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Heidi
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« on: May 04, 2004, 04:22:51 PM »

I think some of the greatest misinterpretations of the bible come from not knowing Christ's words first. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost of Christ inside us. It is the "counselor, the spirit of truth." It enables us to understand Christ's words. Without it, we just pay lip service to other human beings as having the truth. Every true believer should scrutinize Christ's words first and in LIGHT of his words, we will understand the bible. That is what Paul did. ALL of his writings came from the Holy Spirit and the disciples. He understood the Torah THROUGH the Holy Spirit which contradicted the Jews who did not have the Holy Spirit. If people understood the Holy Spirit through Christ's words, they wouldn't take phrases out of the bible that contradict Christ's words. There would be NO contradictions in the bible. There are many teachings that contradict Christ's words. I don't have any loyalty to any worldly church. Therefore, when i read Christ's words, I BELIEVE THEM. Once i believe them, then I know that I cannot lose my salvation. Other phrases that people quote WITHOUT remembering Christ's words, will be misinterpreted. The teachings of the church CANNOT supercede Christ's words, otherwise we are worshiping the church instead of Christ. Therefore, it is paramount that all true believers know Christ's words BETTER than any church doctrine. Only then will we be able to discern truth from fiction.
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His_child
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2004, 11:28:05 AM »

Everyone will probably disagree with each other at some point and time. We're not carbon copies of each other.
Just because someone doesn't agree, it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not in them.

Jumping to the conclusion that someone is not saved or not listening to the Holy Spirit because they are in disagreement with you makes it pretty hard to carry on an intelligent conversation.
It makes it hard for you to learn from others and to teach them.
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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
Heidi
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2004, 12:49:40 PM »

If an interpretation disagrees with any scriptural then the interpretation is faulty. All of scriputre has to agree. That's why it is so important to know Christ's words first. Then the bible will make complete sense to us if it does not contradict Christ's words. A good example is the belief that one can lose his salvation. A person may find a passage in the NT that sounds like we can lose our salvation. But when taken in light of Christ's words, that "no one can snatch them out of my hand," in order for all of scripture to agree, then there must be another meaning. The meaning that does agree with all of scripture is that the true sheep will listen to His voice and cannot be snatched out of His hand. The men, however, who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me", can be snatched out of his hand. There are true teachings and false teachings. True teachings do not contradict any scripture.
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His_child
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2004, 02:02:47 PM »

If an interpretation disagrees with any scriptural then the interpretation is faulty. All of scriputre has to agree. That's why it is so important to know Christ's words first. Then the bible will make complete sense to us if it does not contradict Christ's words. A good example is the belief that one can lose his salvation. A person may find a passage in the NT that sounds like we can lose our salvation. But when taken in light of Christ's words, that "no one can snatch them out of my hand," in order for all of scripture to agree, then there must be another meaning. The meaning that does agree with all of scripture is that the true sheep will listen to His voice and cannot be snatched out of His hand. The men, however, who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me", can be snatched out of his hand. There are true teachings and false teachings. True teachings do not contradict any scripture.

How do you know what you believe is really factual?

How do you know that someone hasn't fed you a pack of lies somewhere?

You're willing to slam others for their beliefs but you are unwilling to teach them anything. Why is this?

If you want to teach someone something- or learn something- first of all you need to find out why people believe what they believe and then find a common ground in your beliefs and theirs and go from there.

Slamming others without getting to know them isn't going to help you or them learn anything.

Now, you must have not seen my question to you in the thread "About Protestants" so I'm copying and pasting it here for you:

Heidi and others who support OSAS, please explain 2 Peter 3:9-17:

The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The Heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and Godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the Heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new Heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with Him.
Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means Salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contian some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scripture, to their own destruction.
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

BTW Heidi- just because we disagree on this issue, doesn't mean that either one of us doesn't have Salvation. It just means that one or both of us might be getting confused or quoting from the book of 2 Opinions.
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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
sojourner
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2004, 11:14:24 PM »

Heidi,
Quote
The teachings of the church CANNOT supercede Christ's words, otherwise we are worshiping the church instead of Christ.
I am going to assume that you will agree that the word 'worshipping' and believe in' can mean the same. If so, you are contradicting yourself from the other post on a differenct topic when you stated that you believe in the Apostles Creed. In that Creed is a statement that you "believe in One, Holy, Catholic Church.  If you do in fact believe that then you are worshipping, believing in a Church.  Nothing wrong with that, because that is something believed by all earlier Christians from the beginning. After all, if one believes in Christ, one also believes in the Church. They are the same, are they not, scripturally.

Therefore, the words of the Church can never supercede Christ, can they?

Also, what does II Peter 1:20 mean to you?

Also,  I Timothy 3:15?

Quote
A good example is the belief that one can lose his salvation.

You say this is Christ's words. That you mean they are scriptural, right?
If so, can you substantiate that from sources other than your own interpretation. For example can you show from history,. for example, that all Christians believed this belief since the beginning, including the Apostles. If you can then you will have been able to substantiate that it might be All Truth, for all to all for all time which Christ gave to His Apostles and they in turn taught many in the first century and subsequent Christians would have believed and practiced this faith. If you cannot, then it may very well be false. After all, the Truth has not changed. Christ did not give His Apostles one Truth and another one for us in the 21st century.
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Heidi
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2004, 11:43:42 PM »

Ah, no, I didn't say that I believed in the Apostle's creed. I said most people know the Nicene creed and can recite it with their eyes and hearts closed. I also was referring to people who verbalize words and don't know the difference between reciting from the heart or reciting by rote.

Believe in which church? They all disagree with each other. The true church is Christ inside of us. The worldly churches are where people gather together to worship Christ.

My beliefs come from the bible, specifically from Christ's words, unless you believe His words are a pack of lies. What have i said that is not scriptural?  There are many catholic beliefs that are NOT scriptural like calling the pope "Holy Father" venerating Mary, calling Priests Father, adorning the church with Gold and silver, and i'm sure many more that the catholic church made up which neither Christ nor Peter or Paul endorsed. I believe that Jesus is the only way to God. Not through Mary, Peter, Paul, etc. I believe that all of our power comes from God as Jesus said when He said, "I can do nothing without my Father," not from men which is why glorifying any man is not scriptural. I agree with Him that we should not call anyone on earth 'father' as a title because we only have one Father in heaven. My beliefs come from Christ's words. What in His beliefs are confusing to you? What in my beliefs contradict His words? Anything?

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His_child
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2004, 01:02:17 AM »

Heidi-
How come you won't answer my post #3 in this thread?
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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
Heidi
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2004, 07:55:04 AM »

What do you mean by unwilling to teach them anything? On another thread, a poster said, "good teaching." I simply keep bringing people back to Christ's words, not the catholic church or idol worshiping. I have explained why I think Jesus's words are true MANY times. Yet only ONE catholic defender has tried to explain what Jesus means by not calling anyone 'father'. I have been slammed for saying we should worship Christ alone and not have false Gods before Him. I have been slammed for scriptural teaching and quoting Jesus's words. In fact most of my quotes have been Jesus's words alone whereas most of the quotes from people who have been bashing me for believing Christ's words have NOT been from His words alone. Can you point me to ANYTHING I've said that is not scriptural? If so, instead of slamming me, please point out why where Jesus said to pray to His mother and call the pope our Holy Father, or even made ANY hint that we should do so. If I get another attack instead of a specific reference from CHRIST alone why we should pray to Mary and call the pope our Holy Father, I will ignore it.  
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ebia
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2004, 08:08:44 AM »

If so, instead of slamming me, please point out why where Jesus said to pray to His mother and call the pope our Holy Father, or even made ANY hint that we should do so. If I get another attack instead of a specific reference from CHRIST alone why we should pray to Mary and call the pope our Holy Father, I will ignore it.  
So now it's only the "words in red" that count, and the rest of the Bible doesn't count?

It's becoming quite amusing to watch you dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2004, 08:24:32 AM »

In order for the rest of the bible to be interpreted correctly, ebia, it is IMPERATIVE that we know Christ's words first. Idol worshiping is NOT just bowing down to a statue, it is PUTTING OUR FAITH IN SOMEONE ELSE'S INTERPRETAION OF THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF CHRIST'S! That is POEPLE worshiping for it is them to whom you go for the truth. No wonder there is so much confusion as to what is true. You're going to people before God which is what I've been saying all along! The Holy Spirit is the Counselor, the spirit of truth, Jesus 's words. Any time we believe some else has the truth instead of Christ, we are NOT putting Jesus first in our lives, but other people. I expect atheists to disagree with this, but Christians who supposedly worship Christ alone? This only confirms my instincts about who you worship, ebia. You almost sounded disappointed that you even had to READ His words much less understand them first. Do you just recite His words by rote or do you believe them? How can you believe them if you don't know them? Do you even think? Only Jesus has the complete truth, unless you believe ANYONE else BUT Jesus has the truth. In that case, it does not good to read His words because you won't believe them anyway. But I KNOW that He has more truth in Him than any of the apostles and they would be the first to admit that. Again, reading the rest of the bible WITHOUT knowing Christ's words, only leads you to worship the apostles as having the truth before Christ.  That is worshiping them instead of Christ! THAT IS WHY jESUS SAID;  "I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father (and not the pope) except through me". It appears that you're the one whose hole is so large you can't even fit Jesus's words into them!
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sojourner
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2004, 09:39:59 AM »

Heidi,

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Believe in which church? They all disagree with each other. The true church is Christ inside of us. The worldly churches are where people gather together to worship Christ.

Well, not quite.  To be more precise, the Holy Spirit resides in each Christian. That then makes it possible for us to reside in Christ, His Body, of which He is its Head. That True Church is not divided. Can Christ be divided, thus it has always been One. If you really mean that all churches are worldly, then they cannot be Holy as is His True Church.  I know what you mean, but you need to be more precise in your use of terminology.

Quote
My beliefs come from the bible, specifically from Christ's words, unless you believe His words are a pack of lies. What have i said that is not scriptural?  
Actually, it is not Christ's words or the words that are printed by others led by the Holy Spirit. However, it is the understanding and the interpretation that you have put on those words, which are not aligned to what the Apostles taught regarding them.

Quote
There are many catholic beliefs that are NOT scriptural like calling the pope "Holy Father" venerating Mary, calling Priests Father, adorning the church with Gold and silver, and i'm sure many more that the catholic church made up which neither Christ nor Peter or Paul endorsed.
Not wanting to get into an argument on every one but there is a vast difference in using the term Father and Holy Father. I don't agree with the idea of the Pope either but that is the difference of adding the word Holy. I will address this specific  word in my other post to you.
Speaking of Mary, we venerate her, and you used the correct word here, because she is the epidomy of obedience. She is also the mother of God, since Christ is God.
Did Jesus specifically tell the Apostles or the early Church that we should not have gold and silver in His Church. He worshipped in the Temple in His day and never once said that when the Church is established that your buildings should not have all this gold like the temple?  Even the Tabernacle of old had gold all over it. Is  there something innate about matter that you dispise?
It is in Scripture, it's just what the interpretation is, and in your case it is mostly you.

Quote
In order for the rest of the bible to be interpreted correctly, ebia, it is IMPERATIVE that we know Christ's words first. Idol worshiping is NOT just bowing down to a statue, it is PUTTING OUR FAITH IN SOMEONE ELSE'S INTERPRETAION OF THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF CHRIST'S!

That is a loaded statement, Heidi.
First, based on the Bible itself, very plain language, it says that it is not for private interpretation, II Peter 1:20.  It was given to the Apostles, not just one, It was for all Christians from then to now and it has always been the same. Christ left us His Church, starting with the Apostles who were members of that first 'worldly church' to teach His Truth.  The Bible is not the standard, Christ is. He gave us ALL Truth, only some of it is written. None of it was written for the first 20 or so years.
Just what did they believe in?
Quote
No wonder there is so much confusion as to what is true. You're going to people before God which is what I've been saying all along!

you may have been saying that, but you do not believe it because your words betray you, nor practice it, doing something the Bible explicitly tells you not to do.  You sincerely believe that you can do a much better job at interpreting than the Holy Spirit did in giving it to the Apostles.
See, it is in the interpretation, but whose. Man's or Christ through the Holy Spirit. It is not the words but what they mean.
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2004, 10:53:23 AM »

It's kind of like witnesses to a crime, or accident, you can have five people see the same thing, but all will have a little
different take on what happened.
        Likewise you can take the Bible, and have five different people read the same passages, and all have a little different understanding, and take on what it means. So which one is right and which ones are wrong? That might explain why there are so many different sects in the protestant faith community.
              Heidi, you've been givin more than ample explanations and biblical verses to point out why we do it,
You've already ignored them, so what are you going to ignore even better?
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Heidi
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2004, 03:34:59 PM »

Again, Christ's words are the FOUNDATION of Christianity! If our beliefs are not based on His words, then they will crumble beneath our feet. Once you KNOW ALL of Christ's words, all you have to do is BELIEVE them! That's it! If you believe ALL of His words, only then will we know how to interpret the bible! Without knowing Christ's words FIRST, there will be as many interpretations of the bible as there are people in the world. Again, where did Christ say that we should pray to His mother or call ANYONE Father, much less our Holy Father? In answering this question, it is extremely necessary not to filtrate your interpretations through the catholic church or the apostles FIRST. Then you are NOT putting Christ's words first.  You are trying to fit His words into their doctrine instead of the other way around. If one's allegiance is to the men in the church before Christ, then you will try to change His words to agree with their doctrine. The beliefs of the apostles are CENTERED around Christ's words. The beliefs of the church should be also or they are worshiping someone other than Christ. Only Christ has the words of eternal life. If people do not believe that, then they are not true Christians. Only after you scrutinize every one of Jesus's words until you understand them will you understand the Old and New Testament. That should be a Christians first priority. Again, where did Jesus say to pray to His mother and call ANYONE our Holy Father? Let's start with Christ's words since His words are the cornerstone of Christianity.
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2004, 05:04:30 PM »

Heidi,

I think that there is a severe gap in understanding.

There is a confusion of these terms:  prayer, intercession, worship and mediation.

Without getting to lengthy, the word pray has not always been a Biblical word. By that I don't mean it is not found in the Bible.  Culturally,. centuries ago, actually only in the last several hundred years has it fallen out of use in the secular realm.
It means simply to 'ask'.  Luke 14:18 "I pray thee excuse me"; Acts 10:48 Cornelius prayed Peter to tarry; Acts 16:9 Macedonian call "Praying to Paul saying, "Come!"; Acts 24:4 Paul to Felix: I pray you give us a
brief hearing"; Genesis 40:14 Joseph to Pharoah’s cupbearer, "I pray thee make mention of me to Pharoah"; Exodus 5:3 Moses to Pharoah "We pray thee permit us to go into the wilderness to sacrifice to the Lord";
2 Kings 2:2 Elijah to Elisha "I pray thee tarry here."

 It is a basic, and undeniably Biblical principle of Christian piety that we pray for our fellow Christians, and that they also pray for us, our prayers being joined together in the worship of God.

Now, just what do we mean by 'praying to the saints'?
Surely not worship. It is simply asking/requesting them to intercede on our behalf. It is a thoroughly Biblical principle. We are commanded to pray for each other and to seek others to pray for or with us. The problem is that they are physcially dead and not with us here on earth in the temporal part of the Church.
The problem Protestants have is understanding who is alive and who is dead, since we should only ask those alive.

 The "dead" are not dead. Luke 9:28-31 Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus about His impending death in Jerusalem.
 Luke 16:19ff Rich man and Lazarus: Rich man "prays" (begs) Abraham to send Lazarus…
Matt. 22:32 God is the God of the living and not the dead.
 John 15:1ff Vine and the branches. We ALL share a common LIFE in Christ. Death is no longer separation between the living in Christ and the dead in Christ.

 Hebrews 12:1, Rev. 6:9, Rev. 5:8, Rev. 8:3ff. show quite clearly that the saints can and do intercede for us.

Hebrews 12:22-23 Summary of all of the above: "You HAVE COME to Mount Zion, and to the city of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the myriads of angels, to the general assembly, and the Church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and the spirits of righteous men made perfect.
 James 5:16: "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much." The saints are perfected in heaven and continue to do what they did on earth: offer up prayers and supplications to God on behalf of their brethren in Christ.

The question should be why do we intercede for each other? The theological argument is that man was created to be in communion, communion in Christ specifically.  Part of our nature being in the image of God is communion. Christianity is communion with  one another.  Sharing a common life. We have a three part obligation or fulfillment, It is summed up in the Great Commandment.  You cannot take any one of the three parts away and be complete.
Part of the Protestant problem in modern US is equating the secular and the Biblical. Meaning, the secular is very individualistic, yet that is the greatest sin when it comes to Christianity and the role of man.



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Heidi
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2004, 06:19:08 PM »

Again, Sojourner, where did Christ tell us to pray to Mary and call the pope our Holy Father? You are still taking the catholic doctrine and trying to find words in the bible to justify it. That is worshiping the catholic doctrine FIRST, instead of Christ's words. I truly believe you do not know the difference. Christ talked about the living as opposed to the dead in reference to life in the spirit as opposed to life in the world. He made NO reference to His mother in those passages, nor did He instruct us to call ANYONE 'father, much less our Holy Father except our father in heaven.  He specifically says the opposite, which the catholic church willfully disobeys. Again, you have to read ALL of Christ's words to understand His underlying messages, instead of taking single phrases and fitting them into yours or someone else's interpretations. Then you are worshiping those interpretations first. If you worship Christ first, then you will read His words and BELIEVE them and only then will you look for a doctrine that agrees with HIS words instead of the other way around. You are then worsiping Christ first. I do NOT consider the pope my Holy Father or the catholic doctrine infallible so I can then believe everyone of Jesus's words with no conflict of interest.
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