Places to Worship

[ollie]

The New Testament is not totally silent with regard to worship. The key point was established by Jesus in his conversation with the woman at the well in Samaria (John 4:19-24). When the Samarian woman raised the question about the proper place of worship, Jesus replied that a new order was approaching and in fact was already present, in which God would be worshipped in spirit and truth, but not in any particular place. He could not be plainer. Jerusalem, with its temple, would no longer have the significance it once had. The Father would be worshipped neither on Mount Gerizim as the Samaritans did, nor in Jerusalem as the Jews did. True worshipers would worship the Father in spirit and truth, and the place would be insignificant.


http://www.biblical-insights.org/bi0305fet.html

[lightsavour]

 Ollie, this is a good statement, a help to those who perhaps still hold onto the 4 walls which surround them. There is more depth needed to your words however as questions will arise. Worship in Spirit and truth does not mean we do not gather together with other saints in his name. Quite the opposite.

   The truth part of our worship is that on the Lords Day we remember the Lord Jesus Christ in a collective manner by drinking of the wine, and eating of the bread. There are no given names of places or types of buildings we are to be gathered in, because we are to be simple people, remembering our Lord as he has commanded, and not to add anything. Along with our rememberance however are different commandments that have been made in the New Testament that should guideline how we remember our Lord.

   There was a big discussion on here a while ago about the female's part in worship/prayer/teaching/preaching. I strongly believe that a discerning spirit is within all of us which speaks of the truth of worship. Just because there is no given place does not mean we walk blind into our worship, we listen to our heart strings and God will show his blessings on a circle of believers, or he will not. Not all Christians are gathered in worship as God would want them. I do not speak of a right place (you were right that is Old Testament), but I do speak of a right way.

God bless.

[Petro]

Ollie,

Good reminder, I was thinking, that it doesn't have to be a large number of persons either, quantityt means nothing,

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.  Mat 18:20

So is it possible for a family of two to worship at home, and commune with the Lord, Absolutely!

I am afraid, we have been brain washed into believeing we must meet, with an ordanined pastor or preacher in our midst, in fact, alot of christians, would never even dream of attending a church, that doesn't have a big ten christian seminarian graduate as its leader.  This is bunk.

I am convinced, a simple gathering, where both share, what the Lord brings to mind, with a rememberance observance and elements, is sufficient to meet the words of the Lord, when He spoke to the samaritan woman.  

Who gauges the quality of these??   To determine if the gathering met the minimum qualifications to call it a worship service; it isn't no man on earth.

The desire to have things done a certain way is only evidence of someone wanting power over others.

I am in agreement with lightsavior, discernment is the gift, which must be excersized, as for woman pastors,

I have always wondered what these have done with the verse in 1 Cor 14:34, "woman are not even permitted to speak in church", (This is not saying a woman cannot speak to her husband or others, it means to teach the congregation)  

I don't understand why  the Lord set this commandment, but the verse that settles this matter in my mind is, only 3 verses away;

37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38  But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The ignorant are them, that insist in attending a church gathering with a woman pastor, and being taught by her....

Blessings,

Petro

[lightsavour]

Petra, a lot of nice scriptures here, however, there is something I would like to bring into the open.

 You said you dont see anything wrong with 2 christians remembering the Lord at home. I do not see where God has ever blessed in the Bible in this fashion. God has always blessed by calling a circle of believers, an assembly or a church(whatever u may call it) to a specific area. I do not mean to a place (the 4 walls), but say within a specific town. All the New Testament churche(which I dont use lightly, they are but a picture of the whole, all the believers) are found in the different areas. This was not because of a lack of believers, indeed these churches were far bigger than any I have seen. I mean the numbers... not the buildings.
 

1st Corinthians 7:17 "But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all the churches."

 This is a very good verse to show how the call to a church is much like the call to salvation. It is the answer to a need that is expressed in a soul that has been bought. A soul that is now servant/slave to a perfect Master. If we acknowledge that desire within to listen to God's call for even the smallest of things, then such a grand thing as being gathered together with saints remembering the Lord will also be one of Gods divine direction.

 I understand a part of what you have said.

 Mat 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

 This is divine calling. It is however something to be understood along with all other scriptures that correspond to the remembering of the Lord. Each church is a divine thing that is planted by God. If we are to see this, then the two or three gathered together in the name of the Lord is not a light thing. Indeed being gathered together is being accountable to God with fellow believers/saints. This is not something one can decide to take part in with different company's of believers in different situations withoutacountability. For without accountibility there is no holding of the framework for what God has planted.

 If we are to believe ourselves as free spirited after we are saved, and allow our remembrance to be an unsure thing in no definate place, then who has called us? God is very clear in his commandments about false teachers and all the things that can go wrong within an assembly of believers.

 Ok I will clarify what I mean by an example of correction to a group of churches.

 Galatians 2:4, "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage.
                 5,  To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you."

 This is to the chuhes of Galatia. Which means there were more than one. Paul would have had much influence and teaching with each, and that is why he writes the letter concerning those who would teach wrongly, he has affection for the believers here. However, it is still God who has planted each of these churches. That is why the false teaching can be noticed and exposed, because it takes away from the grace of God. Paul does not deem these people are a church... and these people are not. First he preached the Gospel, and then he followed up with the divine teaching of God. The desire to be gathered together as two or three... or two or three hundred believers was one that came from a desire to please God.. not Paul.

 Only in this divine work of God can a false teacher be read out of a circle of believers. If there be no room for teaching/correction/discipline than the word of God must not be opened entirely, because the Bible would teach us accountability in remembering the Lord. Who am I to say I cant ever be the false teacher. Only God knows, and he knows just how able any of us are to make our own ideas supreme. So his word is clear about how his people gathered in the post-salvation time. Are we not to live as they did, bound by the same grace. Are we not in communion and rememberance with the same Lord? I say we are.

God bless.

[Petro]

lightsavior,


Sorry I misled, you, I never stated it was totally unecessary to meet in corporate worship, Ollies original post was about spiritual worship.

I tottally agree with the idea, that their are specific blessings in corporate assembling of the believers; this is where the edifying, and learning, and growing takes place, but it is not to say, that it is only here in this setting that it canm only take place.

Being in subjection to the Spirit of Truth, is ultimately the bootom line in as much as all this things entail.

The promise is that He  (the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter)  is the One that shall lead you into all truth, and will call to mind whatsoever I have said.

The assembling oneself with believers, allows the excersising of the gifts, which are to edify the whole body, in a smaller  setting this may not be as intense, not as grandious as it would appear in a larger setting, but the blessings can be more rewarding, in that there are less distractions.

So, in the end I was not at all, discounting the corporate worship, which I believe one must be involved in, to be nurtured and grow, but I do not believe, it is any more important that a small gatherings, whether it be one family or two people, the important thing is ones attitude, as Ollie has pointed out.

In this country, churches are filled to overflowing, and what I see, is they design programs for every age group, mothers this way, fathers over here, kids split up according to age groups, doing all sorts of different programs, an very little in the way of actual praising, or worshipping, it is more of a business format,  in at 10:00 am, and out at 10:45 am, because the scedule must be met for the next group of worshippers.

And it just feels good type of a ministry, what value is there in that?

While in other countries, the preaching might last for hours, and the whole family is together at the gathering.

I don't say none of it is totally wrong, but, when I read the NT early church program, it is not the same..

I am with Ollie, worship sholuld be 24/7/365.

This I agree with,for sure.

And my preference is and has always been, small churches is preferable than in the 1,000s.

Blessings,

Petro

[stelizabeth]

Petro,

Well, well, you are a member of the Church of Christ.  One of my best friends is also.  Alas, she is as deluded as you are. The Church of Christ has never ceased to exist since 33 A.D. She is the Holy Orthodox Church.  She was not founded by men as your "church" is.

[Petro]

stelizabeth,

Sorry to disappoint you, I am non denominational, I have shared that herein many time before.

Church of Christ believes they are the only true church as your and most all others who are on the fringes of being recognized as cults..

Nice try, thou


Petro

[lightsavour]

 Petra, do you believe in Gods planting of accountability within an area before a church?(ie, elders)?

 If so, then you understand the need for this to go alongside any gathering place. How would a family break bread in the divine direction of God, when likely the father is the only one who could be an elder. Thus the father also likely has all the gifts of the assembly or circle. This would not be correct, as wrong teaching would be inevitable based on the scriptures.

 And I agree that many places in this world are run by mans way, but we should be caught up in the word and what God tells for us to do. Not in comparisons, and what is least best or least worst, or however it is.

 I mainly wonder at the first question, and truly appreciate you taking part in this dialogue, much can be learned when we understand where God wants us to be.

God bless.

[Petro]

Petra, do you believe in Gods planting of accountability within an area before a church?(ie, elders)?

Absolutely,

But an elder, is an elder by virute of the fact he is elected as an elder or chosen, by the congregation or assembly, or other elders, same as the deacons.

Every beliver is a priest and king, not because man has made him such, but because God has ordained it so.

So when I say, a family unit is sufficient, for gathering to worship, that is biblically correct; now if the father, of this family desires fellowship, and seeks that fellowship, among other believers, who are biblically minded, and is satisified, He and his family can be edified, and nurtured to grow and flourish in the faith with a certain group, then it is his perjorative to join the group, or not, He should submit himself to others of like faithminded indivduals, but, he is not under obligation to anyone to bow, before the cardinal, bishop, priests, reverends or whatever of the local Roman Catholic church, or Orthodox church or any ionstitution, claiming to be the only church, submission requires discernement to lead his family in the way and teaching of God according to the scxriptures, this responsinility is his given by him by God, and he doesn't just have to surrender it to anyone that comes along claiming to represent God.

If so, then you understand the need for this to go alongside any gathering place. How would a family break bread in the divine direction of God, when likely the father is the only one who could be an elder. Thus the father also likely has all the gifts of the assembly or circle. This would not be correct, as wrong teaching would be inevitable based on the scriptures.

You sound as thou you believe in the need for a priestly system, other than that established by God, do you?

The father has a priest standing before God, whatmore does he need, I don't see an elder having more authority in Gods pecking order.

The word of God calls all his children to submit one to another, as a father I will submit myself, after I have ascertained the people I am fellowshipping with are authentic, but not before, and it is important that the doctrines be viewed reasonably within ones own understanding, in the foundational doctrines, the are called the watershed of the Christian faith.

 And I agree that many places in this world are run by mans way, but we should be caught up in the word and what God tells for us to do. Not in comparisons, and what is least best or least worst, or however it is.

I don't know what your point is here, but, if your saying that the word of God, is not to be used to measure everything that is done in worship, this is where I jump off agreeing with you, the Word of God is supremely important in establishing, guiding and observing all that is desired by God, for by it, He has communicated what pleases Him, and what doesn't.

And what doesn't is called sin..

 

I mainly wonder at the first question, and truly appreciate you taking part in this dialogue, much can be learned when we understand where God wants us to be.

God bless.

In other countries, Christianis, may not even live close enough to havew fellowship with  others of faith, and the only thing that sustains them is the Holy Spirit, they don't have the opportunities we, have by virtue of the laws of the land, and they even live in fear of being found out;  Has God abandoned them?, are they not able to commune with God, just because they don't belong to an local assembly, or have elders, deacons, pastors over them, the only reason they can't fellowship the way we do,  is because there is over abundance of elders, deacons, pastors, reverends here, and no one will leave the comfort of their own little environmenst, to join them, in those countries to see after their welfare,  they might be abandoned by the physical church, but I tell you God hasn't abandoned them.

Do you think, they can't worship God, where they be..??




Blessings,
Petro

[ollie]

Petro,

[quo0te]Well, well, you are a member of the Church of Christ.

The church of Christ is the church of the Bible. One is added to it such as should be saved.

 

One of my best friends is also.  Alas, she is as deluded as you are.

If she is a member of Christ's church, how is she deluded since Christ's church is scriptural and of God. The church in the Bible.

 

The Church of Christ has never ceased to exist since 33 A.D.

True. How ever you just alluded to the fact that any one in the church of Christ is deluded.

She is the Holy Orthodox Church.  She was not founded by men as your "church" is.

Not true. There is no mention of a "Holy Orthodox Church" in the Bible. It is a name given by men and not of God.
Christ's church is not founded by men but built by Christ and it is the word of God that calls people to  obedience to God that makes them members of the Lord's body.

[lightsavour]

 Amen Ollie, this person has attacked rather than asked anything. The comments they made I am sure were not meant to say what they did, but were made in haste. I will not question further, but you were on the button exactly. Keep on. But one question, can you possibly clarify how a person is received into the church. We are not talking the Church (the Bride), but the churches that God plants in different areas. Not all are in the church that God has kept since its first being planted after our Lords resurrection. So I wonder what u mean by  

  "One is added to it such as should be saved."  I think what u mean is that if they are genuinely saved then it is in Gods plan for them to be added, but not that they are automatically added.


 Petra, where in the Bible is a father given the divine place of being an elder? If it is within the bible I will take it as truth, but I have never seen nor heard of this scripture. As much as I agree God does not leave the side of those who have no one to be in fellowship with, I have never heard of this truth that supplies the head of a family with the divine right of being a moving testimony of Gods planted church.

 Also, I wonder why my questioning the legitimacy of one man being the holder of all gifts in an assembly of believers... (ie a family by chance) can elude to me believing in a priestly system. And you said it would be something other than that planted by God. Would you agree that every circle of believers should have the ability for God to move and point out someone who should be removed from the circle? How then is this possible to maintain if only one man is in the circle? He then is accountable to only God, which is supreme indeed, yet if he be of a wrong spirit anyways, no one is there to correct him.

 I go to a place called a "Gospel Hall", the word we use for the building itself, not the people within. There are many many many Gospel Halls in this world. Perhaps thousands and all are self governing assemblies. There is no central government. I was at one time in the circle, but because of my own lawlessness I felt it necessary to remove myself. If I had of allowed it to continue without a letter removing myself then I would have been disciplined. The New Testament is very clear there needs to be correction/accountability within an assembly or circle. Therefore the governing head which is the elders, who by the grace of God decide only those things which are quite necessary. There are always an odd number of elders as decisions need to be made in sometimes very difficult situations. My question remains, how is there accountability within a family if the father is the only male?

God bless.

[Petro]

Amen Ollie, this person has attacked rather than asked anything. The comments they made I am sure were not meant to say what they did, but were made in haste. I will not question further, but you were on the button exactly. Keep on. But one question, can you possibly clarify how a person is received into the church. We are not talking the Church (the Bride), but the churches that God plants in different areas. Not all are in the church that God has kept since its first being planted after our Lords resurrection. So I wonder what u mean by  

  "One is added to it such as should be saved."  I think what u mean is that if they are genuinely saved then it is in Gods plan for them to be added, but not that they are automatically added.

lightsavior,

Thanks for your response;  

I wouldn't make more than what it is that stelizabeth said, I understood perfectly what she meant, she was talking out a certain group that identifies itslef as such, unfortunately, one has to  identify oneself, in such a way, which would give the impression (to the unlearneded) that one is something other than he is, when dealing with religious people, but she knows exactly what I meant.

I am not Ollie, but I understand what Ollie is saying, as I stated before, the real church of God, is an invisible church, Christ being the head of it, and it is He who adds those to it daily (Acts 2:47) them whom  are given to Him by the Father.
The Holy Spirit, sealing them and empowering so to be able to live a victoriuos spiritual life, this is what he meant, and it is not necessarily any one institution which you associate with being the church of God or Christ which way you prefer to say it.

you said;

We are not talking the Church (the Bride), but the churches that God plants in different areas. Not all are in the church that God has kept since its first being planted after our Lords resurrection. So I wonder what u mean by  

The Bride is the real church, what you see, is not the real church; I am wondering if you undertsand this?

Petra, where in the Bible is a father given the divine place of being an elder? If it is within the bible I will take it as truth, but I have never seen nor heard of this scripture. As much as I agree God does not leave the side of those who have no one to be in fellowship with, I have never heard of this truth that supplies the head of a family with the divine right of being a moving testimony of Gods planted church.

In the first place the father doesn't need to be appointed an elder by anyone,  the fact that he is the father of the family, makes him the head; you need to consider the history of where the word elder came from and the function of its office, the office of an elder, does not supercede the office of father, king priest, and elder can be the same thing a father of a family, king and priest divinely appointed by God

It actually spans both Testament periods, in the OT, the term elder as used in the Bible usually designated one of several terms or ideas which were associated with age, experiernce, authority as well as leadership roles.

You might want to do a word study on this.  There is no need for me to teach it here.  But i will review it for you in a nut shell.

The basic meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words for elder is "old age".

Around the time Jesus walked the earth, their was a council of elders of 71 members called the Sanhedrin (Council, Assembly)which was the highest ruling body and court of justice among the jewish people, ordinarily the High Priest normally  was considered the chairman.

The prescense of elders in the NT church, indicate that this office was assumed likewise from the synagogue, The bible associates elders with James (the Apostle) who sat as the chair at the first council at Jerusalem (Acts 15), in the ascertaining of these doctrines which were called to question and were assumed as within the jurisdictional control of the chuches governing structure, so then it is understood that elders were administrators to govern and administrate and rule and judge over the affairs of the local church (central church at Jerusalem).

And an elder who held this office in the church, did so, usually by virtue of seniority of age ( 1 Tim 5:2, 1 Pet 5:5)


Having said this, then, elders during the life and times of the Apostles, were either appointed or chosen, by the Apostles, in the begining (Acts 14:23), they played an important role in the early church, and no doubt should fill this same roll today, they visited and prayed for the sick, prayed for the sins of those afflicted and in general would have filled the role, of what a pastor occupies today in the local Christian congregations, they taught and explained the scriptures, and no doubt taught doctrine, but they alone, were not, the only teachers, nor prophets, nor, evangelists or pastors.  

The father of a family, can teach his children, guide them in the things of God, he can intercede for them, and discipline them, of course he doesn't discipline his wife, but honors her,  as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. (1 Pet 3:7)


The Elders were administrators and overseers of the flourishing assemblies of the early churches.

Now let me remind you, right here, that there is really one ultimate teacher who leads all of Gods people in the way of truth, and it is the Holy Spirit, don't think form a moment, that just because there happens to an elder, and a pastor in a church today that they, are the primary teacher of all things considered to be of God, Jesus never entrusted His church to men, it is the Holy Spirit that guides the church, faithful men are used to administrate, and lead and oversee, the small bands of the flock of God;

So, if you think that someone must absolutely be under an elder or a pastor, you don't understand, this point,

Christians are to be diligent in the keeping of the word of God, and this involves reading , studying, and meditating in the Word, quick to hear it, and slow to answer, and being as noble or more so, than the Bereans who ;


Cont'd*************

[Petro]

Acts 17
11..................... received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So when a person sits under the teaching of elders, pastors, teachers, eveangelists, it is imperative that, that Christian receive the Word and study it to see, if what is being taught is of God, and where does one do that, if not by checking it against the scriptures, the Holy Spirit will confirm this as the one prayerfully studies, what he has received form man in the name of God..

The other principle that needs to be pointed out, is the ALL Christians are to study the Word, to show themselfs approved of God..rightly dividing the Word of God  (2 Tim2:15)

So whether or not you will accept it, or not,  it is not imperative, for Fathers as leaders of there families to sit under the teaching of elders or any one else, the Holy Spirit is well able to teach and lead, any Christians by virtue of there position in Christ, fulfilling the scriptures, prophecied in the OT Jer 31:34, and;

Jhn 6
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Don't think that just because someone comes to Christ, the teaching from God stops.

The Holy Spirit  is well able to teach anyone the word of God, perfectly,  without the need of the local assembly, Now if you ask me, should they make an effor to do find a local church, to become a part of,  may answer is, yes, but it is not imperative, they will miss out on blessings but they wont lose their salvation if they don't.  


   

Also, I wonder why my questioning the legitimacy of one man being the holder of all gifts in an assembly of believers... (ie a family by chance) can elude to me believing in a priestly system. And you said it would be something other than that planted by God. Would you agree that every circle of believers should have the ability for God to move and point out someone who should be removed from the circle? How then is this possible to maintain if only one man is in the circle? He then is accountable to only God, which is supreme indeed, yet if he be of a wrong spirit anyways, no one is there to correct him.

A father, is a father because God made a father.

By virtue of the fact that God has placed him in that position as father, king and priest, this is between God and that man, you can remove a father and his family from a church, but you could never remove him from his position as father, and the only way God could remove him, is to kill him..  

No father is going to disown his child because they (the children) have sinned, he is going to make every effort to reconcile that child back into the fellowship, both with himself and with God..

In removing a father from a church of believers, you would in effect remove his children, for they are not accountable to the church, they are accountable to their father, since their father has been placed over them, by God, and no church has the authority given to it by God, to rule or overule in a Christian family, but the father only.

A discerning Christian father, needs to subject himself to be led of Gods spirit, when He does this, He will know and be guided by Gods Spirit to meet the needs of his family, I am afraid, your views or mine on this won't influence Ollie, on what is best for his family, no more than, my having any influence to change your opinion on what is best for your family.  

I go to a place called a "Gospel Hall", the word we use for the building itself, not the people within. There are many many many Gospel Halls in this world. Perhaps thousands and all are self governing assemblies. There is no central government. I was at one time in the circle, but because of my own lawlessness I felt it necessary to remove myself. If I had of allowed it to continue without a letter removing myself then I would have been disciplined. The New Testament is very clear there needs to be correction/accountability within an assembly or circle. Therefore the governing head which is the elders, who by the grace of God decide only those things which are quite necessary. There are always an odd number of elders as decisions need to be made in sometimes very difficult situations.
God bless.

I have heard of Kingdom Halls, so long as it is not one of these, I suppose, gosple hall, can be used instead of church, or fellowship hall, I guess the name doesn't matter that much to me, some people may take issue with it, but, my concern would be what goes on inside of the building moreso, than what the building is called or looks like.

Ther are many churches today that ex communicate mothers and fathers, and sanction the breaking up of families, even when fathers are saved and chose to leave these churches, they exert such oppresive rule over their members, so as to cause families to be destroyed in the name of God.

As for your last question;

My question remains, how is there accountability within a family if the father is the only male?

Now, let me remind you we have been talking about a Christrian family, led by a Father who knows and loves the Lord.

I have already covered this, the father is the leader of the family, he is accountable to God and no one else, for his own family.

The husband is the head of his wife, just as Jesus is the head of the church, children are to obey there parents, fathers are instructed to bring up, their children, in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.  Every father who knows the Lord will do this as the Lord leads Him, and he the father, does not have to consult with anybody else about how he ought to do it, if he doesn't want to.


I trust this has cleared something for you.


Blessings,  
Petro

[lightsavour]

 Petro, no sorry that never really cleared up much at all. I would like to say that i find no offence in you reading into what I say of the assembly I was gathered to. I know that as I dont explain its entire factual history you must be sceptical of our true desire to open the scriptures 100% and be taught by the Holy Spirit. But we do this, I pray you will see that by my diligence in discussion of this question.

 You have not quoted scriptures whereby a father is an ordained pastor or elder automatically of the church of his family. I have not read it yet in my own reading, so therefore I do not see enough to convince me that you are right. I will continue to be open minded, but I desire scriptures to back up your opinion... at least on this very important subject.

 You said   "The Bride is the real church, what you see, is not the real church; I am wondering if you undertsand this?"

 I wonder what you mean. Again I will ask this. When a person is saved they are automatically added to the Church or Bride of Christ. This is all believers, all those who would be raptured up if they're breath remains. However, as we are in discussion of the original church that was planted in Jerusalem (you spoke of concerning James), I would ask again, especially regarding these days. When a person is saved, many times they are not in correspondance with one of these divinely planted churches. Many times they may be found in a place where God would not want them to be. Many times they may not have any correspondance with a local assembly of believers at all. How then can you say there is not two different church settings. One is the Bride which every believer automatically enters into upon salvations day. And the other is the exact framework that God has seen fit to continue to this day in different places all around the world. They cannot be one and the same, as not everyone is gathered in a place that God has planted. Yet all who are saved are part of the Bride.

God bless.

[Petro]

Lightsavior reply #14

Petro, no sorry that never really cleared up much at all. I would like to say that i find no offence in you reading into what I say of the assembly I was gathered to. I know that as I dont explain its entire factual history you must be sceptical of our true desire to open the scriptures 100% and be taught by the Holy Spirit. But we do this, I pray you will see that by my diligence in discussion of this question.

You have not quoted scriptures whereby a father is an ordained pastor or elder automatically of the church of his family. I have not read it yet in my own reading, so therefore I do not see enough to convince me that you are right. I will continue to be open minded, but I desire scriptures to back up your opinion... at least on this very important subject.

Lightsavior,

You appear to place much emphasis on that which is seen, an ordained pastor, by man, in this day and age can be a ny unsaved individual who makes himself a preacher, evidenced by mail in diplomas, which can be puschased over the internet.

A father doesn't have to ordained anything.  God speaking of the father instructs him with promise,  at ;
Prov 22
6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
The child whom the father trains in the way he should go, God will bring it to pass.

You said "The Bride is the real church, what you see, is not the real church; I am wondering if you undertsand this?"

I wonder what you mean. Again I will ask this. When a person is saved they are automatically added to the Church or Bride of Christ. This is all believers, all those who would be raptured up if they're breath remains. However, as we are in discussion of the original church that was planted in Jerusalem (you spoke of concerning James), I would ask again, especially regarding these days. When a person is saved, many times they are not in correspondance with one of these divinely planted churches. Many times they may be found in a place where God would not want them to be. Many times they may not have any correspondance with a local assembly of believers at all. How then can you say there is not two different church settings. One is the Bride which every believer automatically enters into upon salvations day. And the other is the exact framework that God has seen fit to continue to this day in different places all around the world.    

Do you walk by faith or by sight?
Is your faith in Jesus, based on ther fact you fellowship, in a local assembly or because you know you are one of his??
No visible church today, is established or operating in "the exact frame work that God has seen fit to continue to this day in different places all around the world" Many calim to be and some even have the audacity to claim they are the only true one.
For instance, they don't meet, in peoples houses, and when the service is conducted, they are not perfectly observing all that has been commanded, in accordance with 1 Cor 14. They are held in a setting totally foreign to what was originally practiced in the early church.  Some break bread daily, believing that this remenbrance celebration is a true and proper sacrifice offered back up to God as a sin offering, evidenced by the changing of the elements of bread and wine (or juice) to the flesh and blood of Jesus, as a means of showing the work of their hands,  while others conduct it as a rememberance celebration, weekly or once a month, others as yourself, teach  that unless you sit under the teaching of an ordanined minister, one cannot be instructed by the Holy Speit nor receive blessings from above,  these are all mens teachings, trying to be taught as thought they be Gods Commandments.
Do you ask my opnion on these issues , so that you can believe what is right, and what isn't?
You read the same, bible I do, and if your are one of the saved, you also, possess the same spirit, and you fail to see, the liberty one has in Christ.
I have been very clear to state, that believers should worship corporately with other believers, but it is not a matter of them losing their salvation if they do not, they will miss out on spiritual blessings and fellowship, but you are wrong if you say, it is absolutely necessary to do so, since they cannot receive anything from above unless they do, it your way, or my churches way.

They cannot be one and the same, as not everyone is gathered in a place that God has planted. Yet all who are saved are part of the Bride.

God bless.

Well there you go, you can see, they are not one and the same, so what does this mean to you?

The invisible church is 100% regenerated people of God, the visible church is made up of sheep and goats, sometimes even the pastors and elders are goats, so for you to assume that just because there is a church around the corner by your house it is the reral thing, is naive, you wouldn't submit to its pastor and elders if they are not Christians, the fact that they ordained from somewhere, means nothing.

I  seems to me, you have trouble accepting these things ultimately by faith, what you are unable to understand with your mind.

So there are many groups of people that make up physical churches around, none are 100 % accurate in the way they observe all things of God,  so don't put your faioth in what you see, or appear to see, Jesus said;

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.  Luke 17:20-21


Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Sorry, but I ve run out of time, hold your questions till I return..

I will answering one more post, after this one, and won't be here on this thread..

Belssings

Petro