What part of **** don't you understand?

[Heidi]

Michael, are you saying that God's love is conditional? What the gift of salvation means is that if someone gives us a gift and we don't open it, it is of no use to us. But that does NOT mean the gift wasn't free at all! If a person isn't saved by Jesus's death, then what was the point of it? Again, for the unmpteenth time, good works are a RESULT of the Holy Spirit, not the PRE-REQUISITE. Jesus said that none of is good. So how in the heck can we earn salvation, unless, of course, you don't believe Jesus's words.

[michael_legna]

Michael, are you saying that God's love is conditional?

No I am not.  God loves us all even those who evetually do not properly accept the free gift.  he loves us by He will miss us because those who do not properly accept the gift will be condemned to Hell.

What the gift of salvation means is that if someone gives us a gift and we don't open it, it is of no use to us. But that does NOT mean the gift wasn't free at all!

My point exactly, or to extend the metaphor if we open the gift and use it and then later get bored with it and find other more worldly things more interesting and in the end abandon or lose the gift then when we are asked at the last judgement - Where is that salvation I gave you?  We will have to tell God we don't have it any more.  This is what happens in the story of the guests at the wedding who does not have the wedding robe and is cast out into the street with the dogs.  (Matt 22).  I don't know if you are aware of this but the custom in Israel was for the father who is throwing the wedding feast to provide the robes.  So the beggar (who was brought off the street when the other guests turned him down) had no excuse other than because he neglect this free gift and did not use it.  The wedding is of course the Church's marriage to the lamb (salvation), the father is of course our Father (God), the wedding robe is of course the robes we are given washed in Jesus blood (righteousness) and the beggar is us.

If a person isn't saved by Jesus's death, then what was the point of it?

First we know a person isn't saved just by Jesus death or else everyone would be saved.  So Jesus death was to make salvation possible, it ushered in a new economy of salvation where we understand God wants mercy not sacrifice, that we recognize that trying to fulfill the letter of the law in a legalistic way cannot merit us salvation, instead we are to fulfill the spirit of the law through love as Jesus taught us.  This is true belief in Christ and it entails works of loving obedience.

Again, for the unmpteenth time, good works are a RESULT of the Holy Spirit, not the PRE-REQUISITE.

And for the umpteenth time, yes good works are the fruit of the spirit working through us, but only as we allow it to happen and cooperate with His grace.  You have to be careful not to confuse grace and faith.  Grace precedes good works so good works cannot precede grace and/or be a prerequisite.  But faith does not necessarily precede good works (though sometimes it does as we continue to do good works after we belief of course).  A good example is repentance (or turning ones life around).  This must precede faith as one cannot believe in a savior until one realizes that one needs a savior and that cannot be until one recognizes that we are sinful and repent of that sin.  That repentance comes after grace and before faith and it is a good work (something good that we do through our own free will).

Jesus said that none of is good. So how in the heck can we earn salvation, unless, of course, you don't believe Jesus's words.

But this is a not literal statement that we can do no good becauseyou will note that he included Himself in that group.  The Son is a separate person from the Father in the Trinity and if only the Father is good (which is what a literal interpretation requires) then the Son is not good and we know that is not true.  So a strict literal interpretation is not what is intended.  So even though by nature we are not capable of good, once we are given the free grace of God we can do good.  The first thing we do when our free will begins to cooperate with this grace is to seek God and that in and of itself is a good thing.

[C C]

 

I'm so happy that Catholics are believers in Christ and that Christ's spirit is able to rest on them, that I don't mind that they think they have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.  In actuality, Paul's whole point of the Free Gift in my interpretation is that Christ wanted us to come to Him in love which requires freedom.  This weekend I had to sit and listen to someone give me this spill about human behavior and why it is so.  Its sickening and disgusting the arguments that non-believers make in order to justify their behavior.  Not only that but the SPIRIT that non-believers have is almost death to the soul because it sounds so hopeless and hateful and yet they're convinced that they're so right.  Actually, that Bible says it is a dead soul and it feels like it because it is so filled with hate and hopelessness, it almost drowned me.  I'm sure if I didn't have Christ in my  heart it would have reached out and killed my spirit.  How miserable it is to sit next to and listen so someone that's so hurt and hateful, and angry and hopeless that suddenly it feels entirely like death.?  I'm not sure but that's what it feels like, but it was heartbraeking to have to listen to it and know that there's no way to fix it.  God will have to do that.  Their only hope is to find Christ which is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.  I'm sorry but many Catholics have the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE living inside of them, whether or not they think they have to work out their salvation in fear and trembling.  When you deal with non-believers and then come to the Christian forum and start dealing with different denominations, then oh my gosh, our disagreements seem so petty.  I still have harsh words against folks that try to get power over other folks by using the word of God, and what not and having people living out a religion and not have the Way the Truth and the Life inside them is still worth arguing over.  The point is do we have Christ's life living inside of us?

Lets celebrate that we have Life.  I do believe in the Free Gift interpretation so that no one will boast.  But I also beleive in working out our salvation in fear and trembling because every single day of our lives we have choices.  I know we can't lose our salvation, but we can stop saving souls by getting our Word choked out of us by the cares of this world.  When we die to Christ we can bear much fruit or we can bear no fruit.  What does it say about folks that bare no fruit, they'll be chopped down and thrown into the fire.  Does it mean that they weren't "Saved"?  Yes, then it does mean that.  But you could go through the whole motions of church and learn a whole bunch and call upon the name of the Lord, and then have the Lord tell you "I never knew you." because you weren't saved.  So much then for a free gift if you didn't really take the gift.  In that case, hey, maybe there's is a point to working out your salvation in fear and trembling, which is making sure you actually reach out for the free gift.  The opportunity to do that is a free gift.  And all of the saved will never be perfect on this earth.  Christ's knows our hearts and our weaknesses.  One other thing I know is that Christ forgives us for not knowing everything or understanding everything.

Peace

[Heidi]

Michael,
How can someone get bored with the Holy Spirit if is brings incredible joy, peace, love and thanksgiving inside him? Or haven't you felt the fruits of the spirit yet? Ever since i received the Holy Spirit, worldly pleaures ALWAYS cause conflict in me because the Holy Spirit CONVICTS me, which is what Jesus said it will do. Or don't you believe Him?

How can someone POSSIBLY lose their salvation? It's impossible! Salvation means that one's soul is saved. His soul is either saved or it's not! If he thinks he loses it, then that means that means his soul is NOT saved. Which is it? It's one or the other. That's what the term salvation means! It's just like someone saving us from death in a raging river, for example. He either saved us or we died.  He can't have both saved us and NOT saved us. It's impossible.

What you're saying, Michael, is that WE SAVE OURSELVES and that God and Jesus aren't as powerful as we are. In Romans, Paul said; "It does not therefore depend on our own desire or effort, but on God's mercy." I believe him, you do not. The notion that we can do ANYTHING without our Father is the sin of pride and comes from the devil. It also disagrees with Jesus's words when he said; "I can do nothing without my Father." You are giving credit for people's salvation to men, not God which is pride, and disobeying the first 2 commandments. God is MUCH STRONGER THAN WE ARE.  Whatever leads me to humility and not pride is from the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave COMPLETE credit for everything he did to God. You give it to men!!

[michael_legna]

Michael,
How can someone get bored with the Holy Spirit if is brings incredible joy, peace, love and thanksgiving inside him? Or haven't you felt the fruits of the spirit yet?

I have felt the gifts of the Holy Spirit but so had those who are discussed in the scripture verses below and they lost their salvation.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Ever since i received the Holy Spirit, worldly pleaures ALWAYS cause conflict in me because the Holy Spirit CONVICTS me, which is what Jesus said it will do. Or don't you believe Him?

Yes but sometimes as the above scriptures show people need more than conviction, sometimes they ignore the voice of the spirit and rebel.  Nothing in the verse to reference through your own paraphrasing rather than quoting it exactly says anything about the conviction of the spirit keeping you from falling away.

Why is that you refuse to quote God's word in your posts anyway?  Is it because you know if you lay your personal interpretations side by side with God's word everyone will see that you have gotten it wrong?

How can someone POSSIBLY lose their salvation? It's impossible! Salvation means that one's soul is saved. His soul is either saved or it's not! If he thinks he loses it, then that means that means his soul is NOT saved. Which is it? It's one or the other.

No those two options are not the only two just because you say they are.  Salvation is a process.  One can also truly be initially saved but not endure and not acheive final salvation which is determined at the last judgement.  Why else would God tell us that we must endure to be saved and be given the crown of eternal life or don't you believe Him?

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jam 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

That's what the term salvation means!

Perhaps you would like to show me in scripture where salvation is defined as you say it is.  Or do you require people to take your word over God's for definitions too?

It's just like someone saving us from death in a raging river, for example. He either saved us or we died.  He can't have both saved us and NOT saved us. It's impossible.

Your logic is once again flawed just like it was in your last analogy.  We can be saved from the raging river and truly be saved and yet ten minutes later slip right back in and drown.  So we lose our life that was saved at one time.  So no it is not impossible.  I suggest that you stop trying to develop your own logical approach to this (you are not any good at it) and read the verses from the word of God that people have referenced for your consideration.

What you're saying, Michael, is that WE SAVE OURSELVES and that God and Jesus aren't as powerful as we are.

No I am not saying that - where did I ever say anything like that.  You are just putting words in my mouth.  I have always said that God saves us through His grace that was made available through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and that we accept that free gift through a living faith one that cannot be separated from works.  What we are talking about is the acceptance part of the relationship.  If we could save ourselves then we would not have needed the fgift to be offered and that is not anything I have ever said was true.  

In Romans, Paul said; "It does not therefore depend on our own desire or effort, but on God's mercy." I believe him, you do not.

I do not know what translation you are quoting from or even if your are using one and not just quoting your own paraphrase but the word "depend" does not even exist in the New Testament (neither does the word "effort") so I cannot find the verse you are supposedly referencing to show you the true meaning of it.  If you are going to reference scripture to bolster your case t elast provide the verse reference so people can check if that verse really exists or that is says anythign like you claim it does.  I believe God's word but unfortunately I have learned not to believe yours.

The notion that we can do ANYTHING without our Father is the sin of pride and comes from the devil. It also disagrees with Jesus's words when he said; "I can do nothing without my Father."

I never said we could do anything without the Father - you are once again twisting my words to suit your purpose.  I said we had to have grace before we could even seek God.  But our works and our faith do come from us in the sense that our free will must cooperate with that grace.  We have a free will - God gave it to us - or don't you believe Him?  If we didn't have to cooperate with grace then we would all be saved - but we are not all saved - or don't you believe Him.

You are giving credit for people's salvation to men, not God which is pride, and disobeying the first 2 commandments. God is MUCH STRONGER THAN WE ARE.  Whatever leads me to humility and not pride is from the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave COMPLETE credit for everything he did to God. You give it to men!!

No I am not giving credit to men for our salvation and I have never said anything like that either.  You need to stop lying about people on this forum it is unchristian.

[Heidi]

Michael,
I'm afraid i can no longer argue with someone who disagrees with so many of Jesus's words yet calls himself a Christian. Jesus said that his true sheep CANNOT be snatched out of his hand. You disagree with Him. Jesus said that many will call him 'Lord" yet will NOT enter the kingdom of heaven. He also said there will be many false prophets. A false prophet is not a true prophet. Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice."  Any "former" Christian who is obviously NO LONGER listening to Jesus's voice which would obviously not make them His true sheep, now would it? Otherwise, you're saying that Jesus is lying. If you truly want to be a Christian, Miachael, then you need to go to HIM and his words for eternal life, rather than to other human beings who have as many interpretations as there are people in the world. It is no coincidence that the catholic defenders on this forum don't understand what a persoanl rrelationship with christ means, disagree with so many of his words. You guys have been taught that in the church. It's not your fault but again, if you really want to know the truth, go to JESUS and HIS words!

[michael_legna]

Michael,
I'm afraid i can no longer argue with someone who disagrees with so many of Jesus's words yet calls himself a Christian.

Actually the Holy Spirit told us to "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" 1 Peter 3:15  But I understand if these Bibel verses I am referencing are hitting to close to home making you uncomfortable with your doctrine and need to avoid the issue.  I just hope someday you have th courage to read the word of God that people put in front of you.

Jesus said that his true sheep CANNOT be snatched out of his hand. You disagree with Him.

No I disagree with you interpreting us walking awya as us being snatched from His hand.  The two are different and it is not in your power to make them the same.

Jesus said that many will call him 'Lord" yet will NOT enter the kingdom of heaven.

Notice how conveniently you cut God's word into pieces, the verse goes on to say that those who will go to heaven are those who do the will of His Father.  This means that your denial of works playing a role in salvation is contrary to scripture.  I am sorry you do not believe Him to the point of actually delete His words to make a point.

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice."  Any "former" Christian who is obviously NO LONGER listening to Jesus's voice which would obviously not make them His true sheep, now would it? Otherwise, you're saying that Jesus is lying.

Once again to prove your point you cut God's word into pieces so you can ignore the parts that don't agree with your doctrine.  This verse you reference goes on to say that His sheep follow Him.  It is not enough to hear His word anymore than the hears of the law will be justified, but you have to follow Him just as those who are doers of the law are justified (Rom 2:13).


John 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If you truly want to be a Christian, Miachael, then you need to go to HIM and his words for eternal life, rather than to other human beings who have as many interpretations as there are people in the world.

I do go to His word - I am not the one making claims without supporting them with scriptures - you are.  I am not the one misrepresenting the other persons case - you are.  I am not the one quoting part of a verse when the rest doesn't support my case - you are.  I do not rely on other peoples interpretation I offer my own, you on the other hand are afraid to have you interpretations appear next to God's word.

It is no coincidence that the catholic defenders on this forum don't understand what a persoanl rrelationship with christ means, disagree with so many of his words. You guys have been taught that in the church. It's not your fault but again, if you really want to know the truth, go to JESUS and HIS words!

You should try not to judge other peoples understandings and worry more about your own.

[Heidi]

So what Jesus really meant according to you, Miachael, is that we CAN be snatched out of His hand? How can the Holy Spirit in  us drive out the Holy Spirit? Or do you think that we and the devil are stronger than God's spirit? You obviously put more faith in the devil than in God. There are 2 forces in this world, God and satan. We are either coming from one or the other. NONE of us is bigger than either one. What is God is God's and what is the devil's is the devil's. The devil is the ruler of our flesh and God is the ruler of our spirit. Once the Holy Spirit enters us, it has VICTORY over the devil in us. That is why NO ONE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF HIS HAND. But those who try to 'muster up" on their own without the Holy Spirit do NOT have the power of the holy Spirit to keep them in the vine. They, as Jesus said; "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Do you even have a clue to whom Jesus is referring in those passages?

And what do you think the will of His father is, Michael? Jesus tells us what the work of God is; "to believe in the one He sent." That means that we believe that Jesus is telling us the truth because he IS the truth. Jesus did not say that a list of good works is the way to heaven. He said HE IS THE WAY TO HEAVEN, only HIM. Good works COME Him, not from our sinful nature!

Again, Michael, those who NO LONGER listen to His voice OR follow Him CANNOT be His true sheep, now can they?

[michael_legna]

So what Jesus really meant according to you, Miachael, is that we CAN be snatched out of His hand?

Why do you insist on misrepresenting peoples positions?  Does it make you feel good to lie about them?  No I said we are not snatched out of His hand we are allowed to walk away because God gave us free will and does not want to force us to love Him as it would be a meaningless love.

How can the Holy Spirit in  us drive out the Holy Spirit? Or do you think that we and the devil are stronger than God's spirit?

The Holy Spirit in us does not drive us out it is out free will choice.  

You obviously put more faith in the devil than in God. There are 2 forces in this world, God and satan. We are either coming from one or the other. NONE of us is bigger than either one. What is God is God's and what is the devil's is the devil's. The devil is the ruler of our flesh and God is the ruler of our spirit. Once the Holy Spirit enters us, it has VICTORY over the devil in us.

Your mistake is in assuming there are only two forces at work here the Holy Spirit and Satan.  There is a third our free will - a gift from God - we can still use after we are saved.  That is why we still sin after we are saved.  if it was just the Spirit in us and Satan you would be right but that is not the case so you are wrong.

But those who try to 'muster up" on their own without the Holy Spirit do NOT have the power of the holy Spirit to keep them in the vine. They, as Jesus said; "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Do you even have a clue to whom Jesus is referring in those passages?

Yes He is saying that those who do not abide in Him will be fruitless because they do not have God's grace by which to accomplish good deeds.

But lets see how do we abide in Him?

John 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Oh yes by keeping His commandments and I have shown you before that means fulfilling the spirit of the law through love.

And what do you think the will of His father is, Michael? Jesus tells us what the work of God is; "to believe in the one He sent."

Once again you base your doctrine on one verse in isolation.  Lets look at another to give us the full story instead of requiring God to express His entire plan and wisdom in one small verse.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now since the verse you reference John 6:29 and the verse I reference 1John 3:23 cannot contradict each other so the extra part in 1 John 3:23 (because it is true) must be an extension or supplement to John 6:29 so John 6:29 is true but not complete - so you formed your doctrine off of an incomplete statement - so your doctrine has to be wrong.

Again, Michael, those who NO LONGER listen to His voice OR follow Him CANNOT be His true sheep, now can they?

Yes but note this time you include the whole verse which includes following Him.  That is more than just faith that is works.  Following Him is required and it is works.  Faith alone does not save - so we have to accept the free gift through works too.

[Nickolai]

Just because a gift is freely given doesn't mean it's freely recieved.  If I put a stack of $100 bills on a table and have a sign that says "Take one bill if you want it".  That still requires the person recieving the money to take it. (S)he doesn't get the money unless (S)he takes it.  

[Heidi]

Michael,
You do not realize that you are saying that our "free" choice is more powerful than the Holy Spirit. My you have a high opinion of your power! I believe God is MUCH more powerful than all of us. You obviously do not. This is the crux of our disagreements. I know my interpretation is correct because it's from humility, a fruit of the spirit. Yours is from the sin of pride. Until you receive the Holy Spirit, you're right, you do not have victory over the devil inside you and can therefore walk away form your beliefs at any time. No wonder you have such little faith that you're saved! Jesus said he would never abandon me and he never has. He brings me closer to Him everyday. You, on the other hand, take credit for becoming closer to God instead of giving it to the power of the Holy Spirit. That is again, the sin of pride. But I do not think you are as powerful as you would like to think you are. Sorry.

[michael_legna]

You do not realize that you are saying that our "free" choice is more powerful than the Holy Spirit. My you have a high opinion of your power! I believe God is MUCH more powerful than all of us. You obviously do not.

No - what you believe is that God gives us a gift (free will) but then in effect takes it back by fighting against that gift.  Do you really think God is that dishonest with His gifts?

This is the crux of our disagreements. I know my interpretation is correct because it's from humility, a fruit of the spirit.

You never offer interpretations (you seldom even offer scripture references though you claim to value scripture so much) so I cannot say whether they are from humility or not.

[Heidi]

You are either flat out lying when you say i don't quote scripture, or your blind. One or the other. I quote JESUS's word all the time! You value the apostle's words more than Jesus because you rarely quote jesus. I don;t even think you know his words! You certainly know the catholic doctrine better than the gospels!

How did I say that God takes back the gift? It is you who are saying that when you say we can lose our salvation! Talk about twisting words! The way free will works is just like a parent/child relationship. It's a paradox. A parent creates an environment in which his children feel 'free" to make their own choices. They think they are acting freely when in reality, it is the parent who creating the environment which allows him to do so. We, as parents, can step in any time and change his options. That is the way God treats us. This interpretaion combines both the statements that Jesus makes that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (Another scriptural quote). "God hardens whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy." (Another scriptural quote). "It does not, therefore, depend on man's own desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Another scriptural quote). These appear to indicate that we have no free will. Yet jesus also says that we have no excuse which appears to say that we do have free will. Do these statements contradict each other? By your interpretation, they do because your interpretation EXCLUDES the first 3 quotes. My interpretation incorporates ALL those quotes. All any of us can do is respond out of our own understanding which is what the bible means by free will. But that does not mean that God is not in charge of whether we come to Him or not. All that means is that we are UNAWARE of God's intentions just like a child is unaware that his parents know what he is up to. God is in control of the universe, Michael, not you or me.

[michael_legna]

You are either flat out lying when you say i don't quote scripture, or your blind. One or the other. I quote JESUS's word all the time!

I have pointed out repeatedly (alomost in every post of yours where you either parphrase the word of God to make it fit your doctrine (which I don't count as quoting Jesus) or you make verses up out of thin air (again I don't count this as quoting Jesus) or you are using some non-standard translation which doesn't come close to accepted translation (which I have asked you about and you refuse to answer) or you quote snippets of verses without even listing the book and verse number so no one can verify where that came from (which I don't count as quoting Jesus).  The few times you do quote Him you don't attempt to offer the interpretation of the verse your doctrine relies on out of fear that it will be obvious to all who read it that the interpretation doesn't match the scriptures intent.

You value the apostle's words more than Jesus because you rarely quote jesus. I don;t even think you know his words!

I very definitely value Jesus words most of the list of things one must do to accept the free gift (that I posted and you ignored) were Jesus' words.  In fact I often challenge people and indeed right now challenge anyone (including you Heidi - are oyu up to it - do you believe Him?) to prove the idea of salvation by faith alone from the words in red alone.

But as for valuing the Apostles words equally with Jesus' I would say I am guilty of that - because the words of the Apostles in the New Testament are not their own but those of the Holy Spirit who inspired them.

You certainly know the catholic doctrine better than the gospels!

Its easy since they are based on the Gospels and their is no conflict or contradiction between them.

How did I say that God takes back the gift? It is you who are saying that when you say we can lose our salvation! Talk about twisting words!

I was talking about the gift of free will that you imply God takes back by forcing us to stay in His hand.  God doesn't force us to do anything and if we try to leave He will not fight us to stay.  So we are not more powerful than God when we leave His hand and we are not being snatched away either.  We are leaving of our own free will and God is letting us go because He does not want us to love Him by force as that is not a true love.

The way free will works is just like a parent/child relationship. It's a paradox. A parent creates an environment in which his children feel 'free" to make their own choices. They think they are acting freely when in reality, it is the parent who creating the environment which allows him to do so. We, as parents, can step in any time and change his options. That is the way God treats us. This interpretaion combines both the statements that Jesus makes that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (Another scriptural quote). "God hardens whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy." (Another scriptural quote).

You don't have a good understanding of free will if you think it is just that we "feel" we are free.  That would be a phony freedom and a phony gift is that the type of gifts you think God gives.  You are verging on deterministic predestination now and if that is the case then nothing we can do affects our salvation, we are either going to be saved or damned and NOTHING we do makes any difference, not faith , not works, not witnessing NOTHING.  If that is your doctrine it makes God out to be arbitrary and a tyrant.

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's own desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Another scriptural quote).

I recognize the first two though  you were too lazy to provide the book and verse references.  They are John 6:44 and Rom 9:18 but this one is not one I can find in the scriptures as the words depend and effort do not exist in the New Testament.  I asked you about this in a previous post so you could direct me to the verse you claim to be quoting so I could explain its meaning in the context it is found, but you did not answer me.  This is typical of your ploys - quote badly mangled verses from some non-standard translation without providing the book and verse so the context cannot easily be researched so as to make it as hard as possible for others to review if your doctrine matches God's word.  If you want to reach people you should be doing everything possible to make it easy for people to check your doctrine against God's word not the reverse.

These appear to indicate that we have no free will. Yet jesus also says that we have no excuse which appears to say that we do have free will. Do these statements contradict each other?

No they only contradict your interpretation of them based on your understanding of free will and your taking the verses out of context.

By your interpretation, they do because your interpretation EXCLUDES the first 3 quotes. My interpretation incorporates ALL those quotes. All any of us can do is respond out of our own understanding which is what the bible means by free will. But that does not mean that God is not in charge of whether we come to Him or not. All that means is that we are UNAWARE of God's intentions just like a child is unaware that his parents know what he is up to. God is in control of the universe, Michael, not you or me.

Sorry but to say that God give us free will butit is not really free (that He is pulling all the strings behind the scenes and we only think we are free) makes scripture and God out to be a liar.

Free will and predestination are a difficult and complex topic and one that deserves its own thread and if you want to start one I will be glad to participate, though I have seen you reason and doubt you are up to it.  But for now I will only summarize that man has free will and who is or is not predestine to be saved is a reflection of what God knows not what God does.  He knows all things in all times because to God there is not time, that is an artificial concept made up by man.  So God knows who will and will not properly accept the gift and thus determined (it only seems pre-determined to man who thinks inside of the time dimension) who will and will not be saved based on this knowledge.  Man is still free to act inside of the time dimension and do as he pleases.  God does play a role in hardening those who are unrepentantly going down the wrong path or helping those (showing mercy) who try and try but screw up so that they with His help eventually find their way.  That is all those verses are discussing and they fit in fine in my doctrine and interpretations.

[Heidi]

I can't prove that salvation is by faith alone to someone who doesn't understand the things of the spirit just like i can't prove that Jesus exists to people whose eyes God has blinded, Michael. If you don't see the irrationality of deciding how many good works save a person, then you cannot understand why that is false. But I'll give it a stab. Romans, 8:1-2, "For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." it's right there, Michael! He said NOTHING about works. We are no longer condemned once we receive the Holy Spirit!!!!! Good works come FROM that! Romans, 7:15, "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do i do not do, but what i hate to do." Does that sound like a person who WANTS to sin? Paul admits right there that he CANNOT help himself. Romans, 7:24-25, "What a wrteched man I am! Who will reescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God-through Jesus christ our Lord!" Again, he said NOTHING about works and in fact, says the opposite; that he CANNOT do what is right but thanks be to Christ who saved him from "this body of death." Matthew, 17, "Do not think that i have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Then the note in my bible agrees with my interpretation which is that Jesus was angry at the Pharisees for obeying the letter of the law while ignoring it's spirit, which is what you do, Michael. Theydidn't undertsand that and neither do you. My bible goes on to explain that Jesus preaches a righteousness that comes only through faith in him and in his work.

Romans, 8:13-14, "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if BY THE SPIRIT, you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because THOSE WHO ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE SONS OF GOD." That is my whole interpretation. It is the spirit that covers our sins, not our own effort, Miachael. It is the SPIRIT that saves us, not our own good works. It is the SPIRIT that gives us life that never goes away which makes it eternal. It is the SPIRIT inside of us that is the kingdom of heaven within us. You truly do need to read the whole book of romans because paul talks about being saved by the spirit all over the place. Without that knowledge, you will misunderstand where good works come from and why they come.