide from God almighty.   One day, you are going to say, "why did I wait so long to give Jesus a try?"

The word of God says that every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.   There are two kinds of people.  Those who confess in this life, and those who will confess in the next.   One way or the other, you will one day acknowledge your God, and sadly He will only be able to acknowledge those who chose Him in this life, those who let Him address their illness while there was still time for a cure.  

Grace and Peace!

[ollie]

For the most part, I am at rest because I'm not being presured into Christianity. It also makes me uncomfortable hearing different points of view for what seems like different types of Christianity, atleast on the surface; ie: Protestant, Pentacostal, Catholic, Mennonite, etc.

Then all the other religions of the world, where did they come from? did God create them? All the people in the Bible are mainly from the Middle East, I'm pale and fair haired. Explain the different skin and hair tones? All the different languages? Difficult to understand why the Christian way (or any religion) is the 'right' way.

The top 20 I pasted below with figures from 2002;

1. Christianity: 2 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
5. Buddhism: 360 million
6. Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
7. primal-indigenous: 150 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 14 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 6 million
14. Jainism: 4 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 3 million
17. Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
18. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Some of the above, if not all are considered 'man-made' religions by Christians. I'd say Christianity is on-top because they, at the time of the world conquerors; Spanish, English, etc. spread "the word" using fear and even death to those would did not 'believe'. That was human nature ...and still is, to a point.

Explain why a few hundred years ago the Philippines had their own belief system, then the Spanish invaded, conquerored them for 350 years and now they are mostly Christian and Muslim.

The above is a tiny portion of what happened all over the world for 100s of years. Do you believe in a god that would let this happen? It's not just Christian-based beliefs but, I use the history of Christians to make my point. Sure there were honest missionaries however, for the most part the past was brutal.

Thats why I asked; why would an all powerful god create the existance of evil. If a god was starting everything from scratch would it not make sense not to add evil to the equation. In other words, if there was no evil right from the beginning you'd never know the difference and you wouldn't have to appreciate good as good would be all around!

Wishful thinking on my part.

Thats why I asked; why would an all powerful god create the existance of evil.

Because he is Jehovah.  .......Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? .....Isaiah 44:9

If a god was starting everything from scratch would it not make sense not to add evil to the equation.

That is human logic. God's ways are not man's.


 

In other words, if there was no evil right from the beginning you'd never know the difference and you wouldn't have to appreciate good as good would be all around!

There was no evil in the beginning. It was all good
It is the created man that has corrupted the earth not the creator God. See the book of Genesis in the Bible.

May the greater love of Christ be yours,
ollie

[anduril]

I to can quote something from the Bible, Koran, Vedas, Confucius, etc, etc. and find a line that 'would make sense' in explaining the beliefs or a specific moment. I realize most of my questions are unanswerable. I can't answer them either.

I like these quotes from the late Carl Sagan;

"There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny."

"Anything you don't understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it."

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

On that last quote I agree and to add to it;

Politics and Religion are the worse things to debate, I should know this by now. Politics and Religion cause more division than good.

Thanks for your time,
Anduril

---

[2nd Timothy]

I to can quote something from the Bible, Koran, Vedas, Confucius, etc, etc. and find a line that 'would make sense' in explaining the beliefs or a specific moment. I realize most of my questions are unanswerable. I can't answer them either.

All of your questions may seem moot to many, but the answer is as easy as it ever could be.   Your disbelief is what keeps you from finding the answer.

I like these quotes from the late Carl Sagan;

"There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny."

"Anything you don't understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it."

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

    Funny you should quote this.  I think it fits perfectly!   Men should be able to realize they are wrong.  Its the only way man will ever find ultimate truth.   But as he says, change is sometimes painful, it requires us to admit we were wrong about our beliefs, and that God was right all along.   I can't answer for religion or politics being non-changing because neither of them have any bearing on our discussion.  I know that when truth found me, I was forced to admit I was wrong, and that Christ was right.  I too have never looked back.   Like Carl Sagan, I relate to these, only from a slightly different perspective.  

On that last quote I agree and to add to it;

Politics and Religion are the worse things to debate, I should know this by now. Politics and Religion cause more division than good.

I have no interest in politics or religion.  And I couldn't agree more about the division they can cause.   You are still unable to see that the truth I speak of, has nothing to do with religion of politics though.   I wish I knew how to make that clearer for you, but I don't.   Only God is able to open mans eyes, and until He does, I pray that the seed of truth has been planted somewhere in the good soil of your heart friend.   Perhaps at another time God will send someone to water it, nurture it, and eventually harvest it.  This is my honest prayer.

Thanks for your time,
Anduril

Don't mention it, I would spend it all again sharing His truth with you buddy.   Anytime you want to talk or have any more questions, you can find me or others here who would be more than willing to help and pray with you Anduril.   I truly do care about you and your questions about God.  Since you are not sure, you'll just have to take it from me, God does too!  

I will be praying for you friend!

Blessings!