Knowing Christ's words

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Again, Sojourner, where did Christ tell us to pray to Mary and call the pope our Holy Father?

Apparently you did not yet read my reply to you about the word, 'Father'.
However, in this post you again revert to your blanket statement about not calling anyone father.  Therefore calling your human father, father, makes you unscriptural.

Here is the problem you are having. You have taken a book called the Bible and made it the sole rule. Yet, that Bible came out of a much larger environment we call Holy Tradition. Not all of Tradition is in the Bible, surely not explicitly.

You and most Protestants look at the Bible for deductive principles whereas the Orthodox look at it inductively. Or, in other words, you are looking for very specific words that will say to do this or to do that.
My explanation on 'invocation of the saints' is a very good example. The Bible has many references that I pointed out, but you are looking for very specific language that says, Jesus said to pray to the saints. Since Mary is a saint, and she is alive in Christ, we can pray to Mary since we cannot ask in person as I would ask you to pray for me, or you I.

Now lets take the matter of the Pope.
To call him father is not wrong. However to call him Holy is since his title is in oppostion to scripture. What the Romans have done in this instance is to put the Pope on the same level as Christ, as head of the Church. We don't need another head, surely a human one. Christ is our Head and rules His Church. The principle is also in violation of the historical understanding of what it means to be 'catholic'.
Rome believes that each bishop is under him in a heirarchy and each local church and diocese is part of the whole of the Roman Church. This is not the meaning of the word catholic.

Each individual, local church is complete. It is Christ's Body complete. We (Orthodox) are united individually as ONE, not as parts that make up a whole as the Romans. Each Bishop is equal, even the heirarchy, the bishops are equal. It is only in the organizational form of the Church that we use the heirarchy. which Protestants use as well.  In fact every denomination has a 'pope' with some kind of title.  Each denomination also believes in the idea that parts make up the whole. Theologically, that means Christ's body is made up of many pieces, divided among the various churches.
The unity Christ is speaking about in the Apostles prayer is precisely our understanding of the Church and its unity which the Apostles have given us through the centuries.
Unity is not union which is the matra of Ecumenism. This is usually the meaning on these boards as well when posters support unity of the churches. Thy have union in mind, not unity of Christ nor the Divine deposit of revelation which He gave to His Apostles.

I do NOT consider the pope my Holy Father or the catholic doctrine infallible so I can then believe everyone of Jesus's words with no conflict of interest.

I can agree with you on the first part regarding the Pope, but obviously if one does not follow even scripture to the letter, but depends on ones own ability to decipher, to interpret then one should not have a conflict. You should be able to develop a very comfortable religion.
It is the 'I' as opposed to the 'we' in Christ, joined as communal Christians on this earth in His Church, submitting wholly to Christ the Head.

[Gracey]

Since Mary is a saint, and she is alive in Christ, we can pray to Mary since we cannot ask in person as I would ask you to pray for me, or you I.

If this is all it means to pray "to Mary", could you explain this to me please? Please take note - I am not trying to be argumentative, but there are some things in this which are somewhat disagreeable and I would care to have a better understanding of it. (This may have already been covered in some long ago thread, but I haven't seen it. And please, Lord, let it not open a can of worms). I have a sincere interest...nothing more.

The Fifteen Promises of Mary to Christians Who Recite the Rosary
Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan
Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
The rosary shall be a powerful armour against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.
Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
All who recite the rosary are my sons, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ.
Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.

This is called "the 15 Promises of Mary", so first of all, are these words supposed to have been spoken to St. Dominic and blessed Alan (by the way, who is blessed Alan?) by Mary?

Secondly, is this a true belief of Catholics? I mean what is contained in the aforementioned "promises"? I don't want to make any assumptions.

Possibly, this should even be moved to a new thread, cause it's getting off topic.

I don't want to go on and ask any further questions because maybe this "15 Promises" thing isn't part of the Catholic belief, in which case the questions are senseless, but if anyone can answer, and wants to discuss further, perhaps we can move to another thread?

Gracey

[sojourner]

Gracey,

I'm Orthodox Catholic and we do not have a Rosary, though we do have a 'prayer chain'. I cannot assist you if you want specific answers to the 15 promises.  

This has not ever been part of the original belief and practice of early Christians. Rome has added much more to it, and made it dogma as well.

Elsewhere I also gave an explanation of the veneration of Mary as we do other saints but Mary more so as she is the Theotokos, mother of God. If you need more, just let me know and I will help you.

[Gracey]

From my limited understanding, Orthodox Catholics are a "separate" group with their own doctrine from the Roman Catholics...is this correct? Does the OC fall under the "umbrella" of the RC, or are they completely and totally separate?

Also, this "15 Promises of Mary"....is from the Roman Catholics, then.... from what? the Pope?

I'm sorry - although I have family who are Catholic, and they do have a rosary, but I know very little - most of the masses I had attended as a child were not in english.

Gracey

[Nickolai]

Gracey,

I'm Orthodox Catholic and we do not have a Rosary, though we do have a 'prayer chain'. I cannot assist you if you want specific answers to the 15 promises.  

This has not ever been part of the original belief and practice of early Christians. Rome has added much more to it, and made it dogma as well.

Elsewhere I also gave an explanation of the veneration of Mary as we do other saints but Mary more so as she is the Theotokos, mother of God. If you need more, just let me know and I will help you.

Are you Actual Eastern Orthodox, or Are you under the Papacy.  Like a Byzantine Catholic or Uniate?

[Heidi]

There are many prayer chains which are a good thing. But people in prayer chains do NOT pray TO each other, they pray FOR each other TO God, for it is only God who can ANSWER our prayers. Again, where did Christ say to pray to His mother and call anyone 'father' much less our Holy Father? I'm still awaiting a reply to that question using Christ's words.

[ebia]

There are many prayer chains which are a good thing. But people in prayer chains do NOT pray TO each other, they pray FOR each other TO God, for it is only God who can ANSWER our prayers.

When you ask someone to pray for you, you are praying to them in exactly the same way that someone praying to Mary is doing.

However, at the moment you seem to be going out of your way to prove that you don't know what you are talking about; the prayer chains he's talking about are like prayer ropes - vaguely similar to the rosary chain - a counting device to aid in prayer.  Not chains of people.

[Heidi]

Sorry ebia, it is you who do not know what you are talking about at all, as usual. You contradicted yourself. You said you are praying for people and to them at the same time. When you pray FOR people, to whom are you addressing your prayers? Are you telling them to help themselves? Who are you asking to help them? If you think they can help themselves, then where does God come into the picture? Or do you think we can make ourselves perfect? That is idol worship. Again, where did Jesus tell us to pray to His mother? Please provide scripture reference. Or do you value your opinion more than his words? It appears that you're the one who's digging a hole so large that it's becoming a bottomless, eternal pit.

[sojourner]

Nickolai,

I am Antiochian Eastern Orthodox.

[sojourner]

Gracey,

From my limited understanding, Orthodox Catholics are a "separate" group with their own doctrine from the Roman Catholics...is this correct? Does the OC fall under the "umbrella" of the RC, or are they completely and totally separate?

We are totally separate. Prior to the Roman See departing from the Original Church of the first 10 centuries, they were part of us. They are in schism at the moment from the Orthodox having broken communion with the Church. They have retained some of the beliefs and practices but have added both in doctrine and practice from what was given to the Apostles.

[ebia]

Sorry ebia, it is you who do not know what you are talking about at all, as usual. You contradicted yourself. You said you are praying for people and to them at the same time. When you pray FOR people, to whom are you addressing your prayers? Are you telling them to help themselves? Who are you asking to help them? If you think they can help themselves, then where does God come into the picture? Or do you think we can make ourselves perfect? That is idol worship. Again, where did Jesus tell us to pray to His mother? Please provide scripture reference. Or do you value your opinion more than his words? It appears that you're the one who's digging a hole so large that it's becoming a bottomless, eternal pit.

Whenever you don't understand what someone says, you just make it up, don't you?

Just stop for a minute and answer this:
What, exactly, does the word prayer mean when used by catholics?

If you can't answer that correctly, then everything you have to say about the matter is based on your misconception.

[Heidi]

You did not answer my question, ebia. Again, where did Jesus instruct us to pray to His mother or any person? He DID instruct us how to pray to His Father in heaven. Matthew, 6:6-7, "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."  Then he teaches HOW to pray and what to pray. His instructions on prayer are quite clear. How do my beliefs contradict his words? When i asked catholics on this forum to pray to me, they said; "why should we pray to you?" It appears that the catholics are VERY confused about what prayer means. Why WOULDN'T they pray to me if prayer is simply asking someone to pray for us?  Christ's words are very simple. If people would simply obey them, there would be NO confusion, and disunity in the churches. But instead, they disobey Him and make up their own rituals, and beliefs. WHY DO THEY DO THAT? What is the purpose behind all of these rituals? Do they think it makes them more holy? Do they not believe that ONLY the blood of Christ makes the holy, or do they think they make themselves holy? Which is it?

[sojourner]

Heidi,

If people would simply obey them, there would be NO confusion, and disunity in the churches. But instead, they disobey Him and make up their own rituals, and beliefs. WHY DO THEY DO THAT? What is the purpose behind all of these rituals? Do they think it makes them more holy? Do they not believe that ONLY the blood of Christ makes the holy, or do they think they make themselves holy? Which is it?

Heidi,

We don't think there is confusion. All Orthodox are united in faith and practice. We are One, and Holy as is Christ who is the Church.
Rituals.... since you didn't specifiy I will attempt to explain a few things from the Orthodox Apostolic view. You may go ballistic so hang on.

As I have already explained, man is a communal being. He was not created to be 'individual. He was created in God's image and is the link between the Divine and the Created world. We are a unique creature that has a soul -spirit- divine. yet we also have a body - matter. It was man's obligaton to bring creation, the world to God.
Christ came as an Incarnated Being, also possessing both Divine and Matter in order to bring humankind back into union, body and soul, because of Adams sin which separated us from God. Part of our redemption or salvation was to not only bring victory over death but also provide means wherewith we can become healed within a sick and corrupted state and world.  Because we are human, matter, he uses many material things which aid in that healing. These are called the means of Grace. They are actually all salvic because they aid. These begin with a real, in this world, communal Church, a spiritual entity but also a physical one. Baptism, is a union of divine and matter, use of water, communion, a union of divine and matter, confession- through a bishop, santification through oil, healing through oil, and fasting.

By the way do you fast? Jesus said you must, not an option.

The idea of praying with/to the saints is commanded of us. We do not separate the visible triumphant Church with the militant Church here on earth. We all worship together, we all pray for and with each other.  We are thus communal. We are saved as a community, not as individuals.

Here is a metaphor:  I am as sick as you are in this world. We are all sinners in need of healing. God provided that we have a hospital,(church), doctors, bishops, and lots of differenct medicines to aid in getting me better.

On the other hand you don't want to go to a hospital, Church, you want to do it on your own, have no spiritual father, and are using a lot of immitation medicines, quack medicine and many others are doing the same and nothing seems to change. You scurry from one to another place seeking what you innately feel you need but cannot find.

One can immitate, use the right language, have all the same rules (doctrine) it can look exactly like the real thing but in reality it is a fake.

Protestants, and I know of what I speak, having been a former protestant, do not use any of the means of Grace as specified in the Bible, Not one.
Most only have two and they are simply commemorations as in birthday, or anniversary events. They do not believe any action is taking place in a baptismal event.  It is not an external sign of an internal event, but the event itself.
Communion is the same rather than a participation and a sacrifice. In all cases of all the means of Grace we are either taking Christ into or expelling the disease or a combination of both.

Further, we believe everything is sacramental. This includes our very lives. How can one provide a holy and pleasing sacrifice to God with our lives by not participating in the means He provides to make it so?

That should be enough for you to digest for awhile.

[Heidi]

We simply disagree. I have only ONE Father and He is in heaven. I do not pray to Mary because I believe Jesus's words that she is no better or worse than any other human being.  If i fast, i do it privately so it's done for God than for the praises of men. I do not call any priest 'Father", and i believe Jesus's words that the Counselor will be in me forever. Therefore, i can never be snatched out of His hand. He is my Lord and Saviour, not the worldly church. It is to Him I go for the truth, not the pope or any human being. You can be more loyal to your church than to Christ Himself if you like. I am not. The only thing we can agree on is that we disagree. Let's just leave it at that.

[michael_legna]

Again, Sojourner, where did Christ tell us to pray to Mary and call the pope our Holy Father? You are still taking the catholic doctrine and trying to find words in the bible to justify it. That is worshiping the catholic doctrine FIRST, instead of Christ's words. I truly believe you do not know the difference. Christ talked about the living as opposed to the dead in reference to life in the spirit as opposed to life in the world. He made NO reference to His mother in those passages, nor did He instruct us to call ANYONE 'father, much less our Holy Father except our father in heaven.  He specifically says the opposite, which the catholic church willfully disobeys. Again, you have to read ALL of Christ's words to understand His underlying messages, instead of taking single phrases and fitting them into yours or someone else's interpretations. Then you are worshiping those interpretations first. If you worship Christ first, then you will read His words and BELIEVE them and only then will you look for a doctrine that agrees with HIS words instead of the other way around. You are then worsiping Christ first. I do NOT consider the pope my Holy Father or the catholic doctrine infallible so I can then believe everyone of Jesus's words with no conflict of interest.

People have shown you again and again where these doctrines come from and that they don't contradict scripture.  First they had to correct your misunderstand and prejudicial misrepresentation of the doctrines, but then they have even provided scripture to support it.  You make such a point of relying on scripture yet your posts almost never have any scripture referenced in them and certainly no direct analysis or interpretations offered.  When others offer scripture in support of the correct statement of a doctrine you ignore it and NEVER have a I seen you offer an alternative interpretation in an effort to debate the point.  You always just fall back to repeating your attack such that it appears to be based on purely personal authority and that of course can only come from prejudice and hatred especially when that opinion is clearly shown to be wrong over and over again.