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April 23, 2024, 02:16:51 PM

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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
286803 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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Lauri123
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« on: April 21, 2004, 04:34:04 PM »

Here is an awesome website depicting the religious life of a "common" Roman Catholic.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

It proves that Catholics are NOT Christians.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2004, 04:58:42 PM »

Here is an awesome website depicting the religious life of a "common" Roman Catholic.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

It proves that Catholics are NOT Christians.

Chick Tracts are so full of errors both about the teachings of the Catholic Church and in their interpretation of scripture that nobody but those who read the National Inquirer and the like take them at all seriously.  They certainly should not be seen as proof of anything except how bigoted the man is.

Here are just a few errors in the tract you reference.

In the tract they claim that the Catholic Church teaches that Helen cannot be exposed to “jesus” because she is under the influence of evil spirits.  The priest exorcises the demons by anointing Helen with oil.

This is untrue.  Helen cannot recieve communion because she has not become a member of the Church and professed her faith in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

The Catholic Church does not teach she is under the influence of evil spirits anymore than anyone who has not accepted the grace of God, just as Protestant and other Christian denominations teach.

The Church certainly does not teach that the sacrament of Baptism is an exorcism of demons.

The tract also claims if Helen is a good Catholic her first loyalty will be to the Vatican.

This is complete nonsense as Catholic's owe no allegiance to the Vatican as a government.  Any Christian puts God before Country and so do Catholics, but the Catholic Church is neither God nor Country to a Catholic.

Roman Catholicism replaces repentance with the sacrifice of confession

This is a gross misrepresentation as for a Catholic to properly approach the sacrament of reconcilliation they must be truly repentant.  Repentance is a required part of confessing of sins as we are directed to do in John 20:23

John 20:23  Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The tract goes on to one of Chicks most infamous tactics that of guilt by association. He does this by claiming without proof of course - that the confessional originated in Babylon

Whether something like it was used in Babylon or not proves nothing.  Just because somethign was done by another group before someone does the same does not mean that they got it from that group nor that it is wrong.

For example:  There were flood stories in ancient Babylon too, the Epic of Gilgamesh, but that does not mean the Israelites stole the idea from them and that it is a pagan belief.

The tract goes on and on but it is protected from being copied because Chick knows how easily discredited his claims would be if other people could address them in an electronic format.

My advice to you is not to buy into their hatred and prejudice and at least find a reputable source before you start criticizing anothers beliefs without really understanding them.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 05:01:53 PM by michael_legna » Logged

Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
Lauri123
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2004, 06:24:35 PM »

1st point: I believe that Christ is not in the Eucharist.
Luke 22:19: And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them saying "this is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

Communion is meant to be a remembrance of Christ and his sacrifice for us, we are not meant to injest Him.
From the book "World Religions Made Easy" by Mark Water:
"Roman Catholics believe that God, through the priest, miraculously transforms the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper into Christ's real body.  This means that at every mass Jesus is sacrificed all over again."

If Christ is sacrificed over and over again, then His death on the cross is meaningless, if He has to be sacrificed over and over. He died once, for all of us.

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The Catholic Church does not teach she is under the influence of evil spirits anymore than anyone who has not accepted the grace of God, just as Protestant and other Christian denominations teach.

The thing is: she IS under the influence of evil spirits. We all are. Satan is EVIL, and he tries to influence us every single second of our lives beginning at birth and ending at death.

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Repentance is a required part of confessing of sins as we are directed to do in John 20:23

John 20:23  Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Anything can be taken out of context and misconstrued to fit what you are trying to prove, but if you read that passage in its context, He is speaking to His diciples, not to us, and not to priests. God ALONE forgives sins. Confession to Christ is what is necessary. Confession to a priest does nothing. Man does not have the power to forgive.

Acts 13:38: "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. "

Quote
My advice to you is not to buy into their hatred and prejudice and at least find a reputable source before you start criticizing anothers beliefs without really understanding them.

My advice to YOU is to read the Holy Bible, you know, the one God dictated.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2004, 06:50:32 PM »


Quote
1st point: I believe that Christ is not in the Eucharist.
Luke 22:19: And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them saying "this is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

Communion is meant to be a remembrance of Christ and his sacrifice for us, we are not meant to injest Him.

If you studied the Greek behind that verse you would see that the word translated as remembrance is anamesis (Strongs 364) it is used only 4 times in the New Testament (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24-25, and Heb 10:3) and only 2 times in the Septuigant (Lev 1:9 and Lev 24:7).  The first two refer to the Eucharist all the others refer to reminding God of a sacrificial offering.  This is not a mere memorial of Christ but a calling to mind of His bodily sacrifice.  Elsewhere in the New Testament there are nine other terms used for memorial or remembering.  If the Holy Spirit had wanted us to just remember He would have used one of those.

Besides this if we assume the Eucharist was just a symbol then Paul is teaching idolatry when he says we can suffer damnation by eating and drinking unworthily by not recognizing the Lord's body.

1 Cor 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

How can one suffer damnation by disrespecting a symbol?  I thought you could only do that by directly denying God or His teachings?

Quote
From the book "World Religions Made Easy" by Mark Water:
"Roman Catholics believe that God, through the priest, miraculously transforms the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper into Christ's real body.  This means that at every mass Jesus is sacrificed all over again."

If Christ is sacrificed over and over again, then His death on the cross is meaningless, if He has to be sacrificed over and over. He died once, for all of us.

Of course this is another misrepresentation of the position of the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church makes it very clear that they do not claim that Christ is re-sacrificed at each Mass.  The Eucharist is a re-presentation of the one sacrifice.  It is lies like this re-sacrifice attack that have led to the prejudice and hatred toward the Catholic Church buy those who are not well enough informed and believe these sources without checking out what is really taught by the Church.


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The Catholic Church does not teach she is under the influence of evil spirits anymore than anyone who has not accepted the grace of God, just as Protestant and other Christian denominations teach.

The thing is: she IS under the influence of evil spirits. We all are. Satan is EVIL, and he tries to influence us every single second of our lives beginning at birth and ending at death.

If you notice that is exactly what I said when I stated "anymore than anyone who has not accepted the grace of God, just as Protestant and other Christian denominations teach."  


Quote
Quote
Repentance is a required part of confessing of sins as we are directed to do in John 20:23

John 20:23  Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Anything can be taken out of context and misconstrued to fit what you are trying to prove, but if you read that passage in its context, He is speaking to His diciples, not to us, and not to priests. God ALONE forgives sins. Confession to Christ is what is necessary. Confession to a priest does nothing. Man does not have the power to forgive.

Acts 13:38: "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. "

The context is clear that the authority was given to the Apostles, it is also clear if you study any of the history of the early Church that the bishops serve as the successors of the Apostles and this and the other authorities of the Apostles were passed on to them through the laying on of hands.

It is true that only God forgives sins, but it is also true that in this verse we see Christ passing the authority (not the power) to forgive sins on to His Apostles.

The Catholic Church does not claim the power to forgive sins for their priest, only the authority.

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My advice to you is not to buy into their hatred and prejudice and at least find a reputable source before you start criticizing anothers beliefs without really understanding them.

My advice to YOU is to read the Holy Bible, you know, the one God dictated.

I have read the Bible and know that there is nothing in it that is contrary to anything in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, which I know much better than you or Chick or Mark Water.

If you have any other questions of misconceptions about the teachings of the Church feel free to ask me.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
Lauri123
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2004, 08:26:56 PM »

Quote
If you have any other questions of misconceptions about the teachings of the Church feel free to ask me.

Just for clarification: the Church is the total body of believers in Jesus Christ. Not just the Catholic church.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2004, 08:52:47 PM »

Quote
If you have any other questions of misconceptions about the teachings of the Church feel free to ask me.

Just for clarification: the Church is the total body of believers in Jesus Christ. Not just the Catholic church.

No it is not just the Catholic Church there are those outside of the Catholic Church who are members of THE Church.  But the Church is not just a loose collection of all believers as you would have it be.

As I have said in other posts on this board I see scripture clearly stating the need for a physically identifiable Church (so we can go to it for resolution of disagreements among other things)

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I do not think that a Church is made up of brick and mortar but it is made up of people and those people are established, in scripture, as a hierarchy of Bishops, Elders, Deacons and Members.  It is this hierarchy that we are directed to go to to resolve errors.

This cannot be a bunch of disconnected local hierarchies as the message you get from it would differ from place to place - this must be a central authority.

I see no other candidate than the Catholic Church (except perhaps the Orthodox Church).

Do you have another candidate?  I would be glad to consider one.  If not how do you resolve disputes?  Who do you take a brother too when you disagree over doctrine?  Does Matt 18:17 fit in your church's or denomination's view of the mission of the Church at all?
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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