The Bible our guide?

[I_Believe]

During a discussion on a "Legal and Politics" forum regarding  Marriage -vs- Civil Unions another user stated the following:

As a devout Christian, I support same sex marriage.

I find no dicotomy there.

After quoting several scripture verses that indicated that this position might not be biblical, the other person replied with the following:

The BIBLE has NOTHING to do with God or Christianity. If every single word of the Bible were to be proven false, or simply tales told by the fire, it would make no difference.

How would you respond?

[michael_legna]

During a discussion on a "Legal and Politics" forum regarding  Marriage -vs- Civil Unions another user stated the following:

As a devout Christian, I support same sex marriage.

I find no dicotomy there.

After quoting several scripture verses that indicated that this position might not be biblical, the other person replied with the following:

The BIBLE has NOTHING to do with God or Christianity. If every single word of the Bible were to be proven false, or simply tales told by the fire, it would make no difference.

How would you respond?

The Bible is the Word of God.  It cannot be proven false so hypotheticals like that are tought to consider.

But if we were to consider it for a moment we are left with the problem that it was the Church who decided what texts to include as inspired in its contents.  So if you don't accpet the texts then the Church must have been wrong to include them so you can't trust the Church - so what is left?

Without either of those you have no information about Jesus Christ and His teachings so you have no Christianity.  

So the speaker was wrong.

[I_Believe]

Thanks for the reply michael,

I followed up my original post with the following:

Since "The BIBLE has NOTHING to do with God or Christianity.", you might want to consider just how you came to know your "christ".

Mar 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will arise, and they will give signs and wonders in order to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

I pray that God's Word will clear the fog of delusion.

[michael_legna]

I followed up my original post with the following:

Since "The BIBLE has NOTHING to do with God or Christianity.", you might want to consider just how you came to know your "christ".

Mar 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will arise, and they will give signs and wonders in order to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

I found the Christ and gained my understanding of His message the same way St. Augustine did.

"I would not believe the Gospel unless moved thereto by the Church." - St. Augustine of Hippo

As for those false Christs and prophets that would come - they have in some instances already come but by belonging to the Church that has been around for the entire 2000 years of Christianity I feel I am pretty secure in seeing them for the outsiders they are.

I pray that God's Word will clear the fog of delusion.

Yes it does as long as we are ready to rely on it in all its forms and submit to it in the Church for the resolution of disputed interpretations.

[Brother Love]

Another False statement by michael_legna:

but by belonging to the Church that has been around for the entire 2000 years of Christianity I feel I am pretty secure in seeing them for the outsiders they are.


michael, believes the roman catholic ((religion)) is the Church thats been around 2,000 years. Any Bible Believer knows that is not true.

[ebia]

michael, believes the roman catholic ((religion)) is the Church thats been around 2,000 years. Any Bible Believer knows that is not true.

Assuming you're not arguing about 30 years, give or take, then I take it you can and will prove that assertion?

[Brother Love]

michael, believes the roman catholic ((religion)) is the Church thats been around 2,000 years. Any Bible Believer knows that is not true.

Assuming you're not arguing about 30 years, give or take, then I take it you can and will prove that assertion?

pROVE WHAT? lIKE i SAID EVERY bIBLE bELIEVER kNOWS IT IS nOT TRUE

[michael_legna]

Another False statement by michael_legna:

but by belonging to the Church that has been around for the entire 2000 years of Christianity I feel I am pretty secure in seeing them for the outsiders they are.


michael, believes the roman catholic ((religion)) is the Church thats been around 2,000 years. Any Bible Believer knows that is not true.

And yet Brother Love (AKA 3 in 1) cannot prove his assertion through any independent unbiased historical source so all he does is rant on in his personal opinions.

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the historical record regarding the creation of the Church I am here and willing to discuss it with you.  But you better be prepared to actually work for once because I am going to hold you to providing reliable unbiased sources for your bizarre hate filled claims.

[I_Believe]

(Heb 8:10-11 NKJV)  "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. {11} "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

(Heb 10:10-25 NKJV)  By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. {11} And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. ...{16} "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," {17} then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." {18} Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. ...{22} let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith...

(Gal 2:11-16 NKJV)  Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; {12} for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. {13} And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.... man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ... for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

(Rom 14:4-12 NKJV)  Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. {5} One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. {6} He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it... But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother?...  So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.


We are the Church.  We are all wrong and we are all right, sometimes.  We are all flesh and we are all sinners and we are saved only by the grace of God through faith in Christ.

[michael_legna]

I don't know what your point was with any of the verses your reference since you did not bother to provide your interpretation of them.  So I don't know how to respond to what it is you think you see in them.

We are the Church.  We are all wrong and we are all right, sometimes.  We are all flesh and we are all sinners and we are saved only by the grace of God through faith in Christ.

Then who do we go to to resolve disputes?

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Then who has the power to bind and loose on earth as in heaven - do we all?

Mat 18:18  Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

No in order to fulfill the mission Christ gave the Church, it must be a visible physical entity, one can identify as standing separate from the rest of humanity so we can go to it.

[I_Believe]

Mat 18:15-17 WEB  "If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother.   (16)  But if he doesn't listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.   (17)  If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembly. If he refuses to hear the assembly also, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector.


Rom 16:3-5 WEB  Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,  (4)  who for my life, laid down their own necks; to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the assemblies of the Gentiles.  (5)  Greet the assembly that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first fruits of Achaia to Christ.


Gal 6:1 WEB  Brothers, even if a man is caught in some fault, you who are spiritual must restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to yourself so that you also aren't tempted.


1Ti 5:19-21 WEB  Don't receive an accusation against an elder, except at the word of two or three witnesses.  (20)  Those who sin, reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear.  (21)  I charge you in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.


Mat 18:18 LITV  Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth will be, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you loose on the earth will be, having been loosed in Heaven.



I don't see Mat 18:18 as a limitless power given to a elite group of disciples but as a picture of what occurs when we follow God's Word in relation to Church order and discipline.  The full context of scripture tells us that we are the church and all these examples speak to that context.

standing separate from the rest of humanity

Mat 5:14-16 WEB  You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.   (15)  Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house.   (16)  Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

2Co 6:14-17 WEB  Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? Or what communion has light with darkness?  (15)  What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever?  (16)  What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people."  (17)  Therefore, "'Come out from among them, And be separate,' says the Lord, 'Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you.


We are called to ""come out from among them, And be separate" and to shine our light before men so that we glorify our father in heaven.  And we are to "always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you".


1Pe 3:15-16 WEB  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:  (16)  having a good conscience; that, while you are spoken against as evildoers, they may be disappointed who revile your good manner of life in Christ.

[michael_legna]

Once again you provide verses without offering interpretations along with them.  So I cannot respond to what you might have meant or tried to imply by those verses.  But I will respond to your comments.

I don't see Mat 18:18 as a limitless power given to a elite group of disciples but as a picture of what occurs when we follow God's Word in relation to Church order and discipline.  The full context of scripture tells us that we are the church and all these examples speak to that context.

If you see it that way you need to study the surrounding text a little better.  Jesus was talking to the Apostles - His inner circle.  These authorities and promised protections were not given to all Christians but to the leadership of the Church and that is exactly how they are expressed in the rest of scripture.  Even the Apostle Paul did not claim these authorities deferring instead to the Council of Jerusalem to resolve the dispute he had with a group within the Church rather than make an authoritative statement on his own.

[I_Believe]

Even the Apostle Paul did not claim these authorities deferring instead to the Council of Jerusalem to resolve the dispute he had with a group within the Church rather than make an authoritative statement on his own.

How did I know you would go there?

(Acts 15:6-11 NKJV)  Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. {7} And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. {8} "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, {9} "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. {10} "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? {11}  "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

(Acts 15:23-31 NKJV)  They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. {24} Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"; to whom we gave no such commandment; ...{30} So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. {31} When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement.

Context was to "establish/settle" that the Gentiles believers were "saved in the same manner as they" and should not be subject to a "yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear".

The question was answered in the scripture to address these issue.  The question is not answered by proclamation but by the context of the revealed grace through Jesus Christ.  Since these were the disciples who had been with Jesus they had the context to evaluate the issue.  Now we all have the context of scripture to evaluate truth.  Peter was right sometimes and wrong others.  Scripture shows this and scripture is the guide in all the assemblies.  There is no mother church.

We have a permanent scriptural record of Gentile obligations to Jewish laws not a pattern to establish a mother church in which all power resides.  As witnessed throughout history the mother church concept has not brought forth righteous fruit.  

(Eccl 1:9 NKJV)  That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.

Scripture is complete!

(1 Cor 14:33 NKJV)  For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

(2 Tim 3:16-4:2NKJV)  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. {4:1}  I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: {2} Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Apostle Paul did not claim these authorities

He spoke with authority when it was appropriate...and he used the full context of revealed scripture to establish the truth.

(Gal 2:11-16 NKJV)  Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;.... man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ... for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

[I_Believe]

Since the topic of the of thread has wandered down the Catholic (mother church) path I am going to lock it.  Feel free to start a new thread to continue the mother church argument.