So few will be saved

[Heidi]

Works come BECAUSE of salvation! Works without faith and love are meaningless!! How can one be thankful, joyous, hopeful, peaceful if he knows he isn't saved??What do you think PRODUCES all of those fruits of the spirit, Sojourner??

[sojourner]

Heidi,

No, by Grace, works comes from faith, and faith brings salvation. That living faith IS salvation, not the result.

[nChrist]

Heidi,

No, by Grace, works comes from faith, and faith brings salvation. That living faith IS salvation, not the result.

Oklahoma Howdy to Sojourner,

It really doesn't make any difference how many times you say it, works has nothing to do with salvation.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3616

The Gospel of the Grace of God is not a works Gospel. Grace is an undeserved GIFT from God. It wouldn't be a gift if one had to pay for it. The facts are simple, Jesus Christ paid the entire price on the cross. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved without any works except evil. Salvation is not on the installment credit plan where it is repossessed if you miss a payment of works. Salvation is immediate, the second that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

It's really very simple.

Salvation is (a GIFT) by GRACE, through FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST JESUS! Jesus Christ finished the work for our salvation on the cross. Read and study the link I gave you and you might understand. Faith is belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[sojourner]

Blackeyedpeas,

Salvation is immediate, the second that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

Depending how and for whom your first clause is referencing, I can say that it is immediate and WITHOUT any acceptance at all. You have confused what Christ did which was objective and respective of man was involuntary.  

It's really very simple.

It is, expecially when we have 2000 years of it being the same as lived, believed and experienced versus your opinion of it.

Salvation is (a GIFT) by GRACE, through FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST JESUS! Jesus Christ finished the work for our salvation on the cross.

Salvation, Grace, Faith, they are all a Gift, your very breathe is a Gift. If what you say in the quote above and joined with this one would make you a universalist. That is Christ's objective work on the Cross was for mankind. All men have been saved, All men have been made alive. They all now can be called by Christ during their lives and for all generations hence.
On the other hand, you could be a Calvinists who sticks to a psuedo-calvinistic idea that Christ died ONLY for those who will be saved. The saving of men then is absolute and we are mere pawns  and you would have no idea if you were one of them or not. Faith than has nothing to to with it because the call is irresistable and forordained to occur.

Either you are one of these two, those, I believe, are the only two that so believe.

If you are trying to articulate the Gospel as the Apostles received it, then it is thus.  Man lays hold of that saving Grace (justified) by faith.  It is man's willful response to the free Gift of Christ's work. It is what separates you from all of mankind.  However, faith is an active, life-long commitment. I can even go along with faith alone, if you use the definition of the Apostles. They didn't need to add the alone because faith IS active, it is evidenced by good works, 'works of righteousness' and that has nothing to do with earning which is of the law or referencing Christ's work which has been done for all.
You can continue to believe your positon but it is not the Gospel once given. That is clearly evidenced in the living history of that faith.

Faith is belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

That is precisely correct. You accept it by faith and then it is a life-long sinful struggle that the new creature(spirit) wars against the old (flesh) and there is never a time in this life that you can say you are 'saved'. That does not mean you cannot have full confidence or even doubt your faith, but it is not what mostly protestants proclaim with this OSAS theory.

[JudgeNot]

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

Depending how and for whom your first clause is referencing, I can say that it is immediate and WITHOUT any acceptance at all. You have confused what Christ did which was objective and respective of man was involuntary.

WITHOUT ACCEPTANCE of Jesus Christ as God - THERE IS NO SALVATION.  Your rebuttal makes no sense.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

It is, expecially when we have 2000 years of it being the same as lived, believed and experienced versus your opinion of it.

Sojourner - I see no "opinon" in BEP's answer.  It is taken directly from scripture.  Dozens of verses.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

Salvation, Grace, Faith, they are all a Gift, your very breathe is a Gift.

Now you make some sense.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

If what you say in the quote above and joined with this one would make you a universalist.

Huh?    

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

That is Christ's objective work on the Cross was for mankind.

It was for mankind. ALL mankind who accept Him!

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

It is what separates you from all of mankind.

Blackeyedpeas is no more "separate than you or me - nor does (near as I can tell) he pretend to be.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

If you are trying to articulate the Gospel as the Apostles received it,

 Huh?  What 'other way' is there?

 

faith is an active, life-long commitment.

Yes, faith IS a verb; which is why someone who has it is active in the faith.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;

You can continue to believe your positon but it is not the Gospel once given.

Huh???  

Sojourner - if you ask me, you are arguing because you will argue with anything.

[sojourner]

Judgenot,

Depending how and for whom your first clause is referencing, I can say that it is immediate and WITHOUT any acceptance at all. You have confused what Christ did which was objective and respective of man was involuntary.
 
WITHOUT ACCEPTANCE of Jesus Christ as God - THERE IS NO SALVATION.  Your rebuttal makes no sense.

That may be because you don't understand salvation. Here are the verses dealing with Christ's objective work and to who recieved:
Roman 5:15-19; John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Dan 12:2; II Cor 5:18-19; I Cor 15:20-22;
Col 1:20, there are more.

This is also the meaning of the Incarnation. Do you believe in the Incarnation.

I see no "opinon" in BEP's answer.  It is taken directly from scripture.  Dozens of verses.

Quoting scripture is not the problem. It is in the interpretation of those versus. That is where it is opinion because it is what you think it is or should be, not what has been taught and believed from the Apostles. Or are you really saying that it doesn't matter, or that you do have a different belief but are just using the Bible as a basis.

If what you say in the quote above and joined with this one would make you a universalist.
 
Huh????    

By now I hope you are getting the drift here. See all the texts in the first quote above. Christ's work was objective. It applies to all men. He saved all men, reconciled Himself to the world. The physical world as well as mankind, ALL, ALL.. ALL will be raised, whether saved or unsaved. That is the work of Christ on the Cross.  For ALL. Now if you say these are all saved personally,. then you are a universalist.  There is not part whatsoever of man in this work. It is involuntary. All men get whether they want it or not.

That is Christ's objective work on the Cross was for mankind.
 
It was for mankind. ALL mankind who accept Him!

What religion teaches that. Calvinism! Then only those who are able to accept him.

It is what separates you from all of mankind.
 
Blackeyedpeas is no more "separate than you or me - nor does (near as I can tell) he pretend to be.

Now do you see how and why one needs to separate themselves from ALL MEN. MANKIND in regard to man's response to the free gift of salvation which is TO ALL MEN.

If you are trying to articulate the Gospel as the Apostles received it,
 
  Huh?  What 'other way' is there?

Well, right not the Almanac gives approximately 40,000 different ways. Which one is yours?

faith is an active, life-long commitment.
Yes, faith IS a verb; which is why someone who has it is active in the faith. {/quote] That IS SALVATION of individual man. His response.

You can continue to believe your positon but it is not the Gospel once given.
 
Huh???  

Which one of the 40,000? It is not the original.

I have no problem with you believing anything. But if you are going to claim it is the original teaching of the Gospel, you are will need to show historical evidence other than one's opinion of what you think the Scriptures might mean. I will defend the original.

[nChrist]

Sojourner,

It does not appear that you read the posts on the link that I gave you. I'm not a Universalist, a Calvinist, or any other "ist" or "ism". I'm an extremely plain person who is already a member of THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. My beliefs are very simple and can be summarized easily: The Gospel of the Grace of God.

A saved and born again child of God can be deaf, dumb, blind, and paralyzed and still be safe and secure in the hands of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Salvation does not require works because the work of Jesus Christ at the CROSS is already finished. Jesus was crucified, died, arose from the dead, and is the Living Lord and Saviour for all who believe (have faith) and ask HIM to come into their hearts as their personal Lord and Saviour. Jesus Paid It All, All To HIM I OWE. My good works are not done for salvation or to maintain salvation, rather they are my attempts to show the love and appreciation I have for my Lord and Saviour and what HE did for me. A child of God in a coma is just as saved as I am.

I have 100% assurance of my salvation. How about you Sojourner? Salavation is simple enough for small children to understand, but it appears that you have considerable confusion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Gracey]

It applies to all men. He saved all men, reconciled Himself to the world. The physical world as well as mankind, ALL, ALL.. ALL will be raised, whether saved or unsaved.

All will be raised, but unto what?

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Mat 13:49  So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50  and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It's true that the gift of Christ was/is/will be for all men, but we must believe in that gift in order that we may be raised with Christ to eternal life (is that the "salvation" you are referring to?)

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Joh 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
 
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Joh 6:47  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me has everlasting life.

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Jo 5:10  He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.
1Jo 5:11  And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:12  He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13  I have written these things to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Believing....we must take an active part in this.

Works do not add to our salvation, if we do nothing more than believe on him we are still saved.

But the bible tells us that if we have Christ as our Saviour it is He who stirs us to the fruit - I could quote all the usual "fruit and works" verses, but the work most important to God (I feel) is that given in the "Great Commission", which I won't quote here, but....

2Th 2:16  Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, who has loved us and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17  comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

Heb 13:20  Now may the God of peace (who brought again our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant)
Heb 13:21  make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Gracey

Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. <----- I seem unable to follow this one, sometimes  

[sojourner]

Blackeyedpeas,

Salvation does not require works because the work of Jesus Christ at the CROSS is already finished.

Yes indeed, but you still fail to see the whole picture. It is finished for all men. You don't seem to correlate what happened in the fall to the reason for salvation in the first place. If Adam plunged ALL of mankind into death. Eternal death physically and spiritually then Christ is needed to overcome that death in both ways. He is the Second Adam. That is all Adam, ;right, not just half, or one-quarter. All men were justified by Christ's death.(unless you believe that only some men are born with a sin nature and we have a lot of perfect Adams as well) the Universe was justified. That is why we say his Creation was justified. For man it meant putting body and soul back to gether and all were made alive THROUGH Christ. All will rise in the last day, believer and unbeliever. Some to righteousnes,. some to damnation. Hell is a livable eternal state.

If you want to be raised to righteousness, THEN, you must avail yourself of that free gift. God does not cram it down ones throat.  We do this by believing that Christ died for us and by faith we take for ourselves God's free gift.  We do this by Faith.
Faith is active and we must by Grace and our desire strengthen that faith, perfect that faith. You may not call this salvation of the believer, but that is precisely what the Apostles taught.
You can believe any simplfied gospel you desire but it is not the faith once given by the Holy Spirit for all time.
Again, you have given no historical evidence that anyone other than possibly some in the last few centuries believed this and even this is doubtful, because I didn't believe as you  do when I was a protestant which was only a 400 year old gospel.

I have 100% assurance of my salvation. How about you Sojourner? Salavation is simple enough for small children to understand, but it appears that you have considerable confusion.

That may very well be because it is your salvation. Salvation based on your very own interpretation of what it should be. If there are 40,000 varieties, I'm sure some are very simple and one doesn't need do anything even though the whole Bible speaks to the contrary.
I have the Apostolic Gospel understood. What I don't understand is yours when you are trying to base it on the Bible. I don't know when to leave certain versus out in order to make yours viable.

Gracey,

All will be raised, but unto what?

Here is another verse that I missed earlier which clearly shows the difference: I Cor15:46.
In answer to your question, obviously you didn't read the texts in the post above from whence your question comes: John 5:29.

It's true that the gift of Christ was/is/will be for all men, but we must believe in that gift in order that we may be raised with Christ to eternal life (is that the "salvation" you are referring to?)

I don't think you still have it separated yet. All men will be raised, The world was reconciled, all humanity. All were given life through Christ. We are personally saved with a life IN Christ. That distinction is also made in Romans  5:8-10. Paul is separating all men from believers in these verses. We are reconciled by His death, we live by His Life.

Works do not add to our salvation, if we do nothing more than believe on him we are still saved.

Depends on what part you are speaking of. Christ's objective work, NO, your response, YES. By your understanding you and the Devil are saved the same way.
Gracey, all the texts you use after the above quote I used, all refer to man's personal, individual salvation. That is precisely what salvation IS.  It is not a result of salvation but a working out of our salvation. It you don't have these works of righteouness your faith is dead and you are unsaved if you persist in having no fruit. Your branch will be cut off and thrown into the fire.

[Gracey]

It you don't have these works of righteouness your faith is dead and you are unsaved if you persist in having no fruit.

I have the fruit of the spirit precisely because I am saved. But it is not I, my own self (which I have died to) which produces those fruit, it is He who is in me.

By your understanding you and the Devil are saved the same way.

Hardly. I suppose I should add that believing man has the spirit; a gift, while satan shall never have that, even if he believes.

I don't get it; what part of John 3:15-16 don't you understand? It seems very clear, to almost everyone I know.

The things you speak of are not the cause of our salvation, but the effect of salvation. Works do not add to our salvation, they just add to our reward in heaven.

peace
Gracey

[sojourner]

Gracey,

Hardly. I suppose I should add that believing man has the spirit; a gift, while satan shall never have that, even if he believes.

That is not going to help either. The Holy Spirit does not force His will over yours. If you desire Him, if you align your will with Gods he will stay and be your source of support. But if you turn against Him, He can and does leave.

I don't get it; what part of John 3:15-16 don't you understand? It seems very clear, to almost everyone I know.

Very clear. It is an ironclad assurance of God towards me. Where is my iron clad assurance toward Him. Why must I instead persevere.

The things you speak of are not the cause of our salvation, but the effect of salvation. Works do not add to our salvation, they just add to our reward in heaven.

Not add, IS.
If it was in fact past tense. that we are actually completed and saved, first we would be perfect. We could no longer sin. The rest of the NT would be superflous.
Unless you don't believe that God created man in His Image. Part of that is his will, his freedom to make choices, the greatest being whether he accepts Christ or not and then stays in the faith. If he has no will I can see your point. But then the Bible wouldn't even be necessary. We would all be doing precisely as our strings are pulled by God.
However, we have wills. It is our duty, our responsibility, our created goal to become perfected in His Image, the Divine nature. II Pet 1:20. That is the goal, the reward.
This is the same work Adam was required to do before the fall.  He and we are required to accomplish the same thing.  We are given the same choice as Adam. Stay with the program or not, and if not, or change course at any time, not saved in our case.

The whole of Pauline corpus is a rousing urgency unto actions on the part of believers. To be declared just by faith is just the beginning. It makes it possible for man to make the journey by Grace through faith. To be saved means to become healed, restored and gain our personhood and union with God through Christ. Why would God declare you perfect when He didn't do this for Adam. It was the purpose of Adam's creation. It is all about communion.
There is absolutely no way that we can dwell fully in Him and still sin. It just is not the reality of living in this world. That is the fallacy of theories of 'simple mental accent of faith upon believing. It is the fallacy of OSAS.
There are no glib guarantees. It really calls for a lot of faith, a lot of trust, a complete casting of ourselves upon His mercy. A wholehearted effort to uphold our end of the relationship as He gives us the ability as we grow in faith.
There are several parables that depict this journery quite clearly. The talents, the virgins.
None of these 'works' is a result of faith. It is faith.  
There is a whole litney of texts which shows that our journey is our salvation.
What would there be to endure?  Why abide?  Why run the race to claim the prize. You've been declared the winner without even entering the race.

[JudgeNot]

Where is my iron clad assurance toward Him. Why must I instead persevere.

Brother sojourner, you're making it too hard.  Relax.  Take a deep breath.  Look to the Lord and smile in His assurance.
"My yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Nothing can be more comforting than these words from Christ.
 
And now, one of the oldest clichés ever – just for you:
Let go, let God!
 
Sure – it is our nature to question.  God created us a curious bunch, but it’s almost as if you’re taking this to the point of questioning His validity.
May He give you answers (and rest!).  
JN

[JudgeNot]

Otherwise, get thee behind me Satan.

Hmmm.  I guess now I know what you really think.  

I'll not bother you (I didn't know I was) or respond to you again.  Your way or no way, huh.  I'll take Jesus' way.
Riddance - may Jesus touch your heart.
JN

[nChrist]

Sojourner,

Make that a second from me. We can agree to disagree. One would have to ignore most of the New Testament to believe in salvation requiring works, and that would certainly include the favorite books quoted from the works and self-righteousness folks. You have to actually read those books before you can understand them.

I've wasted my time, but I'll leave you with one parting thought:  if you are looking for self-righteousness, you don't have any.

Tom

[Reba]

There is a whole litney of texts which shows that our journey is our salvation.

Acts 4:10-12

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
KJV