What part of **** don't you understand?

[michael_legna]

I can't prove that salvation is by faith alone to someone who doesn't understand the things of the spirit just like i can't prove that Jesus exists to people whose eyes God has blinded, Michael.

Oh so you only witness to people who are already saved in your eyes?  Why bother they are already saved?  Do you only preach to the choir too?  

If you don't see the irrationality of deciding how many good works save a person, then you cannot understand why that is false. But I'll give it a stab.

I hope you mean you will try to explain the "irrationality of deciding how many good works save a person" (which I already accept by the way because I do not claim that - that is just your misrepresentation of my doctrine - in other words your lies about me).  I do not hope that you mean you are trying to prove salvation by faith alone from the words in red because you start out with a reference to Romans which is by Paul and is not the words in red.

Romans, 8:1-2, "For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." it's right there, Michael! He said NOTHING about works.

First, to be in Christ one must be a true believer and that entails following Christ which is of course works.  We know this because Christ tells us how to abide in Him.

John 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Second, this is not speaking against works of love as it clearly speaks of the law of the spirit of life (which is fulfilling the spirit of the law through love).  We know this because earlier in this same letter Paul teaches that very point.  Apparently you missed that point as it laid the ground work so you could properly understand this verse.

Rom 7:6  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul illuminates this further in 2 Cor 3:6

2 Cor 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

and back in Romans once again Paul teaches just what satisfies the spirit of the law.

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Do you know what it means when God says He desires mercy not sacrifice?

Matt 12:7  But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

It means we are to fulfill the spirit or intent of the law not the letter.

Again it is not wise to build a doctrine on one verse as it never tells the whole story.  To get the whole story we need to look at the other teachings of Paul and the rest of the writers of the scriptures and review them together.  

We are no longer condemned once we receive the Holy Spirit!!!!! Good works come FROM that! Romans, 7:15, "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do i do not do, but what i hate to do." Does that sound like a person who WANTS to sin? Paul admits right there that he CANNOT help himself. Romans, 7:24-25, "What a wrteched man I am! Who will reescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God-through Jesus christ our Lord!" Again, he said NOTHING about works and in fact, says the opposite; that he CANNOT do what is right but thanks be to Christ who saved him from "this body of death."

Yes as Christians we are aided by the Holy Spirit within us to resist, but there is still a war going on between our spiritual selves and out carnal selves.  That is why we still sin.  But that does not excuse us from these sins, we must still repent of them and confess them.

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So if because of our free will we are still responsible for you sins, the we are also responsible in part (through our free will cooperating with grace) for our good works too.

Matthew, 17, "Do not think that i have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Your verse reference is wrong it is not Matt 17 it is Matt 5:17.  Once again you interpret the verse in isolation and out of context hiding the true meaning.

Look at the continuation of the story to see

Matt 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Where the spirit and intent of the law is revealed and it is stated that we can fulfill the law (just as Paul teaches and I showed above) through works of love.

Then the note in my bible agrees with my interpretation which is that Jesus was angry at the Pharisees for obeying the letter of the law while ignoring it's spirit, which is what you do, Michael.

WHAT?  I have been saying all along that we have to fulfill the spirit of the law through love and now you want to accuse me of saying we have to fulfill the letter of the law?  You really have to stop lying about my position.

They didn't undertsand that and neither do you. My bible goes on to explain that Jesus preaches a righteousness that comes only through faith in him and in his work.

I don't care what the comments in your Bible (which you have yet had the courage to identify the translation used) says about your strange doctrine.  Show me in scripture where it says faith alone.  You cannot do it except by pulling verse out of context or interpreting them in isolation.

Romans, 8:13-14, "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if BY THE SPIRIT, you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because THOSE WHO ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE SONS OF GOD." That is my whole interpretation. It is the spirit that covers our sins, not our own effort, Miachael. It is the SPIRIT that saves us, not our own good works. It is the SPIRIT that gives us life that never goes away which makes it eternal. It is the SPIRIT inside of us that is the kingdom of heaven within us.

Yes through the help of the Holy Spirit we mortify the deeds of the flesh and if we do that we live.  This is talking about works, our works, works we do with by cooperating with grace, and because we do these works, as a loving obedience to the Spirit, we properly accept the free gift an thus have life, we are saved.  This verse supports my doctrine not yours, where is faith alone in that verse?

You truly do need to read the whole book of romans because paul talks about being saved by the spirit all over the place. Without that knowledge, you will misunderstand where good works come from and why they come.

I have read Romans completely many times.  You need to reread it and put your mind around the entire book at once instead of interpreting verses in isolation.  I agree we are saved by the Spirit as longas we cooperate with it and the grace God gives us.  But Paul also makes this clear in Romans speaking at length about the necessity of works and fulfilling the spirit of the law not the letter just as we both see Jesus teaching to the Pharisees.  Which is what I have been saying all along.

[Heidi]

Oh, so I finally quote words OTHER than the ones in red and you chastize me for quoting the rest of scripture? I'm quoting the words you're more familiar with than Jesus's words because you have made it clear that you don't believe his words, which is PRECISELY why I'm using Paul's words to back Christ's words up!

Are you interested in listening to Paul's words or just attacking me? If so, I turst that you will discuss Paul's words instead of replacing a discussion with an attack.

Michael, when you finally stop concentrating of WORKS you will begin to do them. Most of my life is spent volunteering and giving my money away. But funny thing, I don't concentrate on works. My works come from the incredible joy of my salvation and thankfulness that I am no longer condemned. Sadly, you do not have that knowledge. You do what the Muslims do; hope and pray that one day they will be good enough to get into heaven. I already have heaven inside of me in the form of the Holy Spirit and it is GLORIOUS! That's why I'm so thankful. I feel sorry for you that you don'thave that. it's a wonderful thing. But i keep witnessing precisely because i don't know whom God is calling and whom He is not. But belief comes from the Holy Spiit inside of a person and I have no power over who has received it and who has not. There comes a point when I realize how resistant some people are to the Holy Spirit and how fultile it is to keep trying to convince them of things they can't see. that's when jesus said we are throwing pearls to swine. But you probably don't believe Him there either.

We are "AIDED" by the Holy Spirit? just a little help from God and the rest comes from OUR power? Again, Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my father." I will repeat; "I can do nothing without my father." I'll say it one more time, Michael, "I can do nothing without my father,' I;m sorry that you don't believe Him there either.

You are interpreting MT., 5:17 exactly the way my bible says the Pharisees interpret it. The very fact that it mattered to you if i got the verse number right clearly shows that you don't understand the SPIRIT of the law, only the letter which was the point of this whole passage! Jesus also says in that passage to be as perfect as the Pharisees but then also says that with man it is impossible to be perfect but with God, all things are possible. He also says that the Phriasees will not enter heaven. What do you think makes us perfect before God, Michael? Us or Christ's blood?

I have shown you that we are saved PURELY by Christ's death through the passage I quoted to you in Romans 8. "For there is NOW NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ jesus..." Do you know what condemnation means, Michael? You first have to understand what that means before you can understand salvation. Salvation is the opposite of condemnation. It is the remdy for it! That phrase says it all. So does Jesus's when he said that ternal life is knowing Christ. There is NOTHING in either of those phrases about works. ZERO. But you don't believe him, so I'm showing you more. But i now clearly see that you don't believe jesus and there is honestly nothing i can do to open your eyes. Only God can do that. Until He does, this conversation is going nowhere.

[michael_legna]

Oh, so I finally quote words OTHER than the ones in red and you chastize me for quoting the rest of scripture? I'm quoting the words you're more familiar with than Jesus's words because you have made it clear that you don't believe his words, which is PRECISELY why I'm using Paul's words to back Christ's words up!

It's funny how when you want to attack my motives or intentions you make it a point not to quote what I said because then anyone could see that you are lying about what I said.

Here is what I said - I hope you mean you will try to explain the "irrationality of deciding how many good works save a person" (which I already accept by the way because I do not claim that - that is just your misrepresentation of my doctrine - in other words your lies about me).  I do not hope that you mean you are trying to prove salvation by faith alone from the words in red because you start out with a reference to Romans which is by Paul and is not the words in red.

By that I meant I hoped you intent wasn't to rise to my challenge of proving that salvation is by faith alone fromt he words in red because you were starting out all wrong - quoting from Paul as you were.

I suspected you were trying to prove that it was irrational to believe that you could decide how many good works save a person (an irrationality which I already accepted - but then I never claim you could - that claim was just more of your misrepresenting my position).

You do what the Muslims do; hope and pray that one day they will be good enough to get into heaven.

That is once again a false witness of my position.  Are you ever going to stop lying about what I say and actually respond to any of the proofs and scriptures I have referenced that express my point?

But i keep witnessing precisely because i don't know whom God is calling and whom He is not.

If God is calling and they can't refuse because they don't really have a free will (they just think they do) then witnessing makes no difference.  You doctrine is no logical and is not supported by scripture.

If we have no free will then Adam and Eve and everyone else who sinned had to sin.  In your doctrinal view of the world they had no choice.  In your doctrinal view of the world it was actually God sinning through them.  You make God out to be the author of sin.

But belief comes from the Holy Spiit inside of a person and I have no power over who has received it and who has not.

No belief comes from grace and our free will cooperating with it.

There comes a point when I realize how resistant some people are to the Holy Spirit and how fultile it is to keep trying to convince them of things they can't see. that's when jesus said we are throwing pearls to swine. But you probably don't believe Him there either.

I do believe that people can be resistant, but I believe it is them who are being resistant, not God being resistant through them to His own word.  Your doctrine is not even self consistent.

We are "AIDED" by the Holy Spirit? just a little help from God and the rest comes from OUR power? Again, Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my father." I will repeat; "I can do nothing without my father." I'll say it one more time, Michael, "I can do nothing without my father,' I;m sorry that you don't believe Him there either.

Note it says we can do nothing without the Father.  It does not say that we can do nothing once we have the Father.
Without the grace from the Father we can do nothing.  But the flip side is when we get that grace from the Father then we can do something.  When we cooperate with grace we can accomplish things.

Jesus also says in that passage to be as perfect as the Pharisees

Actually he says that our righteousness must exceed the Pharisees, and that is possible.

The Pharisees tried to live to the letter of the law which of course they could not do, so they could not fulfill the entire law as they would slip in one point and if you fail to do one point ofthe law you fail to do the whole law.

But Christ taught us a way to fulfill the entire law, by fulfilling the spirit of the law through love.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

So our righteousness can exceed that of the Pharisees.

but then also says that with man it is impossible to be perfect but with God, all things are possible.

No that verse does not say that - you are mixing up verses and context again because you are not using a Bible and out of pride are relying on your memory, which so far has let you down badly.

He also says that the Phriasees will not enter heaven. What do you think makes us perfect before God, Michael? Us or Christ's blood?

Neither, Christ's sacrifice infuses us with righteousness and makes the free gift available.  It is up to us to respond to the grace that comes from God to accept the free gift through faith and works.  Then we must endure and at the end have our works tried by fire so those which are not perfect are burnt away.  If your doctrine was correct there would be no need for the trial by fire mentioned in 1 Cor 3 :11-15

1Co 3:11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If we were made perfect by His blood there would be nothing to burn away and we would suffer no loss.  Your doctrine does not agree with scripture once again.

I have shown you that we are saved PURELY by Christ's death through the passage I quoted to you in Romans 8. "For there is NOW NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ jesus..."

No you did not!  Your interpretation was flawed and I showed you the proper interpretation of that verse at the same time clearly pointing out where yours was wrong and yet you never addressed my interpretation.  Why is that - why do you never address the answers given to you?  All you can do is parrot back the same thing you said before.  Is it because you have no answer to proper interpretation.

Do you know what condemnation means, Michael? You first have to understand what that means before you can understand salvation. Salvation is the opposite of condemnation. It is the remdy for it! That phrase says it all.

Yes I understand condemnation.

So does Jesus's when he said that ternal life is knowing Christ. There is NOTHING in either of those phrases about works. ZERO. But you don't believe him, so I'm showing you more. But i now clearly see that you don't believe jesus and there is honestly nothing i can do to open your eyes. Only God can do that. Until He does, this conversation is going nowhere.

You can't see anythign in those verses about works because you have been indoctrinated not to.  What does it mean to you to know Him?  I answered the question for you - now answer it for me.  Can you know Him with out knowing His message?  Can you truly know His message and not follow it?  Can you truly believe in Him and not follow Him?

[C C]

Michael,

YOU ARE WRONG. YOU ARE INCORRECT.  YOUR OWN PRIDE has mislead you.

The Lord tells us that neither height nor depth nor this nor that will keep grasp you out of the hands of Jesus once the Father gives them to him.  You think that YOUR hand is stronger than the hand of Jesus WHO loves you???  You think your own hand can separate you from the Love of God.  You think you can rip yourself out of the hand of Christ??  Then you have a pride issue.

You belong to Christ and you aren't going anywhere.  

peace

[michael_legna]

Michael,

YOU ARE WRONG. YOU ARE INCORRECT.  YOUR OWN PRIDE has mislead you.

No I am sorry you are wrong.

Once Saved Always Saved is an incorrect doctrine.

If you read the whole thread you will see I have offered ample proof to that fact.  To save me having to repost them I would ask you to go back and do the reading and respond to those posts I made which include the verses proving we can lose our salvation.  If you can show me where I am incorrectly interpreting the scripture I would like to see it.

The Lord tells us that neither height nor depth nor this nor that will keep grasp you out of the hands of Jesus once the Father gives them to him.  

Please reference verses when you want to claim the scriptures say something.

I assume you are referring to the following:

Rom 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This says that God will always love us.  He will love us but he will miss us if we choose to leave Him.  

You think that YOUR hand is stronger than the hand of Jesus WHO loves you???  You think your own hand can separate you from the Love of God.  You think you can rip yourself out of the hand of Christ??  Then you have a pride issue.

It is not pride to realize that God doesn't want us to be forced to love Him, that is not true love, so there is no way He is going to force us to stay if we don't want to.

I don't have to be stronger than God because He is not going to resist my leaving if I decide I want to go.  He will protect me from being dragged away by someone else, but He is not going to kidnap me.

[C C]

Micheal,

You want the Lord, its obvioius to me because all you do is spend your time talking about the Love of your life.  That Lord has stated that He wants you.  What's the problem?  You think if Satan and his principalities comes along and hands you a problem that is beyond your hardest dreams and you sleep with some woman named Bathsheba and kill off her husband and then lie about it, or something of that nature going to separate you from the love of Christ?

Micheal,  You're missing the whole point.  Those that seek will find.  you've sought, you've found.  Christ will in no wise cast you out even if you sin, you will miss Christ and you will come back.  You want each other. You were made for each other.  He has loved you with an everlasting love.  You belong to Him.  You're correct in what you wrote above, but that interpretation is for folks that really are seeking God with their lips and their hearts are far from him.  Are you saying you have saught God with your lips and your heart isn't in it?

If you heart is in it, and God's heart is in it, and He has loved you with an everlasting love, do you think He's going to cast you out.  On what grounds will He cast you out.  Do you think the cross doesn't cover what you might do wrong.  

It were one thing if your heart wasn't in it.  Is your heart in it?

Maybe you haven't understood the concept of love.

[C C]

 

Think if this.  The Bride is in love with her groom.  The groom is in love with His bride.  Jesus doesn't like divorce.  Life is hard and there will be problems.  Nobody is perfect.  And yet for those that truly love, Jesus wont let them go.

Not that Jesus is going to kidnap you.  You love the Lord.  You seek to please Him.  You can't spend a day without thinking about Him.  Storms will come and there's bound to come some trouble.  If your heart is in it, then you're saved.  That's "once saved always saved doctrine"

The problem with once saved always saved doctrine is that folks heart isn't in it.  

You know, I know so many people that are calling themselves Christians because they want to have their territry enlarged, like Jabez did.  They call themselves Christians because they want to look good in society.  They call themselves Christians for whatever selfish benefit that calling themselves a Christian can offer.  And they keep the parts of Christianity that they want to keep.  They seek out doctrines that feel good to their ears.  They talk about God all the time because it makes them feel important.  They cast out demons and heal the sick in Christ's name.  They run around doing all sorts of stuff, feeding the poor and doing whatever suits their fancy--but all it is about is themselves.  It never was about Christ and it never was about love.  It was about the honor of men and being part of a croud and promises of getting rich quick and all it boiled down to  was selfish motives.  Then they wake up one day realize that Christianity no longer is benefiting their selfish motives and they leave the church.  Were they ever saved?  Did they ever realize they weren't saved?  Well, if you're in it for selfish motives maybe not because they probably didn't sit around in the secret quiet place listening for God to talk to them.  And if they did, they were probably busy sending up petitions that were all directly related to selfishness.  Never allowing the spirit of Christ to come in and do the work required for a person to love.  That's our free will.

But in your case Michael, I just have this strong feeling that never was the case with you.  So, I think that You can't rip yourself out of the hand of Christ.  You love Him.  He loves You.  The Father promised Jesus He wouldn't lose any of the loved ones that God gives to Him.  You belong to Christ, don't you??

[C C]

There are those who can spend their whole life in a society that being called Christian benefits their own selfish motives.  They never leave the church.  Are they saved?

[michael_legna]

Think if this.  The Bride is in love with her groom.  The groom is in love with His bride.  Jesus doesn't like divorce.  Life is hard and there will be problems.  Nobody is perfect.  And yet for those that truly love, Jesus wont let them go.

Not that Jesus is going to kidnap you.  You love the Lord.  You seek to please Him.  You can't spend a day without thinking about Him.  Storms will come and there's bound to come some trouble.  If your heart is in it, then you're saved.  That's "once saved always saved doctrine"

The problem with once saved always saved doctrine is that folks heart isn't in it.  

I wish it worked that way but the scriptures tell us it doesn't.  There are multiple examples of those who are truly saved losing that salvation.

You would have seen them if you went back and read my previous posts like I asked you to but you did not want to put out the effort so I will post one again.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Here we see someone who is saved, because they escaped the pollutions of this world, they have knowledge of Jesus which is eternal life (John 17:3), they are righteous, and they are compared to be washed (baptized - washed in His blood).   Yet they still turn from His commandment and end up in a worse state then when they started.  What is worse than being as you were before you were saved?  Being damned with no chance for redemption.

They cast out demons and heal the sick in Christ's name.  They run around doing all sorts of stuff, feeding the poor and doing whatever suits their fancy--but all it is about is themselves.  It never was about Christ and it never was about love.  It was about the honor of men and being part of a croud and promises of getting rich quick and all it boiled down to  was selfish motives.  

These people who do works for these motives are not doing works of love to fulfill the spirit of the law in response to the free gift they are doing works of the letter of the law trying to merit salvation - they are not true Christians.

But in your case Michael, I just have this strong feeling that never was the case with you.  So, I think that You can't rip yourself out of the hand of Christ.  You love Him.  He loves You.  The Father promised Jesus He wouldn't lose any of the loved ones that God gives to Him.  You belong to Christ, don't you??

Yes, and I hope I never choose this world over Jesus, but I sin and fall short all the time, I just have always been quick to repent and seek forgiveness so far.  But I know I must work out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phi 2:12) and endure to the end to be saved. (Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13).

One note the reference to Him keeping all the ones the Father gave Him should not be taken out of context to apply to all believers in all times - it was specific to those of His disciples when He was on earth, so it does not support OSAS.

[C C]

Sweet Sweet Michael,

Why didn't you READ the entire chapter?  Are  you again taking scriptures out of context to prove that Jesus and you could be parted one day.  Unless you are a false teacher, who is out to get gain for yourself by learning the coming to the knowledge of Christ because by teaching it you can get gain, then that scripture doesn't refer to you.  That scripture is referring to the folks that learn all about the Bible so they can teach it so they can get gain.  Their eyes are full of adultry  . . . .  I'm posting the entire chapter and you will clearly see that Peter is referring to these false teachers that were never saved.  Clearly these people came to the knowledge of the Lord for their own selfish motives and they were never saved.    Clearly these guys know the right way because they're teaching it, but do they care to follow their teachings.  Maybe for long enough to get he benefit they need to be considered teachers.  Please read it in context of exactly who Peter is talking about.

2 Peter 2


False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[4] and despise authority.
11Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[5] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[6] and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

[C C]

   I'm sorry I called you sweet.  That bruses some men's egos.  But, you just come across in your posts as someone that's very sweet and understanding...albeit one that just wont budge on his feelings of insecurity in Christ.  That's okay.  Christ is able to keep you whether or not you are able to completely trust in His ability to keep you.

Peace

[michael_legna]

 I'm sorry I called you sweet.  That bruses some men's egos.  But, you just come across in your posts as someone that's very sweet and understanding...albeit one that just wont budge on his feelings of insecurity in Christ.  That's okay.  Christ is able to keep you whether or not you are able to completely trust in His ability to keep you.

Peace

I don't mind being called sweet I have been called a lot worse.

[michael_legna]

Sweet Sweet Michael,

Why didn't you READ the entire chapter?  Are  you again taking scriptures out of context to prove that Jesus and you could be parted one day.  Unless you are a false teacher, who is out to get gain for yourself by learning the coming to the knowledge of Christ because by teaching it you can get gain, then that scripture doesn't refer to you.  That scripture is referring to the folks that learn all about the Bible so they can teach it so they can get gain.  Their eyes are full of adultry  . . . .  I'm posting the entire chapter and you will clearly see that Peter is referring to these false teachers that were never saved.  Clearly these people came to the knowledge of the Lord for their own selfish motives and they were never saved.    Clearly these guys know the right way because they're teaching it, but do they care to follow their teachings.  Maybe for long enough to get he benefit they need to be considered teachers.  Please read it in context of exactly who Peter is talking about.

2 Peter 2


False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[4] and despise authority.
11Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[5] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[6] and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

I have read the entire chapter and did go back and read it again this time as you asked and you make an interesting point.  But it is not necessary that they were not saved just because they were false teachers.  They could have been true teachers who went astray, even you would admit this possibility is easier that losing ones salvation.

If you do not think that these false teachers were at one time saved before they became false teachers, please answer these questions so I can understand how these points are possible.

How could they have been escaped the pollutions of this world and not been saved?

How could they have known Jesus without being saved?

How could they be righteous and not be saved?


How could they end up worse than when they started if they we never saved?  

What is worse then never being saved?

[C C]

Michael,

First you have to forgive my harsh speech.  Sometimes I wish I were a little more poetic and a lot more fluent in "nice speech" so my words wont seem offensive.  I love to debate.

You have an interesting point.  Even when you read about the profit and the donkey, don't you sometimes wonder who's servant he was.

BRB

[Evangelist]

I hesitate to enter here, since ya'll are having a very pleasant interchange, but I will try to keep it that way, if you'll allow.

Michael, you said:

One note the reference to Him keeping all the ones the Father gave Him should not be taken out of context to apply to all believers in all times - it was specific to those of His disciples when He was on earth, so it does not support OSAS.

Jhn 17:20   Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

I believe that this is pretty inclusive of all believers, and not just those specific disciples, or the only those taught by those disciples.

The "kai pistueo", or "them also which shall believe", is future, active, participle, indicative of a cumulative force of future believers.  

In addition to that, to apply the principle of exclusivity in this instance would also mean application of the same principle to just about everything Jesus spoke to His disciples....which would basically mean that we would then be able to say "it doesn't apply to me"....which in turn would mean that we don't have a cross to pick up...only His disciples.

If you don't mind, I'd like to later make comment on the Peter verses you question.