Re:Losing salvation?

[ollie]

If one can not fall from grace then why are we admonished not to throw stumblingblocks in the path of a weaker brother or sister?

[ollie]

Hebrews 5:9.  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal salvation is only for those that obey Christ. Can one become disobedient and lose salvation?

[ollie]

The unGodly have never attained the hope of salvation. Their reward is the here and now. They can not lose something they have not. Even the righteous scarcely be saved.

However Christ died for the unGodly of which some of us were and so where there is life their is hope for all the ungodly through Jesus Christ. One must be able to discern when the unGodly make the decision to remain unGodly or become Godly.

If the unGodly choose to remain unGodly then one must withdraw in due time lest the ungodliness rubs off and causes one to stumble.

 Romans 6:6.  "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

1 Peter 4:17.  "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
 18.  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Ollie
 

[Ambassador4Christ]

"Once Saved," "Always Saved"

Is it possible to lose your salvation? This is a very important question that we must consider carefully. If it is possible to lose salvation, it is of tantamount importance that we understand just what we must do to stay saved. If it is not possible to lose it, it is our duty to point this out to those who say it is.

First we must understand the basis of our salvation. Is salvation based on what we do?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)

The argument that we must work to stay saved often stems from an unclear understanding of all we have been given in Christ.

We are members of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22,23, 5:30)
Does Christ cut off parts of his body?

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13,14, 4:30)
Is anyone strong enough to break God's seal?

We are a purchased posession (1 Cor 6:20, 7:23; Eph 1:14)
Does God throw away that which he purchased with his own blood?

We are adopted sons of the Father (Rom 8:15-23; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5)
Does God disown his sons?

It can be easily seen that salvation cannot be lost since, from beginning to end, it is dependent on the work of Christ, not the works of men. Our works can't get us saved, and our works can't keep us saved.

But don't scriptures such as Heb 6:4-6, 10:26,27 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 teach that salvation can be lost if we don't continue in good works? Yes, they do! However, these scriptures are not written to the body of Christ in the dispensation of the grace of God. They are written to believers under the Jewish dispensation

[Sower]

Show me in scripture where it defines salvation as a soul being saved and remaining saved and then I will believe God's word but I will not believe your definitions when they are unsupported as they always are.

Michael:

The real issue really is believing God when He makes a declaration. Salvation, justification, remission of sins, imputed righteousness, are all one -- included in the gift of eternal life.

So let's look at some key verses in Romans 3:21-5:2. The subject is justification by faith and the meaning of jusitification [dikaioo] is the same as that of righteousness [dikaios] and they are used interchangeably:

1. The righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, which is [the gift] of the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ UNTO ALL AND UPON ALL THAT BELIEVE (Rom. 3:21,22).

2. We are justified FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24)

3. THrough FAITH IN HIS BLOOD we are declared righteous and our sins are remitted (Rom. 3:25)

4. God can be just as well as the Justifier of him that believes because of God's own righteousness, in that Christ met every demand of the Law on behalf of the sinner, including the demand of the wages of sin being death (Rom. 3:26).

5. Justification by faith is illustrated by the "Father of faith" -- Abraham (Rom. 4:1-5) -- Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was COUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore when we believe God it is also imputed to us for righteousness (Rom. 4:24,25).

6. Remission of sins by faith is illustrated by David who says "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Rom. 4:5-9).

7. Christ's death was for the payment of our sin-debt, and His resurrection was for our receiving of the gift of eternal life through our justification (Rom. 4:25).

8.  "THEREFORE BEING JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,: BY WHOM ALSO WE HAVE ACCESS INTO THIS GRACE WHEREIN WE STAND, AND REJOICE IN THE HOPE OF THE GLORY OF GOD" (Rom. 5:1,2).

This "hope of the glory of God' is our firm expectation of being glorified -- perfected in our bodies, souls, and spirits, when we see Christ (1 Jn. 3:1-3).

You have all the Scriptures you need now. Do not try and dispute with God, but rather humbly believe His Word. SALVATION IS THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE TO EVERY SINNER WHO BELIEVES ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD.

The Roman Catholic Church has robbed it's adherents of (1) the absolute assurance of being justified by faith, (2) the absolute assurance of peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ at all times, (3) the absolute assurance of access into the presence of God by His grace at all times, (4) the absolute assurance of being glorified by God's grace without any such thing as purgatory.

[iconHis]

Hmmm.  Well, here again will divide the word and give a more correct visual and understanding as to why some people think you can lose your salvation....unless they chose not to divide the word because of erroneous teaching that they are used to.  This will be a better explanation, I hope, and it is easy to confuse losing your spiritual salvation unless you do dig into the meat, ( if you are ready and willing to allow the Lord to show you the meat).

Referring to Ambassador4Christ's post;  He is exactly correct concerning spiritual salvation, which is the power in total salvation, and is total salvation.  Man is a trichodemy.  He has a spirit, soul, and body.  Therefore, when God promises that "everyone believing into him may not perish, but obtain aionian life" _{John 3:16b} he means that man must believe into Jesus to not lose life but to obtain life that is of the age.  This is the Diaglot's interpretation.  One of the earliest Greek translation's.    

This might be a big blow to those who think working your salvation out means working for the gift God gave you.  If the spiritual salvation from death is a gift, then how often do you pay somebody back for a gift?  Verrrrry simple to understand. You can only work your soul salvation out after you are saved.

Do you really think that what God gave you, sealed, spiritual salvation, can leak back out?  God is not this inadequate in His works. If God seals something, I don't think it's going to leak or escape. Verrry simple to understand.  

Do you actually think that you have your own faith enough to carry out the works that God gives you?  That's like saying, I can do it God, I can do it.  God wants His works through you, but you have to be saved first.  And He gives you faith.  You do not have it on your own.  You only have the decision to follow God's lead.

If you are not saved, to which you can do no works to be saved, and are given the faith, how can your works  keep you saved for the spiritual everlasting?  You are saying that Jesus is not your strength, doesn't totally give you what you need to be saved, and that it's only temporary depending on your will. I might add that you are saying Jesus's total work is not quite enough to save you. Then if that's the case, one must re-evaluate their salvation because, as I wrote before on this thread, there are three salvations.  This spiritual salvation alllows the soul salvation.  But, I think it wasn't understood, which is understandable because there is so much more to substantiate this to which was Paul's Gospel that really needs deeper study opposed to where many stop because the seminarys stop at a certain point.  Nobody wants to shake the bushes.

All saved are saved by the fire because they are saved and sealed.  The works of gold, silver, and precious stones are that of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit through you.  This can only happen once you are spritually saved.  This is your life walk after you are saved.  Once you break this down properly, all scriptures that talk about eternal salvation are extremely easy to differentiate between spiritual everlasting salvation and soul salvation.  

You can lose soul salvation, loss of rewards.  Just remember, Hell in the parables actually is Gehenna, which is the anti-type of Gehenna where the people were thrown into a punishing fire.  Gehenna is actually a type of the any-type of Outer darkness.  

The parables are unique in that they are speaking to believers, or pointing out about a child of God's or the walk with God for the examples of what happens ,what will happen, etc.; and point to the levels of a child of God's walk in life and it's consequences.  The hell is not speaking of what some think is for the unbelievers and hot fire.  This is not the original text,(hell).  Therefore, when you separate spirit salvation from soul salvation and remember there are consequences for not losing to soul, which is actually our life walk with the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin and our obedience for the Lord to overcome this sin,  well, it's just a matter of studying .  There's more to a word in translations and that is why we are to divide the word of God.

I may be as brave to speak out about this, not many venture because people have followed a lot of common beliefs, yet when you go to the most earliest translations, such original words are given.

Spiritual salvation-eternal,everlasting-aionian...for ages, or for
   an age -  cannot be lost
Soul salvation-continuous, obedient walk allowing God's will
   worked through you..can lose rewards, Apostates receive
   outer darkness for an age(millenial kingdom age)
Body salvation-ressurected at the rapture
                     redeemed at the Judment seat of Christ
                     or not redeemed until after the 1,000yr. reign
                     of Christ/ which is incidative of apostates, saved but fallen away severly.  This can happen since you cannot lose your salvation.  And salvation by the fruits don't work with this one,(meaning one can be an apostate christian but you wouldn't know he was a christian because he has fallen away) therefore, you cannot become apostate and fall away unless you were saved to fall away.
Read parables in proper context with original wording.  The parables are written in order.  They are, amazingly, a parable.  Haven't you ever ventured far enough to find out who outer darkness is for?

1 Cor.1:18
For this word,(that of the cross,)is indeed foolishness to those who are perishing;  but to those who are *being saved, even to us, it is the Power of God.

*present active, middle participle(gk), continuous action

This is not spiritual salvation that saves us for the everlasting, but it is our continual life walk on this earth,(soul salvation)  This is the most important aspect in our right now, actually, it's the whole idea of our life right now, or it should be, that is if we are saved the right way-without our works.

We cannot have fellowship with God unless we have a relationship with Him.  This relationship is conditional.  We must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ then we will be saved.
We are given the faith to do this, we are given faith for everything, and we are to allow Jesus to work through us.
We are sealed with the Holy Spirt, God does not say this leaks, he gives all a certain amount of the Holy Spirit, it does not say in the word of God that you can lose the Holy Spirit. Sealed means sealed.  It does not dissipitate.  The Spirit works with us and we can allow it to work fully, yet once we sin we have Jesus, for the exact reason he died and rose to life, to hear our repentance and we are promised forgiveness.  This is why Jesus died on the cross and rose to life t, to bring our confession to God, who promises to forgive in this order.
 
We are to walk righteously but God knows we can sin, and Jesus is our provision for that.  Therefore fellowship is broken by grieving the Holy Spirit, and until we repent our fellowship is not so great.   It is a continual walk of refinement.  And those who think they can lose their spiritual salvation are saying they can save themselves.  

This is where free will comes into place.  And really, when living for the Lord, we are given what is needed to make the right choices, therefore, it is the will of the flesh, as Paul proclaims, and this was written about in Heidi's post, that is our soul walk, or life walk, that we allow to have power rather than what the Holy Spirit convicts us of. If Paul struggled, then I can't understand how some think we shouldn't run into struggling.  When Paul says he "might" he is not talking about his promised everlasting salvation, he is talking about the soul salvation and rewards as his example with the olympiic games and rewards.

If you separate the two, you will not have such a tough time with,  Can you lose your salvation?  The first, spiritual cannot be lost, God's words are precise.  The second, soul salvation can be lost causing loss of rewards, etc.

The power is all in looking to God's will, allowing Jesus to work through you, and keeping your hope on the Glorious Day of the Lord.    

Not expecting yourself to save yourself for the age, and ages to come.
Context, history,original mss., law of first mentioned, all are important, and of course, believing the Bible is infallible Word of God.

1 Cor 3:11-16   Explanation of salvation,works judged and consequence

For no one can lay another Foundation besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

_{Salvation first, Jesus as your Lord.}

And if, on this foundation, and one build up Gold, silver, costly stones;  wood hay, straw;

_{obviously only gold, silver, and precious stones will remain through a fire, not our works of wood, hay, and straw.}

the work of each will become manifest;  for the day will show it, because it is revelaed by fire; and so every one's work, whatever it is, the same fire will prove.

if the work of any one remain, which he built up, he will receive a recompense;

if the work of any one shall be consumed, he will suffer loss;  he himself, however, will be saved, but so as through a fire.

<sub>The believer will suffer loss if, obviously, there are only works of self and not any of God's works done through you.[/sub

Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and the spirit of God dwells among you?

Salvation first-Jesus did all the work for this everlasting salvation.  Soul salvation,( resting while the Lord works through us), can only happen once saved and it can be lost.  It seems that you are ready for the meat with this question, so now is the time to divide the Word and ask God to show you the truth.  Soul salvation begins digesting the meat.</sub>

[iconHis]

I'm sorry, but I didn't say pergatory.  I didn't say anything about peace being taken away from the christian.  What I did point out is that ...

An apostate,( a christian fallen away from the faith will suffer loss, it's real obvious-to me by scripture).
Precept upon precept
context
who the scripture is talking to or about

The quote from 1 Corinthians 3 definately is speaking of the believer, and what happens when there is no works of gold, silver, or precious stones-suffering loss, although saved.
    There are those out there saved, yet fall away, only God
    knows their heart, not us, we can't judge by works
    everytime if somebody is saved
Matthew 25:14-30
Is talking about the master who "called his own servants" and the end result was one that the servant,(christian believer), was unprofitable,  and was cast into out darkness where ther will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  This is not pergatory.
This is the outrer darkness for one who rejects a life with the Lord after he is saved, for he is listed as a servant, just as the others.  

Same in the parable of chapter 24 of Matthew.
It talks about the "evil servant"  that says the Lord delays His coming.  This is one of God's children that began the mockery as prophesized would happen by Peter, and God says He will
"cut(dichodemize=bisect (in two-summizing soul and body) gk, yet still saved spiritually), and appoint (lie down in horizontal position) him his portion with the hypocrotes'  tjere sja;; be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All ten virgins were saved, but there were five that didn't fill their lamps and were not ready, and the Lord came and"and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut"  Matt.25:10 This is rather obvious.  
Why do you think the Lord said He knew them not in verse 12 of Matthew 25?

We shouldn't be in fear of our salvation, but we should have the fear of God, for this is noted in the Word of God for salvation.  I'm not saying that our whole life should be works, fear, etc.  You most likely know what reverant fear is.  I know that Jesus did all the work, loves us sooo much, and we have assurance in our salvation.  I am pointing out exact scripture in context, and I know that this is deeper than what most want to go.  But, hey, I don't go on what man says alone.  I don't care what seminars have to say when I have been shown truths that answer some of what I hear they question.

It is so simple that I think all want to make everything so hard.
God is just showing us that our salvation was a gift, and He did send Jesus down to die for our sins and raise to life again.  This is an extremely huge sacrifice with our perfect living Lord.  What do you expect?  You know there is a judgment seat.  Assurance is promised, looking and loving the Lord with all our heart, body, mind is what He asks.  Our fellowship is extremely important for the will of God for His glory.  

Also, I know that we must rest so that the Lord can work through us.  Our life in Jesus is a peaceful, joyous, one that can never be duplicated by the unsaved.  We don't have to worry, that's a sin anyway-not trusting God, and we can trust in Him for everything.  So who are those apostate?  Many different reasons for apostasizing.  But the main one, as all sin is rebellion.  We all know that can snowball.  But God pulls us out and gives us much help in our lives.  
Yet there are those that reject that help over and over again.
In Christ   iconHis

[iconHis]

I did not say you could lose your eternal salvation.
I believe that Jesus died for our sins, did all the work on the cross for those that believe into Him and that those who trusted in the Lord will have everlasting life, none of our works are justified only those done through us by the Lord-therefore eliminating working for our salvation, that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit once believing verifying that we are His forever, we must hope in the Glorious Day of the Lord which is the motivator of saving our souls.
I am not a Catholic, nor do I approve of that religion.
I did not say pergatory, and do know that what I did write was not carefully read, or rejected because you are not open to deeper truths.
We do have a walk on earth that depends on rewards and life in the kingdom, as far as I have studied, but this is an in depth study that goes beyond, obviously, and I knew it would, the general teaching.
Therefore, just because I have divided the word more than what you have been taught, doesn't mean it's contradictive, it just means I can focus more on resting in the Lord, and enjoying trusting in His movement in my life.  
I don't waste my time with who's who in religion if you read my first post in this thread because first of all religion is man going to God, I know that God called me, I answered, and wrestle just as Paul did with the flesh, but this is the Holy Spirit between the flesh and the process of allowing Jesus to overcome the sin whatever it may be.

I will come back with scripture, but it seems that some read the posts too fast.  Presumtion is not good.  And remember, I pointed out that hell is not the original text, therefore, I know that some did not read too well, only got on the old issues of works, hell, and pergatory.  I am not even aware of what pergatory exactly is, didn't study it, and know that it does not resemble what I stated.  Read your parables with understanding.  Did I not point out who they are talking about.  Take your time, re-read the scripture in context, who they are talking about, and maybe the truth will set you free of instant raving on the general and help you to dig deeper on your own rather than conditional acceptance.  I'm not saying you have to understand, I have read all your posts.
I have to work now.  Back with scripture later.

[Matt]

People have different viewpoints on this subject - once-saved-always-saved, or that you can lose your salvation. It isn't fair to crack down and say that one way is right and that everybody else is stupid or doesn't believe the Bible if they don't believe one or the other. I, personally, believe that you can lose your salvation. As for what you said, Heidi, there is a scripture in John that says (Jesus is speaking): "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."  - I believe that nobody can be snatched out of the Father's hand, but they can jump, if they so choose.

In Hebrews chapter 6:
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

In I Peter Chapter 2:
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

And you know that parable about the sower? Remember the seeds that grew up for a while, but were promptly choked out by weeds?

These are a few examples from what I believe.

[iconHis]

I have not been offended by anything posted here.  So, Heidi, I accept your apology, and appreciate the concern.  Thank you for that consideration, yet I didn't take offense, just standing for the Grace of God.

As far as posting, I just post what I have found in the scriptures.  I will consider myself enlightened and taught if and when somebody points out something that shows true direction from something that I might have thought wrongly, or am unlearned in and that's highly possible in all my case.

I also want to state that I don't want to offend those that are Catholics.  There is 100% possibility that a catholic is saved, I know there are many saved believing the whole work of Jesus is enough to save any person for the ages, without trying to save themselves.  

aionian life - age life  

God loves the whole world, and reaches many in different sects, Praise His name.

Now, as far as losing salvation, all faculties of man work together in  salvation, therefore you cannot lose your salvation.  Yet, one cannot know how to allow God to refine, or overcome the sins in our life( to which we must be obedient in that fellowship), unless He is saved allowing the Holy Spirit that we are baptized into and sealed once saved to work and guide us from God's working with us.

I gave scripture separating the spirit, body, and soul.
First of all I have the fear of God.  I am open folks, but I have studied much more than this that covers many things in the Word concerning our walk up to the judgment seat of Christ, His millenial kingdom, and afterwards.

God makes all things work together.  I am not saying we work, I am saying God works and we must be obedient, or there's a stopper until we learn that we just can't go any further in God's will until we are.  Not all things in the walk with the Lord are works, I am only talking of those times when we know that we should be obedient, but usually, if your eyes are on the Lord the love from the Lord fills us with so much joy, we love to follow Him.  And that's basically all it is is following Jesus when He leads.  Usually when we stop it's because we want something else, or don't want to give up something else, or are just outright lazy.  

Faith without workks is dead, work without faith is dead

"For the fear of wisdom is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction."Proverbs 1:10

If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou scoffest, thou alone shalt bear it."  Proverbs 9:10

Wherefore, receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and Godly fear.  Hebrews 12:28

For our God is a consuming fire.  Hebrews 12:29

Hebrews 5:7-9
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared,

Though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered:

Jesus knew how to fear, learn obedience- Moses feared
Then who are we not to?

[u]and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal  salvation unto all them that obey him[/u]

These verses tell me that not all things are lovey lovey.  If there is a Judgment Seat of Christ, then there is a judgment.  There are apostate Christians!  God has his degrees in matters.  You read it, from all the scriptures that say servants that I gave before, this is a somber thing that most just won't accept.  This is not pergatory.  This is something that is right in the Word of God.  This does not mean you do not go to heaven as far as I see it.  I see it as losing the thousand year reign with Christ in the outer darkness.  There's much more that I can write, but only one thing that I do want to impress.  I have studied this, not you.  You may choose to seek out the whole path of a deeper understanding of our salvation.  It is the meat.  Pressing towards the mark, receiving the reward.  But, we do not need to keep our eyes on that, just remember the motivator, that one day Jesus will have His glorious day, and look to His will in our lives for God's glory.  

I have learned that I am human and do have a soul, which is the flesh and the mind.  God is in control, and free will is all over this forum.  Free will is not only used in answering God's call, it is also used to allow the Lord to be Lord over our whole life so He knows us when He comes.   This is not something to just say oh, no, this stops assurance.  Assurance is simple.  But there are conditions to all aspects of our life in our salvation.  It is a lot easier to understand the scripture when you realize what is about rewards in the ,( the meat)kingdom and eternal salvation, ( the milk).

Paul is the author of this, Peter caught on, but each had theirs to reach.  Paul even did that what he didn't want to do and didn't do what he wanted to do.  He wrestled with the spirit and the soul, ( marrow-blood is made in the marrow, mind).

There is no contradiction here, only something new that needs to be studied and found ut if true or not.  All scripture works together.  Spirit, soul, which is the context speaking of.

There is power over the soul by Jesus Christ our Lord.  But we must rest and allow Him to work in us.

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:9

Love, In Christ,  iconHis      

[Shwynix]

Hi,

If the possibility of losing my salvation did not exist then the bible would not make any mention or even hint at it.

Romans 11:19 – 23

You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in for God has the power to graft them in again.

It all comes down to faith, “provided you continue” in that faith. To continue implies a daily walk, to endure implies finnishing the race. Abide in Him and you are saved. Resort to unbelief and you will perish.

Regards,
GD

[Matt]

Matt, so you think that just because a person believes something that that makes him right?

I absolutely do not think that. That goes against everything the Bible stands for. I know that one of these beliefs is right, and one of them is wrong - but there's a way to share your feelings that makes other people feel like you're just arguing, and there's a way to share your feelings that makes other people feel like you actually care about them and what they believe. Perhaps this doesn't apply to this forum...

Anyhow, you didn't say anything at all in refrence to the verses  I posted. I don't want to argue with you - I really, truly just want to know your point of view, and why you stand behind it. What do you think those verses were saying?

-Thanks, Matt

[Matt]

Okay, that's one of the verses down. But I'd like to hear your view on the others, as well.

As for that one, you said: " If people walk away, then they can't very well be listening to his voice. Therefore they CANNOT be Jesus's true sheep"   I agree with you. Once people walk away, they are no longer Jesus' sheep, and can't hear his voice. They have lost their sheep-hood.

Oh, and no apology needed, WhatSayYou - I was actually going to repost it myself, because Heidi and I weren't on the same page. So thank you.

And, once again Heidi, I'm not trying to fight with you. I'm more trying to debate than to fight - there is a difference. And I'm mostly trying to find out why you think what you think. Please refrain from using harmful phrases such as "You think Jesus is a liar" and such, unless you truly believe that. As Christians, we all have an intimate connection with Christ, so I want you to realize that every time you say something like that, you might as well be saying "You don't trust your dad" or "I can tell you don't like your sister", which obviously causes pain in a tight family.

-Thanks, Matt

[Brother Love]

There are, however, MANY, MANY, christians who claim to be Christians who do NOT have the Holy Spirit in them

Ananias was a Christian and he had the Holy Spirit in him.

Ananias IS NOT IN HELL, he is in H-E-A-V-E-N

<))><

[Brother Love]