Knowing Christ's words

[Gracey]

Heidi, do you understand what verbatim means? Perhaps that's our problem:

it means to repeat something word for word. (which has nothing to do with belief). That's something the Pharisees would have done - repeated the scriptures without belief.

All of us can repeat the scriptures word for word (using the bible, naturally) but what good will that do?

I see that you've said

My point is that if you believe his words first, then understanding will follow.

I suppose that's a possiblity. However, I certainly didn't "believe" the passages I quoted in my previous post, until I understood them.

It is possible, you know, that understanding doesn't fall on us all in the same way. Try to make room for that thought. We, each of us, learn in a different way. It seems to be that the spirit teaches us in the way which we learn best.

Gracey

[Heidi]

That's why the greatest enemy of God is unbelief which comes from satan. But the more we read His words, the more obvious they will become. They will leap out at us clear as a bell and we then wonder why we didn't see the obvious before. That is simply Satan trying to deceive us. But we can't battle Satan on our own. All we do is to keep asking God to bring us into belief for He is the only one who gives us the power over the devil. The Holy Spirit in us is battling the devil for us. That's because without the Holy Spirit, our father is the devil. We are either ruled by Satan or the Holy Spirit. Again, Jesus said; "The work of Gos is this; to believe in the one he sent." That is ALL we have to do. He does the rest!

[blainefabin]

The wine and bread represent Jesus's body. Jesus was sealing the covenant of His body, given for us. He had not died yet so no one could eat His flesh and drink His blood while He was alive. Since none of his words contradict each other, when taken in conjunction with His words that He is the bread of life, all who eat His flesh and drink His blood will inherit eternal life, the bread and wine are to be done in remembrance of Him. Receiving His body inside us in the form of the Holy Spirit is literally eating His flesh and drinking His blood. I was accused of not passing on Christ's words. Again, I believe every word He said.

how can you say you believe every word he said when you just explain away every word he said? you say that the bread and wine were not his flesh and blood but he says it was. you say the body in us is the holy spirit but i cannot find scriptural support for this anywhere. show me where in scripture it says the body of christ is the holy spirit. otherwise you are a false teacher.

mike

[blainefabin]

Gal., 2:20, "For I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." Read the last several pages of the gospel of John, Nick. "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." Habbukuk said, "Woe to the person who says; 'wood come to life!'" You cannot get life from a worldly ceremony, or worldly items. Christ is alive and well and dwells in the bodies and hearts of His believers. All you have to do is BELIEVE HIS WORDS. If you want to believe ALL of his words, you also have to believe him when he said; "I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that came down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I AM THE LIVING BREAD THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD, HE WILL LIVE FOREVER. THIS BREAD IS MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD." He goes on to say, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and i will raise him up at the last day." Once you BELIEVE this, you will understand what communion represents. You have to take into consideration ALL of his words, not just one passage.

precicely  you have to take into account all his words, which is why the concept of the real presence  has been taught from the beginning. every thing you just posted only support the real presence in the eucharist. oh verbatim.

mike

[Heidi]

I see nothing wrong with the Eucharist as long as one REMEMBERS that it is Christ's body in the form of the Holy Spirit that is inside of us. The ceremony alone does not give us eteral life as some people think. It is simply a remembrance, as Christ said, of God living in us.

[blainefabin]

I see nothing wrong with the Eucharist as long as one REMEMBERS that it is Christ's body in the form of the Holy Spirit that is inside of us. The ceremony alone does not give us eteral life as some people think. It is simply a remembrance, as Christ said, of God living in us.

of course the ceremony alone does not give us eternal life. if one goes through the ceremony without believing they may be in danger of hell.  

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

as for your claim that christ means his spirit when he says body, i thing this would be a very wrong tradition to start.

[Heidi]

I take it you dont blieve Him when he said; "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink his bloood, you will have no life in you." Or, "I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Or "For I no longer live but Christ lives in me." Or, "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." Or, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." A child would read this passage and see that Jesus said we have to eat his flesh and believe it. Adults would say, "no he must means something else." But those of us who have Christ in us know exactly what he means!

[blainefabin]

I take it you dont blieve Him when he said; "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink his bloood, you will have no life in you." Or, "I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Or "For I no longer live but Christ lives in me." Or, "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." Or, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." A child would read this passage and see that Jesus said we have to eat his flesh and believe it. Adults would say, "no he must means something else." But those of us who have Christ in us know exactly what he means!

heidi

first these verses are separated by a lot of  scripture. please keep your verses in context. as to you your initial question yes i believe...."I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink his blood, you will have no life in you."  he defines what his flesh is..."I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." and he defines both at the last supper... take this bread..it is my body, take this cup it is my blood.

thus i believe the real presence of the eucharist just like christians have from the day christ initiated this sacrament.

on the other hand there were people that could not accept what christ was saying in john 6. apparently you are one of them?

mike

[Heidi]

But there's one huge idfference between our understanding. You believe the wafer IS His body instead of REPRESENTING His body. Habbukuk said; "Woe to the person who said; 'wood come to life!" We cannot get life from worldly food, only the Holy Spirit. I believe his words when he says 'I am the bread of life"! I also believe Paul in Gal. 2:20, when he said; For it is no longer I who live but CHRIST WHO LIVES IN ME." Was he lying? "I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." What do you think the Holy Spirit is? Why is it synonymous with the Holy Ghost? At the last supper, Jesus instructed his disciples to "do this in REMEMBRANCE of me." Tell me, Blain, what does eating bread and dinking wine indicate we should remember? Why eating and drinking? Jesus made a huge point of telling us that we have to eat HIS flesh and drink HIS blood, LONG before the last supper. I've known He is in me since the day I received the Holy Spirit. I've already eaten His flesh and drunk his blood. Communion only reminds me of that, which is Jesus's whole point.

[Rich]

There is a huge difference alright, we believe it is His body, because that is what He said it is. He didn't say this symbolizes or represents my body, He said "this IS my body".
Why is it that your so dead set on the whole father thing, you keep saying "because He said it", but when He say's "this IS my body", you think He means it symbolically?
  All the Christians from the time of Christ knew what he meant, and all have followed this teaching up until the last
few hundred years, when certain individuals and their followers
decided they knew more than everyone else, including the early christians.
          If he didn't mean it literally, then why didn't He stop
the followers who left due to it being too hard to accept? He could have stopped them and said " i only mean this symbolically" but he didn't did He? When Nicodemus misunderstood Jesus, He corrected him, when the samaritan women misunderstood Him at the well, he corrected her didn't
He? Why not in this case? More than likely because He meant
what he said.
               It shows your misunderstanding by your statement
"we can not get life from worldly food", we know that it is not
worldly food, but the body and blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. It couldn't be any clearer what He meant by all this, but again this is what happens when things are taken out of context.

[blainefabin]

But there's one huge idfference between our understanding. You believe the wafer IS His body instead of REPRESENTING His body. Habbukuk said; "Woe to the person who said; 'wood come to life!" We cannot get life from worldly food, only the Holy Spirit.

look if you want to start a tradition based on this personal interpretation you are 100 percent free to do so. i will continue to put my trust in Christ by listening to those he sent to teach.

I believe his words when he says 'I am the bread of life"! I also believe Paul in Gal. 2:20, when he said; For it is no longer I who live but CHRIST WHO LIVES IN ME." Was he lying? "

no he was not lying? how could you even get that from these 2 verses that are not even related.

I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." What do you think the Holy Spirit is? Why is it synonymous with the Holy Ghost?

i haven't a clue what you are talking about? the fact that christ is in us has nothing to do with whether or not the eucharist is real or not. you are hodgepodging scriptures together in typical fundamentalist fashion.

At the last supper, Jesus instructed his disciples to "do this in REMEMBRANCE of me." Tell me, Blain, what does eating bread and dinking wine indicate we should remember?

well think about it heidi. get your bible out and look at what it says in that passage of scripture. what does he tell them to do? eat this bread and drink this cup. why? because it is his body and blood.

Why eating and drinking? Jesus made a huge point of telling us that we have to eat HIS flesh and drink HIS blood, LONG before the last supper.

sure he did, just like he made a big point about his death and resurrection before it happened.  he made a point about it because he was letting them know that he was the lamb for sacrifice. he was letting them know the truth.

I've known He is in me since the day I received the Holy Spirit. I've already eaten His flesh and drunk his blood. Communion only reminds me of that, which is Jesus's whole point.

sure he is in you, that is not in conflict with the eucharist. i was baptised before i had the eucharist. the spirit, i believe came into me then and i had not had the eucharist. i think that in the end you may just have some misconceptions about sacraments and the eucharist in general.

mike

[Heidi]

So you DON'T believe His words when he said; "I am the bread of live. He who eats this will never die." He wasn't holding bread in His hand when He said that, Rich. Do you or do you not believe Him when He said; "Unless you eat the flseh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"? Yes or no.

[Rich]

Yes Heidi i do believe Him. That is why i believe that it Is the body and blood of our Savior. Where do you get that i don't believe His words, it is you that is not reading everything He and the apostles said about the institution of the eucharist and what it means.
  ST. Ignatius(110 AD)
 " heretics abstain from Eucharist and from prayer, because
they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ".
 St. Justin Martyr (150 AD)
   " not as common bread nor common drink do we receive
these; but as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by
Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus".
    St. Cyril of Jerusalem (350 AD)
"He himself, therfore , having declared and said of the bread, '
this is my body' who will dare any longer doubt? And when He Himself has affirmed and said 'this is my blood', who can ever hesitate and say it is not His blood?"
 ST. Cyril again,
     " Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master's declaration,
the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ".
  So Heidi i believe every word He said about this, it is you that apparently does not. Why do you insist on telling everyone what they think and believe, and i'm not talking about just the Catholics either.
         Again i'll ask you to please take some time to study
what the early Christians taught and belived,(and i'm not talking about the ones from 1500-present). You'll find it doesn't really resemble what you've been led to believe Christianity is. There are volumes of writings from more of the Saints and early Church fathers, much like those above and from the same time frame, check them out. Hmm, but maybe
that's why you don't want to, it doesn't mesh w/ your interpretations.

[Heidi]

Do you also believe His words when He said; "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drinkg his blood, you wil have no life in you?" He had no bread and wine when He said that. Do you believe His words when He said;" On that day, you will realize that I am in the Father and you are in me and I am in you"?

[Nickolai]

 St. Ignatius(110 AD)
 " heretics abstain from Eucharist and from prayer, because
they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ".

And Heidi, You should probably know that Ignatius learned dirsctly under St. John. (The writer of the Gospel of John)