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Author Topic: What is there to believe...  (Read 4059 times)
anduril
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« on: August 29, 2004, 08:20:43 PM »

I'm new to the forum and have questions.

As someone who was raised with no firm religious beliefs of any type I'd like some insight as to why you think Christianity is the right way. I'm not here to flame or troll, I simply want opinions Smiley

If God is an 'all knowing (past, present, future) God' then here are my questions:

1. Why are there people on this Earth who have never heard of Christianity? In some countries in the world, Christianity was forced upon people in a cruel manner (past and present), is this how an 'All-knowing God' wanted "The Word" to be known?

2. What happens to the people who have still never heard of Christianity? Do they go to Heaven, Hell or simply disappear - even in the 'after-life'? There must be tens of thousands who still have never heard of Christianity or anything related to the Bible.

3. Comparison:
a; A non-religious person commits crimes throughout their life and on their death bed they finally ask for forgivness.

b; A religious person commits crimes in their lifetime and doesn't ask for forgiveness, they figure they have in made as they  believe.

c; A non-religious person lives a good life, never stealing or hurting anyone.

Who goes to Heaven and why?

4. Why would an 'All-knowing* God' create a races of very different people on this planet and then make puppets out of their lives? I certainly hope my life is not predetermined, if it is, then whats the point of it?

This is more of a comment/opinion than a question however;
If you were an 'all powerful God', wouldnt you create a perfect life; one with no anger, one with no fear, one with no war, etc. and most of all, a people who know you right from the start. It would be quite easy for a God and the people you create would not know the difference, as negativity would not be in their nature.

Anduril

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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2004, 08:57:26 PM »

I'm new to the forum and have questions.

If God is an 'all knowing (past, present, future) God' then here are my questions:

1. Why are there people on this Earth who have never heard of Christianity? In some countries in the world, Christianity was forced upon people in a cruel manner (past and present), is this how an 'All-knowing God' wanted "The Word" to be known?

a. Because the world is a big place  Cheesy  
b. By its mere nature, true believers would not force Christianity on anyone.  They are instructed to preach the gospel, not take prisoners.   Though your scenario may have happened in history, I certainly do not believe it to be the way God intended his word to be known.

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2. What happens to the people who have still never heard of Christianity? Do they go to Heaven, Hell or simply disappear - even in the 'after-life'? There must be tens of thousands who still have never heard of Christianity or anything related to the Bible.

If God is an all knowing God, does he know who will and will not accept him already?   How do we know that people who have never heard the name Jesus would actually accept it?  However, God being all knowing does know.   That doesn't answer the question, but it is a point to consider.

Another thought that is scriptural concerning this is...

Rom 1:20  For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Man is without excuse when he examines creation around him.  The handywork of God is visible in all things created.  I fully believe that every man comes to the question at some point in his life of, how did we get here?  Where did we come from?  The inevitible question of is there a God?   If man truely wants to know this, God will move heaven and earth to bring the seeking heart his truth and mercy.   I heard a story about a tribe of people (somewhere in indonesia?) in a remote place.  A missionary went to this place to spread the Gospel.  The tribe leader told the missionary that He and his people had been worshipping this God, but they didn't know his name was Jesus.   Just goes to show that even people in remote locations are capable of knowing God even though they may have never heard his name.

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3. Comparison:
a; A non-religious person commits crimes throughout their life and on their death bed they finally ask for forgivness.

Religion has nothing to do with it.  He would be Forgiven if his request was genuine.

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b; A religious person commits crimes in their lifetime and doesn't ask for forgiveness, they figure they have in made as they  believe.

Again, religion has nothing to do with it.  Paying lip service to God and actually receiving and doing Gods will are two different things.   This inidvidual as you have described would be in trouble at judgment time.

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c; A non-religious person lives a good life, never stealing or hurting anyone.

Religion wont cut it.  Acts of goodness wont cut it either.

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Who goes to Heaven and why?

Born again believers go.  Non believers don't.

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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4. Why would an 'All-knowing* God' create a races of very different people on this planet and then make puppets out of their lives? I certainly hope my life is not predetermined, if it is, then whats the point of it?

Is foreknowledge causetive or non-causetive?   If you knew what the lotto numbers were going to be tomorrow, does that mean you made them happen, or that you knew that they would happen?

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This is more of a comment/opinion than a question however;
If you were an 'all powerful God', wouldnt you create a perfect life; one with no anger, one with no fear, one with no war, etc. and most of all, a people who know you right from the start. It would be quite easy for a God and the people you create would not know the difference, as negativity would not be in their nature.


If you read Genesis, I think you will see that that is exactly what God did  Smiley    He even said, it is GOOD!   God didn't make man rebel, mans heart did.  A heart that needed to be free to choose in order to show genuine Love to his creator.  If God made robots, he would never know the true love and worship he wants from his creation.

BTW, Welcome to CU Anduril!


Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2004, 10:37:40 PM »


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a. Because the world is a big place  Cheesy  
b. By its mere nature, true believers would not force Christianity on anyone.  They are instructed to preach the gospel, not take prisoners.   Though your scenario may have happened in history, I certainly do not believe it to be the way God intended his word to be known.

Most Pastor's I have listened too say; "God is All Knowing all seeing" ..well then, if He is how could He let His Word be spread in such a way, He knows what is going to happen because, apparently, He planned it!

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If God is an all knowing God, does he know who will and will not accept him already?   How do we know that people who have never heard the name Jesus would actually accept it?  However, God being all knowing does know.   That doesn't answer the question, but it is a point to consider.

Nobody can answer this but, atleast you provided a point to ponder Smiley


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Born again believers go.  Non believers don't.

That is too bad. It makes me even more distant to hear that even though I live a pretty good life that I/someone else still doesn't have a chance compared to someone who murders.

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Is foreknowledge causetive or non-causetive?   If you knew what the lotto numbers were going to be tomorrow, does that mean you made them happen, or that you knew that they would happen?

If I knew the lotto numbers ahead of time the lotto would either be rigged by me or guessed by me. Either way, 'an all knowing God' should not make the story in such a way because if so, our lives are rigged and we have no control, just like a script - this is the way, the only way. Even thinking about that makes me upset.

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If you read Genesis, I think you will see that that is exactly what God did  Smiley    He even said, it is GOOD!   God didn't make man rebel, mans heart did.  A heart that needed to be free to choose in order to show genuine Love to his creator.  If God made robots, he would never know the true love and worship he wants from his creation.

God apparently created a person's heart, therefore, God setup "man" to fail right from the start.

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BTW, Welcome to CU Anduril!

Thanks Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2004, 02:05:44 AM »

Quote
Most Pastor's I have listened too say; "God is All Knowing all seeing" ..well then, if He is how could He let His Word be spread in such a way, He knows what is going to happen because, apparently, He planned it!

The mere fact that it happens is proof that God didn't plan it.  If he had, then it would happen perfectly.   Wink   As I said before, foreknowledge is non-causetive.   Knowing your mom or dad will visit next week does not make it happen....you just know it ahead of time.

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2Tim-Born again believers go.  Non believers don't.
 
anduril-That is too bad. It makes me even more distant to hear that even though I live a pretty good life that I/someone else still doesn't have a chance compared to someone who murders.

When God looks at the heart of man, he is looking for holiness and sinlessness.  Are you sinless?  Never done any wrong?  Only Christ was sinless, and he died for all mans sins.  By asking God to forgive your sins, and inviting Christ into your heart you too can be saved.   In our eyes, murder is much more terrible than say stealing.  In Gods eyes, its all sin, and that sin regardless how mi-nute it is, seperates us from God.   However, we can come to Christ just as we are, and he will forgive us, and cleanse of us our sin so that we can have fellowship with God.   Makes no difference what you've done!   He is ready and waiting.   The call is all yours.

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If I knew the lotto numbers ahead of time the lotto would either be rigged by me or guessed by me. Either way, 'an all knowing God' should not make the story in such a way because if so, our lives are rigged and we have no control, just like a script - this is the way, the only way. Even thinking about that makes me upset.


You seem stuck on the point that because God knows everything, its somehow his fault.  God didn't make Rambo, you did!   Wink  (sorry I love that movie).   Let me put to you like this.  Death is a certainty is it not?   We all know that it is coming, even though we don't want it to.   Our having foreknowledge of this does not make death happen.  It also does not make us wrong because we know it will happen.  In fact, we are right when we say it will happen, because it will.   We also don't give up on life because we know we are going to die.   God didn't make us die, we did, because we are sinners.  Because WE rigged it, sin's grasp has a death hold on all of us.  He provided the escape, and did all the ground work to release us from the situation we put ourselves into.

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God apparently created a person's heart, therefore, God setup "man" to fail right from the start.

 Smiley   On the contrary, God set man up to succeed.  He provided man with all that was needed.  Man rebeled and chose to believe God had kept something from him.  Even so, God  went  a step further and provided a way back for man.  God has set you up for success anduril.   You can choose right now to succeed, by asking Christ into your heart.   You have foreknowledge about how life will end.  Death is immenant.  Christ died so you could have life.   An all knowing anduril should not make the story end in death having foreknowledge of that fact.  Life can be yours by accepting Christ today!   Having this foreknowledge, you are armed with the ability to choose.  God being all knowing, knew you before you even happened.  He died for you.  He chose you!  He is waiting.  The real question is, what will you choose?  I  promise you wont regret choosing Him.

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2004, 10:17:37 PM »

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Death is a certainty is it not?
Life is a terminal illness; God's son is the cure.

God did not set us up for failure. He gave us the gift of free will so that we could love and worship him as he does us. Since he is a Sovereign God, he knew that we would rebel against him. The only thing that for me passes as a logical explination for why he created us knowing this, is that he was already willing to give his son for us. He loved us that much before he even created us.

God is all-seeing, all-knowing and omnipotent in the fullest sense. He does knows yet does not manipulate our hearts (to simply bend us to his will would not bring him or us the same joy as worshiping him freely), so he knows who will accept his gift to us and who will not. not everyone is reached before death to be told about Christ and God's plan for us, (the world population of >6 billion is growing by the second) yet since he knows what they would chose, I believe he has a plan for those people too.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17

Welcome to CU Anduril =)

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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2004, 10:43:09 PM »

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The mere fact that it happens is proof that God didn't plan it.  If he had, then it would happen perfectly.   Wink   As I said before, foreknowledge is non-causetive.   Knowing your mom or dad will visit next week does not make it happen....you just know it ahead of time.

All knowing is all knowing, you can't give an example of something like; "your boss tells you that your hours are different next week." That is not 'all knowing' that is a schedule created by your boss, not by a 'All knowing/seeing' God (though some bosses like to think they are Wink  ) who KNOWS your destiny.

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When God looks at the heart of man, he is looking for holiness and sinlessness.  Are you sinless?  Never done any wrong?  Only Christ was sinless, and he died for all mans sins.  By asking God to forgive your sins, and inviting Christ into your heart you too can be saved.   In our eyes, murder is much more terrible than say stealing.  In Gods eyes, its all sin, and that sin regardless how mi-nute it is, seperates us from God.   However, we can come to Christ just as we are, and he will forgive us, and cleanse of us our sin so that we can have fellowship with God.   Makes no difference what you've done!   He is ready and waiting.   The call is all yours.

According to the Bible I am certainly not sinless nor am I a criminal. I just life my life as well as I can with my family. If I am to be judged on the events of my life then so be it. As mentioned before, I hope my life is not predetermined. If it is, end it now as I am but a mere toy for someone's amusement.

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You seem stuck on the point that because God knows everything, its somehow his fault.  God didn't make Rambo, you did!   Wink  (sorry I love that movie).   Let me put to you like this.  Death is a certainty is it not?   We all know that it is coming, even though we don't want it to.   Our having foreknowledge of this does not make death happen.  It also does not make us wrong because we know it will happen.  In fact, we are right when we say it will happen, because it will.   We also don't give up on life because we know we are going to die.   God didn't make us die, we did, because we are sinners.  Because WE rigged it, sin's grasp has a death hold on all of us.  He provided the escape, and did all the ground work to release us from the situation we put ourselves into.

I am stuck on God being an All knowing God. I take the line at face value and make the only conclusion I think of. Most people I have asked think the same, including the various church members I have asked.
If you were a God, who was all knowing, you'd have all the time in the universe to create a world as complex as this as well as the lifes that inhabit it. In doing so you predetermine Everything that goes on. It's like, forgive the comparsion, playing the SIMS ...if thats the case I hope i'm on an AMD FX53 Wink !!!.

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The real question is, what will you choose?

To be honest, I don't know. That is why I'm getting opinions and more knowledge via different venues Smiley


My wife is a Christian, a very devoted at that. She knows my opinions and belief system. When we married I to tried to change my ways and live the Christian life. For the first year I read a few chapters of the Bible a day, some chapters a few times. I prayed silently when things went wrong at work and also when things went well. Even before meals. These are things I never thought I'd do. After a while I found that I was doing it more for my Wife and thats when during the past year has returned with questions, doubts and sometimes resentment.

It's was tough leaving my 'casual' lifestyle for Christianity - not asking questions, just living by Faith. Thing is, I'd never want my Wife to leave her beliefs behind - its not my place to do so and I respect all that she is. As I mentioned, I don't know where this will lead. See what happens tomorrow, turn the page Wink

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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2004, 01:20:09 PM »

Quote
I am stuck on God being an All knowing God. I take the line at face value and make the only conclusion I think of. Most people I have asked think the same, including the various church members I have asked.
If you were a God, who was all knowing, you'd have all the time in the universe to create a world as complex as this as well as the lifes that inhabit it. In doing so you predetermine Everything that goes on. It's like, forgive the comparsion, playing the SIMS ...if thats the case I hope i'm on an AMD FX53

I admit its a difficult thing to wrap ones mind around for sure.   The difference is, in a sims game, the people you create do not love and worship you.  They just trudge along following the program code as it was written.  They have no choice in the matter, and you do not receive true love from them....only entertainment.   God created man to fellowship with, to love, to care for and provide all his needs.   He also desires love, trust, fellowship, praise and worship in return.  Things that He truely does deserve because of his greatness.   God doesn't want anyone to perish.   He chose all men!

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He loves all men, and doesn't want to see any of them perish.  But God will not force them to be robots and run the program, because that would take away mans ability to truely Love and serve Him.   God wants your genuine Love.  Not his own programming through you back to Him.  In order to get your genuine Love, He has to allow you to choose between running (loving) your own life, over Loving Him.  

Quote
The real question is, what will you choose?
 
 

To be honest, I don't know. That is why I'm getting opinions and more knowledge via different venues

If you want to find peace and love beyond and above anything you've ever known, I know someone who can help friend.   Wink

Quote
My wife is a Christian, a very devoted at that. She knows my opinions and belief system. When we married I to tried to change my ways and live the Christian life. For the first year I read a few chapters of the Bible a day, some chapters a few times. I prayed silently when things went wrong at work and also when things went well. Even before meals. These are things I never thought I'd do. After a while I found that I was doing it more for my Wife and thats when during the past year has returned with questions, doubts and sometimes resentment.


Being a Christian is not about going through the motions.  All the Bible reading and praying in the world doesn't make you a Christian.   Its about entering a genuine relationship with God.   This must happen first!   When you accept Christ into your heart, His Holy Spirit takes up residence there.  You become united with Him and begin to walk your life in Him.  Whatever touches you touches Him literally.   You become flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone.  A new person!   But that can only happen by confessing your sins to him and inviting him into your life.    After doing this, scripture will begin to make sense where it did not before.   Your eyes will be opened to truth!   You are fighting a loosing battle trying to make those changes on your own.   He has to do it through you.

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It's was tough leaving my 'casual' lifestyle for Christianity - not asking questions, just living by Faith. Thing is, I'd never want my Wife to leave her beliefs behind - its not my place to do so and I respect all that she is.

You can't be Christian for your wife.   This is part of what you missed the first time around.   You must realize that your sins, is what put Jesus Christ on the cross.  He died because of you and me anduril.  

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


He made the way for you and me.  Every wrong you have ever done, or ever will do is payed for by his blood.   Confess to him your sins, receive forgivness by faith, and confess with your mouth that He is your Lord, and you will begin a new journey in Him.   That journey is a life long commitment, and at times might be difficult.   But He promises never to foresake you or leave you.   Don't do it for your wife, do it for Him.   Do it because of what He did for you!

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As I mentioned, I don't know where this will lead. See what happens tomorrow, turn the page

Don't wait...

2Co 6:2  for he says, "At an acceptable time I listened to you, in a day of salvation I helped you." Behold, now is the acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.


Jesus is ready now anduril.   You don't know what may happen tomorrow.  The opportunity is here today, whereas it may not be tomorrow.  Wont you take it?

I'll be praying for you friend.   Feel free to send me a private message if you need to.

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2004, 05:25:51 PM »

anduril quote...

 
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As I mentioned, I don't know where this will lead. See what happens tomorrow, turn the page

 I agree with 2nd Tim - Don't wait.
Can you guarantee that you will even be alive tomorrow? how about later tonight? what about two minutes, or half a second from now? Once you die, it's too late my friend - this is about eternal salvation vs eternal damnation anduril - what could possibly be more important than that?

 Four and a half years ago, we learned that my brother had a terminal cancer - he was 42 at that time, and was married with four young daughters. He had a choice to make, between having as little as a few months to live, or having a highly risky surgery which could result in his instant death on the operating table, or, extend his life for a year, or at the outside, two years. He opted for the surgery. My family and I waited in the hospital, anxiously for nine hours while the surgery took place. Nurses kept preparing us for the worst. As I sat waiting, I suddenly became extremely afraid - I was actually more terrified than I can ever remember being in my entire life - and having lived a "biker" lifestyle prior to being saved, I can assure you, I have been through some extremely intense scary situations - and yet, here I was - safely sitting in a hospital waiting room surrounded by family, and I was terrified! Why? because I suddenly realized that I hadn't shared Jesus with my brother - I didn't even know if he even believed in God! Isn't that bizarre? I shared Jesus with many, many people in the previous years since I became saved, but was "embarrassed" to speak to Jim about Him. I knew that if Jim died on that table, a few short yards away from where I was sitting, that he would be doomed to eternal Hell! So, I began to pray that God would give Jim some extra time, so that I could get to work on him.

 The surgeon approached us with a grim look on his face, and all of our hearts sunk. "Jim survived the surgery, but we don't know if he will survive the night".....Those words just hung in the air, as we all listened to them - we were all helpless to do anything, and we knew it...it's a very hollow feeling my friend.

 They let us go up to the critical care room to see my brother immediately following his surgery. Jim had pancreatic cancer, and the surgery is called "whipple' and is extremely intrusive - I won't go into details here, however, if you want to understand the severity of this surgery, I suggest that you look it up on your computer.

 When I saw Jim I was shocked, and had to practically bite my tongue to keep from busting out crying. I have never seen a human being (alive) that looked in any worse shape - I will not describe it.

 Again, nurses kept trying to prepare us for the worse.

 Amazingly, and against the odds, Jim survived the surgery, and began to recover in the following couple of weeks in hospital. One night, I found myself in the hospital as well. I have pancreas trouble as well, and I had an attack. I was all dummied up on intravenous painkillers, when I borrowed my room mates wheelchair to go visit my brother. I wasn't even supposed to sit up in bed - however, I asked my wife to bring me a Bible, and after she left, I made my way up a few floors, and somehow found Jim's room.
 He was shocked to see me wheel into the room complete with goofy hospital issued gown! We had a short conversation, then I slapped the Bible down on his bed beside him. He gave me the strangest look, and before he could comment, I told him to listen, and I related to him my feelings as they came about in the waiting room during his surgery. I told him to start reading John, and that we would discuss it when he was home. I took Jim to all his chemo and radiation treatments, and watched the devastating effects take place...it was heartbreaking my friend.

 To shorten up, Jim and I spent many, many hours discussing all aspects of God/Jesus - the historical, non Biblical evidence - archaeology - evolution vs creation - why God did certain things etc. I studied harder than I ever did in my life to find all the answers he required. Jim was not quick to accept a God that was going to take him way from his girls. Jim made it a full year...and then another full year. His doctors were amazed that he made it that long, and Jim kept trying to figure a way out of the situation he was in - he never accepted the fact that he would die one day, and sooner than later. His doctors kept trying to prepare him for his inevitable, inescapable fate, and Jim wouldn't have any of it.

 When the third year went by, Jim finally accepted Jesus...It was NewYears eve of 2002.

 On Feb 4 2002 we got a frantic phone call from my niece. "Dad fell on the kitchen floor, please come quick!" My wife and I arrived at the house about ten minutes later. Jim was on the floor with his head cradled in his oldest girls lap. I rushed into the kitchen and looked into his eyes...I could see he wasn't there anymore. I felt hfor a pulse, and there was none. All his girls were home, and two of their friends were visiting at the time. I don't want to even remember the horrible reaction that followed. Thank God in Heaven that He was merciful enough to answer my prayer, and give Jim the exact amount of time he needed to accept Jesus!!!

 I hate relating this story my friend...it makes me cry and it hurts very much to relay it. However, God uses these tragic events in our lives to reach others...to draw us closer to Him...as a matter of fact, I believe we are closest to God in our darkest hours.

 You don't have the luxury of time my friend...tomorrow is not guaranteed, and not promised. Ask Him into your life NOW! He will come, He promises it. He keeps His promises.

 It won't make your flowers grow higher, or more colorful my friend - however, you will remain with your wife after your time is done here...He guarantees it. To all who believe, salvation and eternal glory with Him.

 Bronzesnake.
 
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2004, 09:13:02 PM »

BronzeSnake,

Your letter hit hard, I felt as if I was there with you. I am indeed sorry for your loss. My Dad also had cancer that matastised so quickly the doctors said they had never seen anything like it. After only one day in the hospital he passed away. Unfortunately, atleast to my knowledge, he did not accept God. 5 hours before he  passed my Dad was in great discomfort. Here was a man who never showed much emotion wrathing in bed even though he was under heavy drugs. He couldn't speak and his eyes hardly opened. I shook and wept like never before, its an image I'll never forget.

BroneSnake /  2nd Tim,

Losing a loved one or friend is beyond anything anyone should go through. I don't intend to lose anyone I know for eternity, I want to be with them. My family and friends who believe in God know where they are going, I want, no, I need to be there too!

This instant as I write this I feel scared, anxious, happy and heavy hearted all at the same time. I think I know why but, my stubborness and 'free spirit' is getting in the way again. How did you feel when God was asking you to have Him in your life? What did you say or ask?

This may be irrelevant and it may not however, it is the truth; I had a reoccuring dream when I was a boy. Every time I had a fever the same dream would happen;

I'm walking on a dirt road/lane that seems endless. On one side of the lane there is a old solid wood fence (you can't look between the boards) about 8-9' high and total black behind it, so black it has no depth.

On the other side of the lane is a shear drop, you can not see the bottom however, it is total white. In the dream I never look directly into the light but out of the corner of my eye I see a figure with even brighter beems of light around him.

There is a constant endless hum around me, best described as... very odd, low, bass type drone.

Then the dream ends. It's very detailed, more than I can explain.

Anduril
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2004, 09:39:24 PM »

Quote
This instant as I write this I feel scared, anxious, happy and heavy hearted all at the same time. I think I know why but, my stubborness and 'free spirit' is getting in the way again. How did you feel when God was asking you to have Him in your life? What did you say or ask?

I would say it sounds as if the He is calling you friend.  I felt very similar when I gave my heart to the Lord.

If you want to be saved, say the following prayer....

Dear Lord, I know I am a sinner.  I know that you died for my sins Jesus.  I ask you now, to come into my life and forgive me of my sins.   I commit my life to you this very moment, and accept you into my life right now.  Thank you Lord Jesus!

Amen!


Friend, if you pray that prayer, and mean it in earnest....YOU WILL BE SAVED.   If you pray this prayer, I want to know about it!   Confess with your mouth, that Jesus is Lord!  Don't listen to the thoughts in your head.  Listen to your heart!  The still small voice thats pleading.

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Grace and Peace!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 09:48:12 PM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2004, 01:18:11 PM »

anduril...my brother...

 I am so sorry about your Dad. I understand that pain. Just yesterday, I attended the funeral of a friend from Church. He was 63 years old, and had a heart attack while recovering from a horrible car crash. Bill, was so positive of his faith, that he told the doctors that he was in a win-win situation... Theses are his exact words, and he spoke them with a cheerful attitude and absolute confidence "If I recover from this accident, and all the surgery, I can go home and spend more time with my family...If I die, then I'm going home to be with Jesus!" The funeral home Bill was at, is the same one my brother was in. I was caught off guard there. I had to pray very hard for strength from God, in order to keep the tears back. It was a struggle, but God came through.

 I believe 2ndTim is right on the money. The "endless" road you saw represented eternity - on one side, eternal damnation, and on the other side eternal salvation in Heaven. I believe the dark fence which you could not see through, and the noise, represent satan trying to block out the truth. However, he isn't up to the job - Jesus always finds a way through - that's the light you describe. It's up to you to ignore satan's attempts to blind and deafen you, and trust what your spirit is telling you.

 I also had a repeating dream when I was a child. In my dream - I was at the bottom of a steep paved road - I actually recognized the road, as one that was just down the street from our home at that time. I attempted to walk up the hill, but I didn't get very far up, when I began to slide down to the bottom. Each time I had that dream, I would get a wee bit higher up, only to slide right back down to the bottom again. It was very frustrating for me, even as a child. As time passed ( years ) the dream continued, only at times, I would get almost half way up, and begin to slide down, but not all the way to the bottom. Then I would dream again, and I would slide all the way down. Finally, after several years of the dream ( not every night, but perhaps, once or twice a month) I finally reached the top!

For years the dream hung over me like peanut butter on the roof of my mouth...I was perplexed. I knew the dream had some kind of significance, I simply couldn't put it together.

 Then, one day it hit me. The dream had mimicked my spiritual journey! When I was very young, some friends and I were playing at a favorite parking lot...a church parking lot. The church was tiny, I'll bet it only held twenty people. One day, the pastor approached us, and asked to to see if our parents would allow us to attend a "children's" service. So I went, and I immediately connected, I felt instantly that I was "home"

 As I recall, I only attended twice, then the rest of my life went on pretty much without God until I was around twelve, when, once again, Mom "forced" me to attend church...I was bored stiff each Sunday for two whole hours...little did I know, that those early encounters with God, would one day find me a born again Christian. It was an up and down ride though - exactly as my dream had depicted. I made it to the top of the hill my brother, and so will you!!! God gives us these dreams, to prove to us that He knows everything from past, present, and future, He uses such methods to make us secure in our faith. God knew I would struggle with Him for many years. He knew my sliding would be substantial. He also knew I would eventually be saved by Jesus.

 He knows your doubts. He understands satan's methods, and He has given you enough of His light to guide you around satan's traps. Turn and face His light full on my brother, and He will transform you, I guarantee it.

Bronzesnake.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2004, 01:33:09 PM by Bronzesnake » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2004, 05:14:53 PM »

 anduril quote...

Quote:
As I mentioned, I don't know where this will lead. See what happens tomorrow, turn the page

I agree with 2nd Tim and BRNZ - Don't wait.

I have lost my wife, she was killed. I know though, she will be with God now, (the Rapture.)

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Knowing 2T or BRNZ one of them have posted a prayer, of salvation for you.
Pray that prayer, mean it with all your heart. God will hear you and come to be with you. You will find that you will be at peace, with yourself. This is because of Gods, presents with you.
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2004, 06:42:17 PM »

anduril quote...

Quote:
As I mentioned, I don't know where this will lead. See what happens tomorrow, turn the page

I agree with 2nd Tim and BRNZ - Don't wait.

I have lost my wife, she was killed. I know though, she will be with God now, (the Rapture.)

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Knowing 2T or BRNZ one of them have posted a prayer, of salvation for you.
Pray that prayer, mean it with all your heart. God will hear you and come to be with you. You will find that you will be at peace, with yourself. This is because of Gods, presents with you.

 D.W. my friend...my brother...my heart goes out to you. That kind of loss is very painful. Thank God in Heaven for the blessed hope.

Bronzesnake.
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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2004, 12:53:42 AM »

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The mere fact that it happens is proof that God didn't plan it.  If he had, then it would happen perfectly.   Wink   As I said before, foreknowledge is non-causetive.   Knowing your mom or dad will visit next week does not make it happen....you just know it ahead of time.

All knowing is all knowing, you can't give an example of something like; "your boss tells you that your hours are different next week." That is not 'all knowing' that is a schedule created by your boss, not by a 'All knowing/seeing' God (though some bosses like to think they are Wink  ) who KNOWS your destiny.

Quote
When God looks at the heart of man, he is looking for holiness and sinlessness.  Are you sinless?  Never done any wrong?  Only Christ was sinless, and he died for all mans sins.  By asking God to forgive your sins, and inviting Christ into your heart you too can be saved.   In our eyes, murder is much more terrible than say stealing.  In Gods eyes, its all sin, and that sin regardless how mi-nute it is, seperates us from God.   However, we can come to Christ just as we are, and he will forgive us, and cleanse of us our sin so that we can have fellowship with God.   Makes no difference what you've done!   He is ready and waiting.   The call is all yours.

According to the Bible I am certainly not sinless nor am I a criminal. I just life my life as well as I can with my family. If I am to be judged on the events of my life then so be it. As mentioned before, I hope my life is not predetermined. If it is, end it now as I am but a mere toy for someone's amusement.

Quote
You seem stuck on the point that because God knows everything, its somehow his fault.  God didn't make Rambo, you did!   Wink  (sorry I love that movie).   Let me put to you like this.  Death is a certainty is it not?   We all know that it is coming, even though we don't want it to.   Our having foreknowledge of this does not make death happen.  It also does not make us wrong because we know it will happen.  In fact, we are right when we say it will happen, because it will.   We also don't give up on life because we know we are going to die.   God didn't make us die, we did, because we are sinners.  Because WE rigged it, sin's grasp has a death hold on all of us.  He provided the escape, and did all the ground work to release us from the situation we put ourselves into.

I am stuck on God being an All knowing God. I take the line at face value and make the only conclusion I think of. Most people I have asked think the same, including the various church members I have asked.
If you were a God, who was all knowing, you'd have all the time in the universe to create a world as complex as this as well as the lifes that inhabit it. In doing so you predetermine Everything that goes on. It's like, forgive the comparsion, playing the SIMS ...if thats the case I hope i'm on an AMD FX53 Wink !!!.

Quote
The real question is, what will you choose?

To be honest, I don't know. That is why I'm getting opinions and more knowledge via different venues Smiley


My wife is a Christian, a very devoted at that. She knows my opinions and belief system. When we married I to tried to change my ways and live the Christian life. For the first year I read a few chapters of the Bible a day, some chapters a few times. I prayed silently when things went wrong at work and also when things went well. Even before meals. These are things I never thought I'd do. After a while I found that I was doing it more for my Wife and thats when during the past year has returned with questions, doubts and sometimes resentment.

It's was tough leaving my 'casual' lifestyle for Christianity - not asking questions, just living by Faith. Thing is, I'd never want my Wife to leave her beliefs behind - its not my place to do so and I respect all that she is. As I mentioned, I don't know where this will lead. See what happens tomorrow, turn the page Wink


Anderil,
You give me the impression that you want to believe, but your not done having fun.  Cheesy  Is that it?
You also have an edge of anger in your statements.

We are all sinners, and yet God loves us all. He gave His only begotten  Son to die in our place ,on the cross.
Jn.3:16 reads, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

The following was one of my late husband's favorite passage's.
He's in heaven with the Lord now.
Rev.3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come to him and dine with him and he with me."
God is knocking at the door of your heart, otherwise you wouldn't be here now. Will you invite Him into your heart?
What a thrill it is to be born again. The Lord will never leave you. My prayers are with you.

God bless you,
bluelake.



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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2004, 12:55:40 PM »

Boy.  I tell ya, it isn't everyday you see a battle for a soul.  Anduril?  You've been given the truth.  You just need to believe it now.  Tangata?  You need the same truth Tim gave.  I'm praying ya both believe.   Smiley
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