The Paradox of Nothing

[Krakenfürst]

CONQUEST OF LO DEBAR
(The paradox of nothing)

In Hebrew the name Lo Debar means nothing.  It is a place name whose image conjures up a desolate condition enveloped in a sense of hopelessness and its conquest is a meaningless pursuit.  What we are going to examine is the paradox of those who mistakenly pursue the belief in nothing.  While thinking they are truly wise, they are, on the other hand, grasping at less than a void, naively attributing to “nothing” the very virtues of God. For if nothing is God then God is nothing.

Perhaps the most enigmatic belief in this world is that of pure atheism.  In its most fundamental capacity it is the belief that God does not exists and nothing or no one, certainly not God, is credited with creating all things.  Requisite to that premise is the conviction that everything that does exist is simply the byproduct of random chance, somehow evolving over eons of time from nothing.  For this, atheists hold the distinction of being the most ardent defenders and many even worshippers of probably the most faith-based religion the world ever imagined.  Evolution!  

To the atheists God is just perhaps the figment of our imagination and he is no more than the result of and even bygone remnant of the evolution of our intellect.  But atheistic faith must go much farther than worshipping at the shrine of evolution and human achievement.  Evolution, even if it were possible to accept as the means by which the universe is ordered, fails miserably to offer an explanation for the existence of the universe itself.  The progression of matter and energy from one form to another is insufficient to explain how it all came to be in the first place, even if the universe was once or at numerous times collapsed to a point as small as what the “big bang” theory postulates.  Atheists, even those who do not profess to believe in evolution, are simply without options to describe how the ordering principles of life began.  Even so, without God, they have little choice except to believe that the universe and all it contains was created by and from “nothing”.  “Nothing” it seems plays the prominent role in atheism, for it must be either creator or dreamer.  For them “nothing” is maker of law, ruler of worlds and unknowable god of the entire universe.  Yet, self-defined as logical pragmatists, atheists are faced with a long list of impossible paradoxes.  While the existence of God is no easy concept, at the very least, He can be logically demonstrated to be the uncaused first cause for everything, and beyond that there is only faith that He is who He says He is.  Atheism on the other hand must desperately grasp with all of its intellect and logic to the belief that “nothing” is as great or greater than God in its creative capacity to order worlds seemingly without end into being.  To the atheist, the child of nothingness, random chance, is the singer of songs and the director of music orchestrating the beautiful tapestry of life ever progressing in synergistic fashion.  It is the blind impartial organizer and architect for the countless particles of nature, each progressing in harmony to build ever more intricate systems of life, acting both at the same time in defiance of and in accordance with the profoundly faultless laws of nature, which “nothing” created. This in and of itself is a paradox of overwhelming contradictions that proves intelligent design requires an intelligent designer.  Yet chance never created anything and chance cannot even spell "The Theory of Evolution" if given a chance to draw random letters every second for all the time that ever was and ever will be.

From the vantage point of those who believe in God it is that we see an inexplicable blindness to the truth of God’s existence.  Notwithstanding this, those who are blind to this truth are often heralded by the world as the most intelligent and logical.  Those who hold to a belief in God are frequently ridiculed as the most simple-minded and foolish.   But it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a God and creator of it all.   The only alternative, even if you accept nothing beyond aliens bringing us here or that the world rest on the back of a giant turtle, is to believe in something that is paradoxically impossible.  Therefore, it is not those who believe in God who rely on faith the most, but it is those who do not believe in God that must have a greater faith in the magical power and mystical properties of Lo Debar.  Nothing!

Something cannot come from nothing, but what an Atheist is forced to believe is that something can come from nothing and indeed nothing by conquest of nothing created everything.  That takes more faith than anything.  That, my friend, is the great paradox of nothing.  

If God can thus be logically proven to be, then would it not be wise but to try and find out more about him and who he is?   For in the end there will be no excuse for anyone, because we are all witnesses to God’s eternal power and his invisible qualities as evidenced by creation.  

Psalms 14:1-3, “The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

[Bronzesnake]

Kraken quote...

The second law of thermodynamics says that if no energy enters or leaves a system the potential state of energy will always be less than that of the initial state. Therefore an eternal universe would have died of a heat loss an eternity ago.  
 

So,

ebia response...

a.  you're happy with the second law of thermodynamics (and insist all atheists accept it).
b.  you're assuming the universe is a closed system.

 Aren't you the person who said the following...

 

It also seems remarkably ironic that you want to use science you dismiss as false when it disagrees with the Genesis account to prove the Genesis account.

 Now that is ironic!

Bronzesnake.

[Heidi]

Ebia, for being a "professed Christian" you sure do agree with the atheists. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is against me." So which is it? Which beliefs do you adhere to? Are you with or against Jesus? You can't have arguments on both sides of the fence or you are what Jesus referes to as a sheep in wolves' clothing.

[Krakenfürst]

Ebia,

You asked me to prove that something can't come from nothing and I offered it.  But you don't acccept scientific evidence apparently any more than you have faith in God.  You argue against every point of view and offer nothing in response but contrary remarks.  Ok, here is some additional proof.  I tried really hard to create something out of nothing and I could'nt do it. You give it a try just to back me up.  Then let's hear your world view.  Please explain.

I'll take a guess.  Apparently in Ebia's world the universe isn't a closed system.  Ok, but first, I think you need some basic understanding of what the word universe means.  The freaking universe IS a closed system because there is only one universe.  That's what the name universe means.  If we look way way way out there, lets say as far as 9 trillion light years away and find some more stuff we didn't see before, well wiz bang what do you know, its still in the universe.

On the other hand in Ebia's world there may be parallell universes with a portal that adds cool stuff to our universe to keep it from being closed.  I'll run with you on that for a minute.  If you take ALL the parallell universes and put them together and call them the megaverse then I'll say the same thing.  The magaverse is a closed system.  I guess there could be parallell megaverses also.  So let's take all the paralless megaverses and any other the physical space that exist anywhere and call it Ebia's brain.  Ebia's brain is a closed system.     JK, that was mean, I'm sorry!  

 

[Krakenfürst]

Ebia,

One more thing.  You say that my argument is garbage.  It's simply a paradox that says something can't come from nothing and if you believe it can then you believe nothing is as powerful as God.  This is not a statement of my entire faith.  Keep in mind that I actually do believe in someone (God) and that it is impossible for something to come from nothing unlike you who ridiculously demands proof of that.  I've had dedicated atheist give far more cogent arguments against this paradox than what you have done by simply saying prove it.

Bronzie,

Hey, since when is Christianity at odds with good science.  I find it incredible to think that some Christians actually argue with known facts such as the universe "appears" to be older than 6,000 years.  I mean c'mon it takes the light from the closest stars longer than that to reach us.  From the closest galaxy I think we are talking tens of millions of light years.  When they focused the hubble telescope on the blackest part of space what came back were images of countless galaxies billions of light years away.  On the other hand that is perfectly in line with what the Bible says.  God says we will never be able to search out the heavens.  Its a big place.  I think it's in Psalms or somewhere like that.   I find it inconcievable that God would have actually created a universe that we could one day look out and say, Wow, there's the end of that sucker, it ain't so big.  It simply shows me that HE is indeed a magnificent creator.  Also, I believe the God who created the vast array of heavens would have done so in such a way that we could also never point to it and say that is how he did it and that is when he did it.  He could have laid it all out in seven days or seven seconds for that matter just the way it is because he IS GOD and He created time in the process as well. If you need more rational evidence there are actually physicist who say that God could have created everything at a single point in space (ala BB) and it could have been spread out from there and as a result it could have actaully been only so many thousands of years but appears much older.  I don't know.  All I know is that it was done exactly the way the Bible says it was done, in six days.   He could have created rocks that actually looked like they were here forever also.  I mean what would a world full of brand new rocks and brand new elements look like anyway.  Elements with supposed half lives of millions of years that help us date rocks by virtue of their radioactive decay.  Alot of science is purely a wag.  God still created it all!

[Krakenfürst]

Rebia,

One more time for Rebia! Because nothing IS nothing it cannot possibly foster the creation of anything.  People who believe in nothing have only two choices.  They must believe that everything came from nothing or that everything is eternal which can be proven to be untrue by the laws of entropy.  That is the paradox but apparently you don't get it nor will you ever and frankly I am sick of talking to you.  With over one thousand post you must be the most annoying person on this forum.  Thank you for ruining this thread.

[Heidi]

Ebia,
When you said that being on Christ's side does not mean that you have to agree with every argument he presented, confirms my insictincts that you are NOT a Christian. You do NOT see Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life because SOMETIMES you see yourself as knowing more than he does. You also disagree with him when He said; "He who is not with me is against me." Who do you think you are? God Himself? All you have shown is your igorance, arrogance, and poverty of rational arguments. This clarifies why you have been at odds with most people on this forum who believe His words which you have admitted you do not. At least athiests are honest with their admission that they are not Christians. People who claim to be but do not "believe in the one He sent," are exactly what Jesus means by wolves in sheep's clothing. I feel very sorry for you and will pray for you. You can pray to humans like Mary which is one reason you're not saved. People who are saved believe EVERY words Jesus said.

[Gracey]

Hmmm,

Ebia said:

Being on His side doesn't mean I have to agree with every argument presented in His name, no matter how flawed.

Heidi said:

When you said that being on Christ's side does not mean that you have to agree with every argument he presented, confirms my insictincts that you are NOT a Christian.

Heidi, I think you have misread what Ebia said. Ebia didn't say she didn't have to agree with "every argument He presented", but did say she didn't have to agree with "every argument presented in His name". There's a big difference.

You do NOT see Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life because SOMETIMES you see yourself as knowing more than he does.

That's a pretty presumptuous statement. You can see inside Ebia to the heart? You can see Ebia as God sees Ebia?

All you have shown is your igorance, arrogance, and poverty of rational arguments.

At times, that statement could apply to each of us.

Who do you think you are? God Himself?

While I hardly believe Ebia needs my meager defense, I think you should look at the plank in your own eye before making a statement like that.

[Bronzesnake]

kraken...

 

Bronzie,

Hey, since when is Christianity at odds with good science.

 When did I say that?

Bronzesnake.

[Heidi]

Gracey,
Ebia makes a habit of disagreeing with many of Jesus's words. She argues for evolution, doesn't believe Him or doesn't understand him when he says not to call anyone 'father', and basically thinks she knows better than He does. I do not know better than Jesus which is why I believe his words. That is also precisely why I don't think I'm God. I look to Christ for the answers. I don't see quotes of Jesus's words from ebia. I don't doubt his words or argue against people who believe them. Ebia does this consistently. Jesus said that by their fruits, we will recognize false prophets. I believe Him. Anyone who argues against Jesus's words simply is not a Christian. You do have a habit of rescuing people, Gracey, even if it keeps them from seeing what attitudes and beliefs are keeping them from salvation. That is not helping people, Gracey. Only the truth is what sets us free. If you want to chastize me for believing Jesus's words, then by all means do so. I haven't yet seen one post by Ebia that agrees with Jesus's words. How is that my fault? I have seen many posts that agree with Jesus's words by many other Christians on this forum.

[Rich]

Correction, you've seen other posts that agree w/ YOUR interpretation of Christs words. The reason you haven't seen any posts by ebia that contain Christs words is because you ignore them or twist them, just like you do anybody elses who doesn't agree w/ YOU.
        You say you don't know better than Jesus, but looking back at all your posts you sure seem to claim His job by telling everybody where their hearts are, who is and isn't a 'true Christian', judging others, telling others they don't have the Holy Spirit, etc. It seems to be just more of your   self rightous blather to me.
     

[Heidi]

Jesus said; "By their fruits you will recognize them." I agree with Him, Rich. You dion't have to.

[Heidi]

Ebia, I've never seen a post of yours that agrees with Jesus's words. I'm not saying there might not be one amidst the myriad of posts you have written, but if there is one, it is rare. Most of your posts are arguments against people who do believe Jesus's words.

I don't even think you understand what believing Jesus is. Instead of believing Jesus's words, you change them. You change the phrase 'Do not call anyone on earth 'father' into who knows what, but it has nothing to do with those words. That's called twisting his words. You change the phrase that Jesus had brothers into the fact that he did NOT have brothers. That is changing the words in the bible. Any "interpretation" that has nothing to do with the words in the bible is not an interpretation of but twisting. I don't think you have the capacity to believe Jesus's words because you don't understand them AS WRITTEN.

[Gracey]

Ebia makes a habit of disagreeing with many of Jesus's words. She argues for evolution, doesn't believe Him or doesn't understand him when he says not to call anyone 'father', and basically thinks she knows better than He does.

If you take the time to read Ebia's posts correctly what you will see is that Ebia is one of those people who likes to "stir the pot"....not just for argument's sake, but to make us think about the correct interpretations. She doesn't argue against Jesus or His words, but against what she feels are wrong interpretations, just the same as you do.

and basically thinks she knows better than He does.

Like I said before: how can you possibly know that? Only God can know her heart, not you. You can only see her actions or what she writes and even that can't really tell you what she believes.....unless she states it outright (ie: "I believe I know better than God) and signs her name to it, you can only give your opinion, you can't know for certain.

That is also precisely why I don't think I'm God.

Telling people what they believe can sure make it look like you think you are. That was the point I was trying to make,

I don't doubt his words or argue against people who believe them.

You may not doubt His words (or at least your interpretation of them), but you do argue against people who believe them if those people don't believe them with your interpretation.

You do have a habit of rescuing people, Gracey, even if it keeps them from seeing what attitudes and beliefs are keeping them from salvation. That is not helping people, Gracey.

Ebia hardly needs rescue from me; she is quite capable on her own. What I was trying to do was show you that in order to debate effectively, you can't use some of the statements you used. They are only your opinion, which doesn't necessarily make them fact. What you should be saying is: "in my opinion, yadda, yadda, yadda....". Because, like all of us, you are entitled to your opinion. But to blatantly tell someone they don't believe is not the least bit effective.

If you want to chastize me for believing Jesus's words, then by all means do so.

That was hardly what I was trying to do, dear. I was pointing out that your opinion of Jesus' words and Ebia's opinion might be different, but you have no place to tell her "what" she believes. Maybe she believes, maybe not.

For instance, it would be no different if I said to you that "you just don't believe what the words mean, so you aren't a christian". How do I know? I don't, so why would I say that? You see? You are entitled to your opinion, and to post it, too.... It's kind of silly to try and tell people what they believe.

I haven't yet seen one post by Ebia that agrees with Jesus's words.

Jesus' words as understood by you. If your understanding of the meaning is different (and it appears that for you and she that is mostly the case) then you would feel that she doesn't agree with His words, however, I also can see that she would easily feel that you don't agree with His words, although, you think you do.

How is that my fault?

What someone else does/doesn't do is not your fault at all. Your own behaviour is your responsibility and I never said any different. Nor was I trying to fault you or criticise you for anything to do with Jesus' or His words, only the way in which you responded.

[Heidi]

Gracey, do you think that every interpretation of Jesus's words is correct? Do you think that when Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life that he meant he is NOT the way, the truth, and the life? Do you think that when he said that No one can snatch us out of his Hand that He meant that we CAN be snatched out of his hand? Do you think that when He said not to call anyone on earth 'father' He meant that we are SUPPOSED to call people on earth 'father'? Am I not allowed to stand up for what He said?These statements that Jesus said are very clear to me. Jesus had intentions when he spoke. He didn't say things, Gracey, just to talk gibberish. Most BA Christians BELIEVE HIS WORDS. They do not question every phrase He said, they just BELIEVE them. Jesus said that he speaks in parables so that those on the OUTSIDE "though seeing they do not see, though hearing, they do not understand." He was very clear about people whose eyes are blinded not understanding. Ebia and a few others on this forum have admitted they have a VERY hard time understanding Jesus's words because they QUESTION almost all of them. Jesus told us that the secret of the kingdom of heaven has been given to His believers. Do you not agree with Him either? How is it my fault that I believe His words? How is it my fault that ebia does not?

If an interpretation disagrees with ANY part of scripture then it is a false teaching. What interpretations of mine have desagreed with ANY scripture? Ebia's has. All someone has to do is to say that Jesus is the devil because that's THEIR interpretation and chastize anyone who disagrees with THEIR interpretation. That does not mean that their interpretation is correct at all!!!  I simply take Jesus at His word. How is that twisting scripture?

Gracey, when someone disagrees with Jesus. He ovbioulsy believes his opinions are right and Jesus's are wrong, is that not true?

Gracey, Jesus's words are facts, are they not? Then why do people argue with them? Ebia, as you said, like to "stir the pot" which is akin to stirring up trouble which the bible sepcifically warns us NOT to do. She creates strife when Paul says not to do that. Her motive is therefore NOT unity! There are only two reasons for such behavior. One is to create doubt in others, the other is because she simply doesn't understand scripture. I haven't a clue what she stands for, ONLY what she is AGAINST, which is not only the definition of a rebel, but someone who is not interested in fellowship. These motives are definitely suspect and NOT a fruit of the spirit which is why I said; "By their fruits you will recognize them."

I will stand up for Jesus's words and scripture. I will NOT stand against them even if people want me to. Which do you stand up for? People or Christ? Or don't you believe Him when He said that if we don't hate our mother and father more than Him, that we are not worthy of Him? Do you know Jesus's words and believe them more than the words of any human? Do you stand up for His words even if it means you will be persecuted for it?