The Paradox of Nothing

[Rich]

Heidi, you claim that you have no interpretations that disagree
w/ scripture? What about 1 Tim. 2:11-14 ?
   "Women should learn in silence and all humility. I do not allow them to teach or have authority over men; they must keep quiet. For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the women who was decieved and broke Gods law."
   Now if you follow what these verses say, we should not be hearing anything from you correct? Or just what is your interpretation of these verses, does he not really mean what he is saying? Or is this a part of scripture that doesn't pertain
to you? Are you going against scripture?
     Just love your take on who causes strife and stirs the pot
around here. Whos name is at the start of many of the threads bashing what others believe? You my dear are a hypocrite in every sense of the word.

[Heidi]

Rich,
When interpreting a passage, you have to take into consideration ALL of scripture, or your interpretation might disagree with other scripture. Wouldn't you agree? Or do you think that the bible contradicts itself? I don't. Therefore the passage you quoted has to be  seen through Jesus's words and the rest of scripture. Mary Magdelene definitely did NOT keep quiet. She passed along Christ's words just as many women do. I am not a pastor or leader in my church. The bible also says that the husband is the head of a woman. My husband WANTS me to witness and pass on Jesus's words. Should I disobey him?

[Gracey]

Gracey, do you think that every interpretation of Jesus's words is correct?

Of course I don't - even all of your interpretations are not necessarily correct.

Do you think that when Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life that he meant he is NOT the way, the truth, and the life?

No, do you?

Do you think that when he said that No one can snatch us out of his Hand that He meant that we CAN be snatched out of his hand?

No, do you?

Do you think that when He said not to call anyone on earth 'father' He meant that we are SUPPOSED to call people on earth 'father'?

What I believe is that you have misinterpreted the meaning of this scripture, but I don't want to argue with you over this passage yet again.

Am I not allowed to stand up for what He said?

Yes, of course you are, and in fact you should!

These statements that Jesus said are very clear to me. Jesus had intentions when he spoke.

Yes, it's very apparent you believe your interpretations. And yes, Jesus had intentions, but they weren't necessarily what you think they are.

Ebia and a few others on this forum have admitted they have a VERY hard time understanding Jesus's words because they QUESTION almost all of them.

I haven't seen any admission of that sort. Questioning something is not an admission of disbelief.

Do you not agree with Him either?

I agree with Him, even if I don't necessarily believe in your interpretation.

How is it my fault that I believe His words?

Well, whose fault is it then; believing in His words is not a "fault"; it is and should be the result of the Holy Spirit.

As for the rest of your post I'm not even going to bother.

I think you totally misunderstand the reason for my post; it wasn't to support Ebia's view or chastise you for yours. It was simply to help you learn the correct way to debate your views.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. What it makes it, is your opinion and your belief, which is perfectly fine. But even I, Ebia or anyone else is entitled their belief and opinion too.

I will stand up for Jesus's words and scripture. I will NOT stand against them even if people want me to. Which do you stand up for?

Yes, well you stand up for your belief in what they mean. As do I.

Or don't you believe Him when He said that if we don't hate our mother and father more than Him, that we are not worthy of Him?

..."we don't hate our mother and father more than Him"? I do believe you've misquoted.

Mat 10:37  The one loving father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And the one loving son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

That verse doesn't say anything about hating our parents. What it means is that we are to put Jesus first, above all things.

You tend to make the same quotes over and over again. Jesus said a lot of other things, too.....

Mat 15:4  For God commanded, saying, "Honor your father and mother," Ex. 20:12; Deut. 5:16 and, "The one speaking evil of father or mother, by death let him die." Ex. 21:17
Mat 15:5  But you say, Whoever says to the father or the mother, A gift, whatever you would gain from me;
Mat 15:6  and in no way he honors his father or his mother. And you annulled the command of God on account of your tradition.

Jesus tells us to honour our mother and father (yes, His words), not to hate them.

You say you believe every word He spoke....so, have you done this (literally)?

Mat 19:29  And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for the sake of My name, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Have you left all of your family behind for the name of Christ? Probably not.....neither have I, nor too many other people I know. Does that mean you don't believe His words? Probably not...because the passage means we are to put Christ first, over even our other loved ones...it doesn't literally mean to leave them.

Do you see how silly this could get?

You and I tend to agree on some things, and not on others. But I'm quite willing to let you have your own interpretation, as long as you don't put your interpretations in His mouth.

[Heidi]

I'm sorry that you don't believe Jesus's words as written, Gracey. I do. You can change the word 'father' to mother if you want since you don't understand his words. But then it would be the gospel according to Gracey and have NOTHING to do with Jesus's words. I see the gospel according Jesus because I believe His words as written. I'm sad to say that simply believing His words is not very popular with you and ebia. But you can put whatever slant you want on them. I don't. I simply believe them. It's a waste of time arguing with people who insert their own words into Jesus's statements. I do not.

[Gracey]

I'm sorry that you don't believe Jesus's words as written, Gracey.

That's too bad. You believe wrongly. Where did I state that I don't believe Him. In fact, here's a quote of my own words:

I agree with Him, even if I don't necessarily believe in your interpretation.

You can change the word 'father' to mother if you want since you don't understand his words.

That is the most incredibly obtuse statement....it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in respect to my post. Or, quite possibly you just didn't understand anything in my post, which would account for your reply.

I see the gospel according Jesus because I believe His words as written.

But you can put whatever slant you want on them. I don't. I simply believe them.

You do, huh? Well, then answer the question I posed to you. Did you leave behind all of your belongings and all of your family, as His words say? Because if you take His words literally, as you claim you do, then you would be living on the streets, unmarried and without any family at all.

It's a waste of time arguing with people who insert their own words into Jesus's statements. I do not.

Really? Well what "word of my own" did I insert into Jesus' statement? He used the words mother and father, I didn't change them at all.

Actually, this is supposed to be a "debate", not an argument. But it is certainly a waste of time debating with someone who refuses to address the issues as presented and just goes off on her own little tangent. That causes "argument" and is not debate at all.

But then it would be the gospel according to Gracey and have NOTHING to do with Jesus's words.

The issues I addressed had nothing to do with my faith, your faith, Ebia's faith, or anyone elses' faith. Why is it when you are faced with the truth you are suddenly blinded?

Instead of replying to the questions/statements you proceed to tell me what I think?

I guess you really do know it all....at least you think so.

Mat 7:2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3  And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5  Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.

Those are his words too, as are the ones below.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, do even so to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets.

[Heidi]

I definitely believe Him when he said that unless we sell everything we have and give to the poor then we cannot be his disciples. I cannot do that yet because I have too much greed in me but i very DEFINITELY agree with him!

What he means by hating our mother and father is putting Him first before any man. He uses the word "hate" because most of us are too attached to our families to put Jesus first. Therefore, we have to break away from them. He talks about LEAVING our mother and father when we get married and cleave to our spouse, which is what we are supposed to do, Gracey.  

If you do not believe Jesus's words when he said not to call anyone father then you must believe he said something else. Who knows which words you have substituted for father or call or whatever word you don't believe. But it's something!

EVERYONE believes his opinions are right or he wouldn't have them. If he does not believe his opinions, then why does he have them? If you don't know what is true and what isn't, then how can you accuse me of false interpretations? In order to do that, Gracey, you must ALSO believe you're right!

[Rich]

Yes Heidi, this is what myself and many others have been trying to tell you. You have to take ALL scripture into account. But why is it that it only applies to what you are being asked or to support your claims? When the bible says that women should be silent, you say there are other parts of scripture that support your claim that women are supposed to spread the word of God. Was Paul lying when he said this? Was he saying this to a particular group of people for some reason?
   Why when shown that Paul and others refered to themselves as father do you not understand that you have to take all of scripture into account? Does the bible contradict itself? Is there more than one way to interpret particular passages? Does everything have to be taken into account?
   I think you know the answers to these questions.But maybe your pride doesn't allow you to admit that sometimes
you might be wrong, or that your interpretation just might be
that, YOUR interpretation.
      You really do need to stop telling others who don't agree w/ you that they don't have the Holy Spirit, or that they are not true believers. Do you even understand that you've done this to some who have agreed w/ you on particular subjects?
Your not God, you have no right to judge the way you do, or to claim that others are not 'true Christians' because they disagree w/ you and your interpretation.
   

[Gracey]

What he means by hating our mother and father is putting Him first before any man.

He uses the word "hate" because most of us are too attached to our families to put Jesus first.

If you'd actually read my post you would have realized that the interpretation I gave is the same. The word "hate" is not used in Matt 10:37, though:

Mat 10:37  The one loving father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And the one loving son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

But in Luke a similar statement:

Luk 14:26  If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

So, in my opinion they both say the same thing.

I definitely believe Him when he said that unless we sell everything we have and give to the poor then we cannot be his disciples. I cannot do that yet because I have too much greed in me but i very DEFINITELY agree with him!

That's not what I asked you, although it's close. Have you left behind your family? In order to take the verse literally, you have to. So, you believe His words, but you can't yet do them...."be not hearers of the word, but doers".....

Personally, I can (and do) put Christ before my family, but sadly, I still have a roof over my head and food in my belly. So, no I am no better at it than you.

Therefore, we have to break away from them. He talks about LEAVING our mother and father when we get married and cleave to our spouse, which is what we are supposed to do, Gracey.  

Yes, well the verse I quoted you would tend to include your spouse; you must leave behind the spouse, too. Or, of course, if we want to be really picky, it only says "wife", not spouse....but I wonder what word the original writings used?

Mat 19:29  And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for the sake of My name, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Matthew 19:29 has nothing to do with leaving our parents and cleaving to our spouse. The context is entirely different. Matthew 19:29 contains instructions on how to inherit everlasting life, not the relationship between husband and wife.

If you do not believe Jesus's words when he said not to call anyone father then you must believe he said something else. Who knows which words you have substituted for father or call or whatever word you don't believe. But it's something!

This is a dead issue. Since you have no idea what I truly believe it's going to stay a dead issue. Don't assume I change any words at all. And to be frank, unless you are reading the original manuscripts of the bible, there are a lot of words that have been changed from what Christ originally said. Words are just words, meanings are something else entirely.

EVERYONE believes his opinions are right or he wouldn't have them.

Agreed

If you don't know what is true and what isn't, then how can you accuse me of false interpretations?

I know what I believe to be true; I and about 2000 years worth of Holy Spirit led christians.

In order to do that, Gracey, you must ALSO believe you're right!

Yes, I suppose I must. That's my opinion, which I'm entitled to. The same as you are entitled to yours. But, what I don't do is tell other people what they believe, or that they don't have the Holy Spirit in them.

There's nothing wrong in pointing out if someone is not exhibiting the fruits of the spirit. But since none of us exhibit them all the time you can't just jump to the conclusion that the person isn't filled with the spirit. It's just plain wrong.

[Heidi]

Rich,
You "judge" me in the same way you say I "judge" others. You have said i am lying when I believe Jesus's words instead of add, subtract or change them. Jesus said that "by their fruits you will reocognize them." I suppose you think He is lying there also. I don't think he is lying. I DO recognize them. Of course they will not agree with me because they are masquerading as sheep!

As far as women being silent IN CHURCH that also has to be taken in context of Jesus's words because IT CANNOT CONTRADICT JESUS'S WORD or the rest of the bible or it is false teaching. Do you not agree? You see the bible as a rule book just like the jews see the Torah and the Muslims see the Qu'ran as a rule book. Jesus said in MT. 15: 8-9, "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." The bible is not a rule book that you look in to see what you are supposed to do. It is the revelation of God's word to those who who have LIFE through the spirit. The Holy Spirit is our interpreter because as Paul said, the sinful mind cannot understand the things of the spirit. Picking out shoulds and should-nots from the bible are EXACTLY what the Jews did when they chastized Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. They did not understand that LOVE is what Jesus was all about, not just rules in a rulebook. When you understand that, Rich, you will be able to understand the words of Christ and the apostles. and believe them.

[Heidi]

Gracey, I very DEFINITELY have left behind my family! There is spiritual warfare going on on our grown children. I hardly correspond to my family of origin becasue i am the only one saved in the family. They do not believe that Jesus is the only way to God. We are coming from opposite places and therefore have nothing in common. In addition, our grown children, with the exception of one, hate us because, as they told us, they hate Jesus. They want nothing to do with us. It would be SO easy to agree with them just to get them to like us, but we cannot do that. You have ZERO idea the division that has been caused because of Christ. But he warned us about that, and we have remained true to Jesus. Have you done that?

As far as doers, do you have NO envy, greed, pride, lust, gluttony, sloth or anger? Have you sold everything and given it all to the poor? Have you never doubted God? My favorite part about the Lutheran church is the confession. It says; "We confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. If we say we have no sin, we are being deceived and the truth is not in us. We have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. Forgive us, renew us so that we can walk in your ways to the glory of your holy name forever." That is the truth about all of us and it will ALWAYS be the truth about all of us. Those who boast about their sinlessness do NOT have the truth in them. As John says in 1John, "If we say we have no sin, we are being deceived and the truth is not in us." That is why Christ's forgiveness is the ONLY way we can become pure before God. 'It does not, therefore, depend on our own desire or effort but on God's mercy." Period. Every time we buy a stick of furniture for our houses we are indulging in greed. Every time we overeat we are indulging in gluttony. every time we neglect to help someone we are engaging in sloth. Every time we are angry at ANYONE we are indulging in wrath. Every time we think that WE are good and perform good works, we are indulging in pride. Every time we lust after anyone who isn't our mate or covet someone's car, house, looks intelligence, etc., we are indulging in lust and envy.  I'm sick to death of self-righteous people who think they are sinless, good, and righteous!!! That contradicts most of scripture! When addressed by the rich man as "Good Sir" Jesus said "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." Jesus didn't even include HIMSELF! Yet so many people see themselves as righeous and "doers."  I am just a sinner. Salvation is given to us by Christ's blood and nothing else! The ONLY reason I'm loveable is because God loves me, IN SPITE of my sins, not BECAUSE of my GOOD works. Who are any of us to say that we are good? Do you say that you have no sin, Gracey?

[Rich]

Wrong again Heidi, i've not, nor have any of the other people
who you so boldly claim are not saved or not 'true Christians'
have ever said that YOU were not a Christian. You don't act like it most of the time, but nobody has said that you weren't.
As far as saying that you are lying, well what do you call it when someone delibretly spreads false information, based on their bigotry, hate and own personal agenda?
   I do not judge you, that is Gods job, pointing out that you're way off base, and full of false information is not judging
you. As stated before only God knows where your heart lies,
and what motives you have, i have never said that you were not a Christian, as you've done to anybody who disagrees w/ you.
   As far as the father issue goes, that also has to be taken into context w/ the whole bible. Do you agree? Or only when your back is against the wall and it suits your puspose?
  It is amazing how good you are at twisting things to fit your
interpretations, but dismissing everybody elses as bad fruit.

[Heidi]

Sorry, Rich, but it is you who are wrong. Michael said that i don't know Christ. Jesus said that we can recognize false prophets by their fruits and i believe Him. Do you? You have admitted that you have a hard time believing his words. Do you believe that phrase? You don't understand or believe him when he said not to call anyone 'father'. You don't believe the bible when it said that Jesus had brothers. Jesus said that those on the outside, though seeing will not see, though hearing will never understand. That is how I can tell a false prophet.

You don't jude me? Telling me I'm bigoted and spreading hate is not judgin? Again, you are lying.

How is believing a quote word for word, twisting? It is you who has to twist, insert your own words, and contradict the rest of the bible. Your interpretation of Christ's words about not calling anyone 'father' contradicts Paul's words because he decibes himself as the father of the gospel! My interpretation which inocrporates the difference between a title and a descriptions does not contradict either Christ's words or paul's words at all!! But since you don't understand the difference bewteen a title and a description you don't understand what Jesus means. How is that my fault?

[Gracey]

You have ZERO idea the division that has been caused because of Christ. But he warned us about that, and we have remained true to Jesus. Have you done that?

Wrong, I do have an idea; a very personal one. Yes, I am true to Christ; He is the reason I live.

As far as doers, do you have NO envy, greed, pride, lust, gluttony, sloth or anger? Have you sold everything and given it all to the poor?

Heidi, do you actually read the posts that are made? Because you would have seen where I indicated that I was no better than you in being able to be a "doer" of the word.

Have you never doubted God?

No, I have never doubted God. I may not understand all his plans, but I don't doubt that He knows what He's doing. Oh, maybe I should rephrase that; when I was a young christian (a very long time ago) I imagine that I did doubt God; probably even wondered if He were really there. But not in the past 10 years or so.

Those who boast about their sinlessness do NOT have the truth in them.

I can't think of a single person I know who boasts about being sinless. Me included.

Every time we buy a stick of furniture for our houses we are indulging in greed.

Wrong; unless you have a house already stuffed to the rafters. God said all things in moderation; not live in the streets naked and cold.

every time we neglect to help someone we are engaging in sloth.

Unless of course, we must refuse because we are already helping too many people and have no time left.

Every time we are angry at ANYONE we are indulging in wrath.

....ever hear of righteous anger?

I am just a sinner.

Like the rest of us.

Do you say that you have no sin, Gracey?

Did I say that? Anywhere? No. I didnt.

My sin has been redeemed by the cross; by the blood of the lamb. He has covered my sin; became my sin. It humbles and shames me to think that He paid the price for me.

But do I go around sinning? No. At least, not if I know I am. But when it happens (and it does) there is....glorious forgiveness.

[Rich]

Wrong again Heidi, read 1 Cor 4:14-16 carefully, Paul says that in Christ Jesus he bacame their father through the gospel, not that he is the father of the gospel. I don't know what translation of the bible your reading, but all of them i check have it the first way, even my wifes old protestant translation.
   Why do you say that Paul was refering to a specific church, and specific group of people when telling women that they should learn in silence and submission, and to remain silent? Was it because it was intended just for this group at this time, or for everyone at all times?
   Do you not understand that when Jesus told the Pharisees
to not call anyone father, that He was refering to something they were doing at a specific time and place? That He was not condemning what they taught, but the fact that they themselves did't follow the rules they expected others to follow. The whole reason for Him telling them this was because
they didn't use the rules to obey God, but to make themselves look good. They were more interested in power,
wealth, and status and it was spreading to all the people.
    Paul was refering to himself as a spiritual father(leader)  to the early Christians just as priests are our spiritual fathers(leaders) in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
   By saying that your bigoted and spreading hate, well i'm sorry if this offends you, but just look at the threads and posts you write and start.
   I believe that you are a Christian, a tad misguided, but a Christian none the less, as stated before only God really knows where your heart lies, it is Him that you will have to face someday, not me nor anyone else.
   Are you sure Michael said you don't know Christ, or did he say you don't know Christs words? Maybe he said it because your always telling everyone else they don't know Christ, and that they are not 'true Christians'. Hmm. just a thought.