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nChrist
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« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2004, 06:26:57 PM »

Evangelist,

Another Amen!!!

I think that most of the hardest questions boil down to the weakness of mankind that can never be compared to the absolute MIGHT AND GLORY OF ALMIGHTY GOD!

Who is able to break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Who is able to undo the work of JESUS that made us fit for our inheritance?

Who is able to snatch us from the MIGHTY HAND OF JESUS?

Brother, I'm positive that the devil doesn't want us to have 100% assurance of Salvation. Doubt is what the devil wants.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2004, 05:39:36 AM »

I'm a newcomer to the sight but not to my Lord. Let me first state that I've been saved for about 9 years and FIRMLY believe that once saved, always saved since Jesus "died once for all." It would seem to me that if we could lose our salvation, Jesus would have to die again. And I find nowhere in God's perfect, infallable Word that states Christ is going to die again.

Those of us that believe, understand that we are in a constant spiritual battle, a warfare between the powers of God and the powers of Satan. And Satan is continually trying to deceive us into believing that the promises of God are not true. When God ALLOWED Jesus to be taken into the desert to be tempted by the devil, the devil tried to use scripture against Jesus to get him to commit sin. Why should we not believe that Satan won't do the same with us?

Sometimes we make scripture or something that the Holy Spirit is trying to lead us through be far more complicated than it needs to be. But that's the nature of the beast as far as humans are concerned. We are so adept at taking something simple and making it quite complicated by adding our own thinking or theology into the mix. And that's when Satan starts smiling.

The greatest plan that God reveals to us in His Word is the plan of salvation which is made complete in Jesus Christ. He wanted (and still wants) us to be reconciled to himself so much that He gave Jesus up, and likewise Jesus loved us so much and wanted to please the Father so much that He obeyed Him completely in everything that He did. Our faith must consist of the belief that if God has this love for us (as He has told us He does) then He would definitely let us know if there was something that we would have to do in order to keep our salvation.

As far as our sin is concerned, we are all going to have it somewhere in our lives. Even if we are saved. If not, then we would be perfect, and therefore have no need of Christ. Now the bible says that we are made perfect in him (Jesus) because of his death, burial and resurrection. That perfection is not in our own bodies or actions, but the way that God now sees us once we have accepted the gift of God's grace through Jesus Christ. We are restored to a right relationship with him. And in order to maintain that right relationship, God expects us to come to him, as a child to a father, and be honest enough with him and ourselves to admit our sins so that He can "cleanse us of all unrighteousness." And we will need this cleaning as long as we are alive, even though we know that we are saved. But we don't lose the salvation because of our future sins. God already knows that we are going to sin, even after we are saved. What happens when we are saved is that the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and acts as a conscience of sorts to help us know when we have sinned and therefore come before a holy and gracious God to admit it to him and start anew.

As for the stumbling block thing from a few posts ago, this doesn't have anything to do with losing our salvation. What it does have to do with is causing someone to hinder their relationship with God because they see us, a Christian, doing something that is ungodly, and therefore somehow justify their own sin as being okay. An instance of this that comes to mind is after the Israelites had crossed through the Red Sea and Moses was gone for a long time upon the mountain talking to God and they became restless and frustrated and gathered all of their items made of gold and made a golden calf out of them and began to worship it. They then engaged in a lewd party of sorts of which Aaron, a priest who would later be one of those who led them into the promised land, actively took part. I wonder if Aaron had stood up for the things of God if this situation would have ever happened.

I've said alot and I hope this has helped any of you who are struggling with this issue. All I can say is trust Him, He will never lead you astray.

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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2004, 08:26:09 AM »

The deception of the devil in the beginning was the lie told to Eve that Eve would not die if she disobeyed God.

Is it a deception of the devil to be told one cannot fall from grace?

 Genesis 3:3.  "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
 4.  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 5.  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


Did Paul tell the Galatian Christians that whosoever was fallen from grace if justified by the law?

Galatians 5:4.  "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Was the devil lying to the Galatian Christians when they thought justification was in keeping the law?

  Galatians 5:7.  "Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?"

It seems the Galatians were doing well in Christ until this lie about the law was introduced. Then some believed the lie   and Paul says those some are fallen from grace.

So then, does it not appear that disobedience to God and obedience to a lie can disenfranchise one from God and bring His righteous judgement on one accordingly.
In Eve's case, death. In the Galatian's case, fallen from grace.

ollie


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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2004, 09:04:45 AM »

I'm a newcomer to the sight but not to my Lord. Let me first state that I've been saved for about 9 years and FIRMLY believe that once saved, always saved since Jesus "died once for all." It would seem to me that if we could lose our salvation, Jesus would have to die again. And I find nowhere in God's perfect, infallable Word that states Christ is going to die again.

Those of us that believe, understand that we are in a constant spiritual battle, a warfare between the powers of God and the powers of Satan. And Satan is continually trying to deceive us into believing that the promises of God are not true. When God ALLOWED Jesus to be taken into the desert to be tempted by the devil, the devil tried to use scripture against Jesus to get him to commit sin. Why should we not believe that Satan won't do the same with us?

Sometimes we make scripture or something that the Holy Spirit is trying to lead us through be far more complicated than it needs to be. But that's the nature of the beast as far as humans are concerned. We are so adept at taking something simple and making it quite complicated by adding our own thinking or theology into the mix. And that's when Satan starts smiling.

The greatest plan that God reveals to us in His Word is the plan of salvation which is made complete in Jesus Christ. He wanted (and still wants) us to be reconciled to himself so much that He gave Jesus up, and likewise Jesus loved us so much and wanted to please the Father so much that He obeyed Him completely in everything that He did. Our faith must consist of the belief that if God has this love for us (as He has told us He does) then He would definitely let us know if there was something that we would have to do in order to keep our salvation.

As far as our sin is concerned, we are all going to have it somewhere in our lives. Even if we are saved. If not, then we would be perfect, and therefore have no need of Christ. Now the bible says that we are made perfect in him (Jesus) because of his death, burial and resurrection. That perfection is not in our own bodies or actions, but the way that God now sees us once we have accepted the gift of God's grace through Jesus Christ. We are restored to a right relationship with him. And in order to maintain that right relationship, God expects us to come to him, as a child to a father, and be honest enough with him and ourselves to admit our sins so that He can "cleanse us of all unrighteousness." And we will need this cleaning as long as we are alive, even though we know that we are saved. But we don't lose the salvation because of our future sins. God already knows that we are going to sin, even after we are saved. What happens when we are saved is that the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and acts as a conscience of sorts to help us know when we have sinned and therefore come before a holy and gracious God to admit it to him and start anew.

As for the stumbling block thing from a few posts ago, this doesn't have anything to do with losing our salvation. What it does have to do with is causing someone to hinder their relationship with God because they see us, a Christian, doing something that is ungodly, and therefore somehow justify their own sin as being okay. An instance of this that comes to mind is after the Israelites had crossed through the Red Sea and Moses was gone for a long time upon the mountain talking to God and they became restless and frustrated and gathered all of their items made of gold and made a golden calf out of them and began to worship it. They then engaged in a lewd party of sorts of which Aaron, a priest who would later be one of those who led them into the promised land, actively took part. I wonder if Aaron had stood up for the things of God if this situation would have ever happened.

I've said alot and I hope this has helped any of you who are struggling with this issue. All I can say is trust Him, He will never lead you astray.



Lemme just say this: AMEN!!![/b][/u]  Man, for a first post, you've hit a chord with me Brother!  I sense a kindred spirit here.   Smiley  Great post my friend, and welcome to the boards!

His,

Kevin
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2004, 09:10:10 AM »

The deception of the devil in the beginning was the lie told to Eve that Eve would not die if she disobeyed God.

Is it a deception of the devil to be told one cannot fall from grace?

 Genesis 3:3.  "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
 4.  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 5.  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


Did Paul tell the Galatian Christians that whosoever was fallen from grace if justified by the law?

Galatians 5:4.  "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Was the devil lying to the Galatian Christians when they thought justification was in keeping the law?

  Galatians 5:7.  "Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?"

It seems the Galatians were doing well in Christ until this lie about the law was introduced. Then some believed the lie   and Paul says those some are fallen from grace.

So then, does it not appear that disobedience to God and obedience to a lie can disenfranchise one from God and bring His righteous judgement on one accordingly.
In Eve's case, death. In the Galatian's case, fallen from grace.

ollie




One major problem here brother ollie...it never says you lose your salvation.  It says you fall from grace.  It says you lose something.  What did Adam and Eve lose?  The daily presence of God walking and talking with them in Eden.  So, they were then obviously eternally damned.  The logic you must use to equate falling from grace to be loss of salvation must run this course.  However, God gave them grace in covering their sin with the shed blood of those animals that became their clothing.  He spoke of a coming Redeemer, of Whom Eve thought she had at the first born son.  

We lose something.  But that something isn't what God made eternal.  You have no verse verbatimly stating such, and many verses that run contrary.  Inference must be made, and that goes against the truth of God's word.

I know we disagree on this brother, and I'm not trying to fight you.  Please don't think that.   Smiley  

Just a thought...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2004, 09:11:41 AM by Allinall » Logged



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« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2004, 01:24:21 AM »

Thanks, Kevin. It's great to be here.

Now Ollie, if I may, I'd like to respectfully respond to your comments and scripture references.

First, you seemed to have answered your first question with your opening statement. Satan's deception of Eve was based on the fact that Eve percieved this "death" to be a physical death, when in fact God was referring to a spiritual death. And I'm sure that Satan knew this and twisted around the truth to meet his own needs. Jesus calls Satan a liar and the father of lies. Therefore it makes perfect sense that he would try to deceive us into believing that we could not fall from grace by going against God's Word.

But please notice that I said "fall from grace" and not "die." We can only fall from grace if we have experienced it in the first place. A non-believer cannot fall from grace because they haven't experienced it in the first place, they can only die. And by this I mean spiritually die, experiencing all of the terrible atrocities which the bible describes as going on in hell. Falling from grace is not a fall where our eternal future is so final. Because as believers we have accepted God's grace and experience it on a daily basis (hopefully), we have the opportunity to approach his throne of mercy and get right with him and start anew. Until a non-believer accepts this free gift of God's grace, their only alternative is death.

As to your first reference to the Galatian Christians, I point out your own realization that they were Christians, not non-believers, and therefore were fallen from grace because they had first experienced it and had allowed some tares among the wheat to convince them that to live by the law was more important than living according to the grace of Christ.

Instead of addressing the rest of your post, let me comment on what appears to be the overall issue. You seem to be confusing losing salvation with falling from grace. Or it's just a simple misunderstanding. Yes, we will come under some sort of righteous judgement as believers for sinning, no matter what that sin is. And there will also be a righteous judgement for non-believers either when they physically die or when Christ comes to rapture the church. But they will not be the same judgements. And I look at the judgements of God towards me (as a believer) to be disciplinary actions, to grow me and to form me more into the likeness of Christ. We have ALL already been judged and been found guilty of sin. Otherwise, as I stated in my first post, there would be no need for Christ. But because of Christ, and our acceptance of him, we will not suffer the wages of sin which is death........which would be the outcome if we lost our salvation.

I say all of these things in love, Bro. Ollie. I hope they will be received in like manner.

In Christ Alone,

Stephen
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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2004, 03:06:01 AM »

Brothers and Sisters,

Great posts - great discussion.

There is obviously a huge difference between physical death and eternal destruction. We all die physically.

The word "FALL" is a very interesting word when it is rendered from the ancient languages. In many places, "STUMBLE" would be an accurate replacement for "FALL". It's a fact that all Christians stumble more than once at some time during their lives.

There's another fascinating portion of this discussion. God deals with the sins of the lost and Christians very differently. Many lost people might appear to be wallowing in sin and disobedience most of their lives, and some of them don't appear to suffer any consequences. Well, we know what happens if they physically die in their sins without ever accepting Jesus and praying for forgiveness. On the other side of the coin, many Christians appear to be punished or chastised fairly frequently while trying to live lives that are opposite of continual wallowing in sin and disobedience. Maybe this could be compared to a LOVING FATHER trying to get HIS child to obey and do HIS WILL. However, we are NOT condemned to eternal destruction when we physically die. That LOVING FATHER we have has more and more GRACE to give us when we stumble and pray for forgiveness.

Our JUDGMENT and the JUDGMENT of the lost are two completely different events with opposite purposes. The sins of the lost will be judged for eternal destruction and condemnation. The good works of the SAVED will be judged for rewards.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2004, 05:49:40 AM »

Thanks all, I am studying all you have presented.

Can any one tie in what Christ says to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation about their outcome if they do not overcome? Are they saved if they do not overcome?


 Revelation 2:10.  "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
 11.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."


Revelation 21:8.  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Keep in mind that Christ through the Spirit is talking to these churches, "the saved".


ollie
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« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2004, 09:45:10 AM »

Quote
Thanks all, I am studying all you have presented.

Can any one tie in what Christ says to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation about their outcome if they do not overcome? Are they saved if they do not overcome?


Revelation 2:10.  "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Revelation 21:8.  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Brother Ollie,

I don't read this passage as conditional, but rather as evidential (is that a word?  It worked in spell check... Grin).  That is, I don't see it as being the prerequisite to eternal life.  Overcoming isn't the condition on which salvation is maintained, but the condition indicative of the individual saved.  There is a delicate balance here Ollie, I agree, but not one that supports loss of salvation.  I can go deeper, but don't want to confuse an already confusing situation in the minds of some who may be reading this.  If you want more of what I'm thinking, lemme know.   Smiley  Suffice to say here that that verse isn't condemning those Jesus saved for failure to obey.


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« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2004, 04:26:32 PM »

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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2004, 08:42:17 PM »

Well said Allinall,
I haev never heard it put that way, but it certainly adds a new angle and perspective to it. Thank you again. Take care.

-Aiden-
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2004, 10:46:56 PM »

Well said Allinall,
I haev never heard it put that way, but it certainly adds a new angle and perspective to it. Thank you again. Take care.

-Aiden-

Most welcome friend!  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2004, 04:41:17 AM »

QUOTE Ollie:


Keep in mind that Christ through the Spirit is talking to these churches, "the saved".

Ollie, which church do you think your in?



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« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2004, 01:10:43 AM »

I think the Bible teaches you can loose your salvation.  The bible says the following.

1 John 2
3   And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4   He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
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« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2004, 03:01:45 AM »

Freefromsin,

I'm using the same post to answer you in two different places:
_______________________________

Is this the purpose of 1 John?

(1 John 1:3)  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

(1 John 1:4)  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
__________

You might think this is a contradiction to the verses you quoted, but it isn't.

(1 John 1:Cool  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1 John 1:9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1 John 1:10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
__________

UM??? - This is the same book and chapter you quoted from. I wonder if you know what the verses you quoted mean?

(1 John 2:1)  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

(1 John 2:2)  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
______________________________

You can see the other post for the rest of it. I'll simply say that what you quoted does not come close to meaning what you think it does.

Love In Christ,
Tom







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