Paul2"s Group End Times Studies and Debates

[Paul2]

      Hello and Welcome everybody.

     We, BlackeyedPeas, 2nd Timothy, Petro, Reba, and myself (Paul2) have been studing and debating the Rapture of the Church and the End Times in general on the "Best of Paul2 Pre-Trib. Rapture pages. We have all agreed to restart this study, point by point to reach conclusions before continueing on. We have covered many things on the other post already but have not reached conclusions as we are seeking to do.

     I suggest that we keep the other thread active to continue discussing previous topics that we are in the middle of, and using this thread to start from the beginning and address each issue before moving on.

     We have decided as a group to first try to identify who "the Chosen", the "Elect", and the "Saints" are. We will be studing to see if they are all the same or different, and if different, what the differences are or are not. We will also be seeking to discover where the Saints of the Old Testament are the same or different from the Church and the Tribulation Saints.

     Any who wish to be part of this study are welcomed but lets keep this thread organized. Please only post things here that are relevant to this first topic, "the Chosen", "the Elect", and "the Saints". If you wish to discuss anything else please do so on the thread titled "the Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture Pages". We will still discuss and answer questions on that thread while reserving this thread for specific topics agreed upon by the group.

    I already started to post using our new format on the other post and will copy my first post of our revised study here.

    Tom, is there a way that we can keep this thread from getting side tracked? Anyone who reads this first post will see what we are trying to do here but this first post will get buried quickly and our format will be lost. As long as people read this first post things will work but once we get going, it could become a free for all again which is what we are trying to prevent so we stay on track, issue by issue until conclusions can be reached. Let me know what you can think of to keep this from happening on this thread.

                                                              Paul2

 

[Paul2]

Lets begin then,

  I'll start with "the Chosen". Who are "the Chosen?"

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

    From this verse it can be established that the "Chosen" are Hebrews, the Jews, and at the time this was written they were above all people that were upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 14:2 "for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

    Again from the above verse we see the same thing. The Jews had been chosen to be a peculiar people unto God, above all the nations upon the earth.

    1 Chronicles 16:13 "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

    The verse above mentions the chilren of Jacob (Israel) as God's chosen ones.

   Psalms 33:12  "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."

   At the time of the writing of these verses in the Psalms Israel was the nation whose God was the Lord, and the people of the nation Israel, were chosen for his own inheritance.

   Psalms 78:31 "The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel."

   In the verse above we learn that the Wrath of God came upon them (Israel) and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
Remember this: the WRATH of GOD came upon the chosen men of Israel. It seems that to be "chosen" does not mean they can not under-go Wrath! To be chosen is no guarentee that those chosen will not under-go Wrath.

   Psalms 105:6 "O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. "

    In the verse above we see Abraham is the servant of God, and the children of Jacob are the Chosen ones. This would lead me to believe that Isaac was not considered "chosen" but only the children of Jacob are chosen. I'm not saying Isaac did not receive Salvation, I'm saying that according to the above verse he was not considered "chosen."

   Psalms 135:4  "For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure."

    Now we find that Jacob has been chosen unto God Himself, and Israel has been chosen for His peculiar treasure.

    Isaiah 41:8  "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."

    Above we have Israel (the nation or Jacob?) the servant, Jacob whom God has chosen, Abraham God's friend. Notice that Abraham is not called "chosen" but called God's friend! I believe theres a reason God calls Abraham His friend but not "chosen." So far Abraham does not belong to the group considered to be Chosen. He is stated to be God's friend.

    Isaiah 44:1 "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:"

    Above there seems to be a difference between Jacob the servant, and Israel the chosen.

    Isaiah 65:15  "And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"

    The servants of God will be called by another name! The sevants of God will not be called the chosen in the future after this was written for this was prophecy at the time written.

    Okay, thats the Old Testament version of the Chosen. The chosen so far are Jews, children of Jacob, the nation of Israel.

    Matthew 20:16 " So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    Wait, lets look at this carefully. the word chosen is used but how? It doesn't say THE CHOSEN, it says chosen as an action. Could this still mean the Jews? Now who are the called? Could the called be Gentiles called into the Church, and those few who were chosen be Jews that were also called into the church? Could this refer to the Remnant of Israel? Lets continue on and see what we find out.

    Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

    Now we see the "Elect" who are chosen. Who are the Elect? Could the Elect be the Remnant of Israel?

   John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Jesus is speaking to Jews in the above verse, before the Church began. Wouldn't these chosen be the Remnant of Israel?

     John 15:19  "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

     In the verse above Jesus was talking to His Jewish disciples, which could still be considered the remnant of Israel.

    Acts 1:2  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:"

    In the above verse the Apostles are identified as those He had chosen. The apostles were decendants of Jacob, therefore qualify as the Remnant of Israel.

   Acts 22:14  And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

    In the above verse Paul is chosen, Paul was a Jew also part of the Remnant of Israel.

    Ephesians 1:4  "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Finally the Church is in clear view. But something is different. The Church was chosen IN HIM. The Church is chosen in Him, the Church was chosen to be indwelled by the Holy spirit and become His Body, the body of Christ.

   2 Thessalonians 2:13  "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

    The Church just wasn't chosen as the Jews were chosen in the Old Testament, they also suffered the Wrath of God. The Church was chosen to something else, chosen to receive Salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth. Theres a difference between what the church was chosen to and what Israel was chosen to be.

    1 Peter 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Above we are told of the destiny of the Church. We are a chosen Generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, called out of darkness into His Light. The Church becomes the royal priesthood, not the levites, the Church was called out of darkness into His light. We are a chosen Generation. Those chosen to be in the Church are different from those chosen to be His people in the old Testament which were children of Jacob.

   Revelation 17:14  "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. "

    Those with Christ are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL.

                                                          Paul2

[Paul2]

Ex 19:5-6

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
KJV
Ps 33:12

12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
KJV

1 Peter 2: 4---10

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

Ps 106:4-5

4 Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;

5 That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.
KJV

1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
KJV


I just don't see the division you guys do.

[Paul2]

    Seeing we are studing The Chosen, the Elect, and the Saints, I'm going to post on the subject of the "Elect."

                            "THE ELECT"

Isaiah 42:1  "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

     The above verse is the first place I've found the word "Elect" in the Bible. Jesus Christ Himself is the first person described as "Elect" in the Bible.

Isaiah 45:4  "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."

     Above we see that Jacob is called God's "servant", just as Jacob was called God's servent when we searched for the "Chosen". Israel is called God's elect, just as Israel was called the Chosen, in my last study on the Chosen.

Isaiah 65:9  "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there."

    The verse above is interesting, first we see the "seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor". This is clearly Jesus Christ. Then we see "mine elect" shall inherit it. This would be the Remnant of Israel, (every Jew that ever lived was not the elect. The Elect are elected unto Salvation and are the Remnant of Israel.) Then we see "and my servants" shall dwell there. Are the servants the same as the elect? Or is God using different terms for different groups?

Isaiah 65:22 "They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. "

    The above verse is future prophecy that will be fulfilled in the Millenial Kingdom by the Remnant of Israel, the Old Testament Saints were promised this. This prophecy is of the future kingdom on earth. The remanant of Israel is the Elect in this verse.

    Thats it for Old Testament verses of "the Elect". So far I see the "ELECT" as being the Remnant of Israel. Jesus christ was called the Elect, and Jesus was in His Humanity, a Jew, the Remnant of Israel.

Matthew 24:22  "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

     The above verse is the first time the Elect is used in the New Testament. I believe these "elect" are still the Remnant of Israel. I believe these Elect to be the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel           I believe that these ELECT 144,000 are also described as "THE WOMAN" of Revelation 12 that will be in the place prepared for her in the desert and protected by Antichrist as described in Revelation 12. see below:

    Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
   14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
   15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
   16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
   17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    If the Woman is the Remnant of Israel, what we would have here is: The Remnant of Israel (the 144,000) are taken to the desert during the last half of Daniel's 70th week, from when Antichrist receives his power from Satan and reigns for 42 months which equals 1,260 days. The Remnant of HER (the remnant of Israel's) SEED. Who would that be? I believe the Remnant of the WOMANS SEED(woman being the Remant of Israel) ARE THE TRIBULATION SAINTS.

     Notice that the Remnant of the Womans seed keep the "commandments of God", and have testimony of Jesus Christ. It sounds like works to me. It also sounds like the LAW.
Something to consider here: During the first 69 weeks of Daniel, the Jews, who the prophecy concerned as well as Jerusalem was under the Law of Moses. Israel still has one week to complete. Could Israel be placed back under the Law during the final 70th week? Before you answer consider the Two witnesses of Revelation 11 would be the ones to reveal God's will and to be His prophets for the first half of Daniel's 70th weeK. John in Revelation 11 is told to measure the temple and those who worship in the temple. If God doesn't want the Temple why ask John to count those who worship in the rebuilt temple? I'm not making any conclusions yet but it merits consideration and more study.

Matthew 24:24  "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

     In the above verse I still see the Elect as the Remnant of Israel. I see Antichrist coming to power in the last half of Daniel's 70th week, and beginning his lying wonders, which is when the "Woman" (who I believe is the Remnant of Israel) will go into the desert for 1,260 days or 42 months during Antichrist reign.

Matthew 24:31  "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    In the verse above I do not see the Rapture! First the angels are doing the gathering where during the Rapture Jesus Christ Himself calls the Church, both dead and alive to meet Him in the air. Angels are doing the gathering, not Jesus Himself, this is important to understand. This happens at the end of Daniel's 70th week, this is the gathering and resurrection of the Remnant of Israel. Old Testament Saints are being resurrected as well as the 144,000.

Luke 18:7 "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?"

    At the time the above verse was spoken the Elect refered to the Remnant of Israel. Sound just like the souls which cry from under the alter when the 5th seal is broken.

Romans 8:33  "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

     In the verse above I can still see the remnat of Israel. How?

     Lets go back further.

Romans 8:29  "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
   30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
   31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
   32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
   33: Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

   Now lets begin with verse 30. I see the Church in verse 30, Pre-destined, Called, Justified, and Glorified. If verse 30 is about the Church, could verse 33 being speaking of the Remnant of Israel? Could not the meaning be don't think less of the Remnant of Israel, for though they were not members of the Church, God Justified them? Consider where we are in Romans. The next chapter, chapter 9 deals with Israel in the past before the time of Jesus. Chapter 10 of Romans deals with Israel during the time of Paul, and chapter 11 deals with the future remnant of Israel. Considering where these chapters are in relation to each other and the theme that is being put forth, could the Elect in Romans 8:33  be the Remnant of Israel which is becoming the focus of Paul through the chapters 9-11? You may not agree but do you see the possibility that this is the message?

   I'll continue this on the next post.              

                                                       Paul2

[Paul2]

                     "The ELECT" Part 2

     Here comes the exceptions: So far i can see the Elect being the Remnant of Israel. Now things will change. We will see the church called the elect and also angels being called the elect. Remember this, angels also are called elect, as we shall soon see. We all must deal with the angels being called elect. We all must explain the elect angels into our interpretations. But first, back to the Word.

Colossians 3:12  "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"

    The above verse can not be the Remnant of Israel only, it could refer to Jewish converts to Christianity but also must include the Gentiles of the Church as well. I believe that this is the first verse using the "elect" that "must" be applied to the Church. We have now found an exception where the Church is described as the Elect of God, and where the remnant of Israel could not be the focus of the verse.

1 Timothy 5:21  "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    The verse above is another exception. This makes identifying the Elect next to impossible. Are we to believe Angels are part of the body of Christ if the Church is considered to be the Elect? No! Are Angels to be considered the Remnant of Israel? No! We are all going to get confused and stumble over this usage of "Elect Angels" in this verse. We could try to make the word "angels" mean "messenger" but it seems a stretch. If messenger was the real meaning there are plenty of ways to convey that without confusion. The chosen word was "angel" and I believe we should interprete it that way.

2 Timothy 2:10  "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

     I see the Church as the elect in the above verse.

Titus 1:1  "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"

    The elect in the above verse could be the Remnant of Israel or the Church, or both.

1 Peter 1:1  "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
   2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

    In the above verse we can see that when taken in context that the Elect refers to the Church.

1 Peter 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

   In the above verse we see Jesus Christ is called Elect again.

2 John 1:1  "The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

    The above verse refers to the Church as elect again.

2 John 1:13 "The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

    The elect is the Church in this verse.

    That completes the Scriptures that use the word Elect in a relevant way to our study.

     My conclusions are: "The elect" most times refer to the Remnant of Israel, a few times to the Church, twice to Jesus Himself, and once to angels. Now were all in trouble! The angels really made this complicated for us to identify the elect. The question arises now: Are their different groups of "the Elect?" I say there must be. Jesus is a different elect than the angels. The Church is a different elect than the angels. This we should be able to agree on I hope.

    The question then becomes are "the Elect" that are found in the Old Testament, the Remnant of Israel different than "the Elect" of the Church?

    Seeing that Jesus Himself and the angels must be different in being "the elect" I would think that the Remnant of Israel and the Church could also be different in regards to being "Elect".

    Ok, I presented The Elect with Scripture, and offered my interpretation. We can begin to study and debate these verses and their meanings.

   P.S. It was all going so well and smoothly on part 1 of "THE ELECT". I start page 2 and it gets all confusing and messed up!

                                                            Paul2

[nChrist]

Tom, is there a way that we can keep this thread from getting side tracked? Anyone who reads this first post will see what we are trying to do here but this first post will get buried quickly and our format will be lost. As long as people read this first post things will work but once we get going, it could become a free for all again which is what we are trying to prevent so we stay on track, issue by issue until conclusions can be reached. Let me know what you can think of to keep this from happening on this thread.

                                                              Paul2

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

We'll do the best we can. I know of one not mentioned in your first post who would like to turn this into a "There is no Rapture" thread. I will simply help Wopic start his own thread on the opposite topic, and he will not be allowed to disrupt this Bible Study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Reba]

Paul1 said to Paul2  

Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

[Paul2]

Paul1 said to Paul2  

Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

    Reba,

    I agree that "in Christ" (the Church) all are one. But what about those not in Christ? Before Christ there was a difference. "In Christ" is refering to the Church as I see it. I'm looking at those before the Church and those after the Rapture of the Church who are NOT IN CHRIST.

Romans 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
   6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:otherwise work is no more work.
   7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
   8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    Consider verse 5 carefully. At the present time, there is a Remnant (of Israel) according to the "ELECTION TO GRACE." These are IN CHRIST and the Church.

Romans 11:25  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
   26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
   27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
   28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

                Paul2 does listen to Paul1,

    Right now, present time their is a difference between Israel and the Church. "As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies". They will be saved but not "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in". Israel right now is not "in Christ" but enemies of the Gospel. There is a Remnant of Israel in the Church as spoken of in verse 5, but Israel outside the election of Grace, that is the Church, are enemies to the gospel until the fulness of the gentiles be come in, Which is the completion of the Church and the Rapture of the Church. When the Church is Raptured, Israel will begin to see, not until because they are blinded in part.

Romans 11:33  "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

     Paul2 says to Paul1 regarding Romans 11:33, "I don't give up that easily."

                                                          Paul2

[Reba]

What makes us one is salvation our salvation is in Him do you know of any other salvation?


 The blood of bulls did not save..

  Christ always was/is  they looked forward we look back but we all look to the cross.
 
He was/is the Lamb

A house divied will fall  we are one

[Paul2]

What makes us one is salvation our salvation is in Him do you know of any other salvation?


 The blood of bulls did not save..

  Christ always was/is  they looked forward we look back but we all look to the cross.
 
He was/is the Lamb

A house divied will fall  we are one

    Reba,

   Was this a responce to my above post (#7) or was this just a statement you are making? I don't know what to make of this.

     I'm just going to sit back and see what happens here for a while. I'm spending all my free time working on these posts but I'm not getting anywhere it seems. I search the Scriptures, analize the scriptures, think out my posts, type my posts but it seems not many people really consider them. Petro said I should back up my position with Scripture and when I post Scripture it seems the Scriptures I post are ignored. This is why I have often just stated my beliefs, because nobody seems to like to respond to the Scriptures I post.

    I'm gonna wait to see the responces before I continue.

                                                        Paul2

[Petro]

Sorry, folks, I was gone most of the day, npow that I am back, I am lost, already.

Paul2, has posted a list of verses and commented on them, what are we supposed to do.

For instance just on the first verse Paul's conclusionary point, I already disagree with Pauls2's conclusion.

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

    From this verse it can be established that the "Chosen" are Hebrews, the Jews, and at the time this was written they were above all people that were upon the face of the earth.

I am lost as to what or where we are to debate this, Paul2 you already posted verses, and comentaries on them.

It seems to me............that;

If we are going to debate these points on another thread, this thread should be locked and only the points agreed to, should be posted herein, as a final concensus as to what the answer is to the question posed.

In fact there can be as many threads necessary to have ongoing discussions, on the different questions.

But the outline should post the questions on a locked thread, which will, then be discussed at the debate threads;

For example;

Who are the chosen of God?

Who are the Elect of God?

Who are the Saints of God?

Who are the Faithful of God?

This is just an example...............

These can all be, ongoing threads, to allow maximum participation, and then as they are exhausted, down to a final conclusion they can be answered in a paragraph, citing text.

There is already 26 reponses herein, and we don't even have an outline we can fill in, as we move along to a final conclusion on who gets raptured and when.


Blessings,

Petro

[Paul2]

    Petro,

    I had set this thread up for the question and debate thread. I see no reason to start a conclusions thread as we will probably never get to a conclusion to post.

   Things that I posted are up for debate here so you can qoute them and debate them. I was doing what you say I don't do enough, and thats post Scripture.

    I started with "THE CHOSEN" and searcherd the entire Bible for ALL relevant verses using the word "chosen." I offered my opinion on these verses so everyone would know MY interpretation of the verses. They are subject to debate. I was trying to make this easy for everybody. Every relevant verse containing the word "chosen" was posted and I offer my views on them, so you would know MY interpretation of them.

    I decided to then post all the Scripture using the word "elect" that was relevant to our study.

    I had told you to start this and you handed it back to me. Then I spend the last 2 days studing and typing and your complaining. This is why I said for you to do it. It seems that no matter what I do, I can't make anyone happy. This is becoming a waste of my time. Nothing is going to be accomplished, its OPEN SEASON on Paul2!

    I'm ready to give up, and to start a thread for B.E.P., 2nd Timothy, and myself, where we alone can do a study on the end times and Rapture. I've said it over and over, I'm trying to teach an interpretation of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a subject you DON'T want to study, just debate.

    You have convinced me that no matter what I do you won't like it. Why should I bother?

                                                         Paul2

[Paul2]

     Now I've been told I'm being Childish! Thats motivational!

   I'll have you know this. I'm really MAD! I wrote in a CHILDLIKE manner to cover ANGER! I thought rather than be RUDE and MEAN again as I was with Reba, I'd try CHILDLIKE, to express my frustration in a nice way this time.

   Well so much for that approach. Maybe some will like me better when I'm mad instead of Childish but I doubt it, but then again I really don't care right now because I'm MAD! (theres a little childish behavior for ya!)

    My wife is mad because I've spent the last few days glued to the Bible and the computer whenever I havn't been coaching my son's soccer team, taking him to his basketball game or seeing the Passion alone twice.  

    Its apparent that I'm trying to present an interpretation that some don't want taught, but I'm supposed to play nice.

    Its like trying to do a puzzle with Scriptures but some people want to pick up the pieces and put them back in the box rather than leaving them face up on the table and waiting to see if it will fit into the picture that is developing as more and more pieces of the Scripture puzzle are added and the picture becomes clearer.

    I knew from the start that this format would lead to picking up a Scripture, looking it over and putting it back in the box, cause it didn't fit YOUR picture. That would be because you have your own interpretation. I started all of these posts a year ago with one intention at that was to present the evidence of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Thats MY picture that I'm trying to paint. I have made perfectly clear from my first posts on the site.
   
     To complete the Picture of my Scripture puzzle which was and is my intention, the pieces of Scripture must remain face up on the table and not be put back in the box.

    In other words each Scripture must be looked at in two ways, your way and my way. Ok picture this:

    We each have a Bible puzzle with a verse of scripture on each piece. We each take those Scripture pieces from the Bible puzzle and try to make our picture. You may fit a piece of your puzzle in a different location that mine. I may use a piece of my Scripture near the end of my puzzle when many pieces are in place, the picture has developed, and it can be placed into a framework of scripture that has revealed that this piece does fit there. Your building your puzzle and place the same Scripture piece I used at the end to soon, and because of this your picture never developes because by that piece of Scripture being locked in the wrong place, the rest of the pieces will end up wrong and the picture remains incomplete.

   Some Scriptures have two meaning, some Scriptures have Hidden meanings. I need the Scriptures left on the table, face up, if I see that theres a possibility that the scripture will fit like a glove later, when the picture becomes more clear.

   Make your own puzzle using Scripture, paint your picture, Place the Scripture in your puzzle where ever you think they fit to make your picture, thats fine with me. But I should be allowed to paint my picture using Scripture where I see it fits the picture that I'm painting. The goal being who has the most complete picture when the scriptures are all in place and a complete picture is seen, without contradiction when the final picture is revealed.

    My picture of the Bible puzzle is of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, Daniel's 70th week, the End Times.  

    I don't know what the rest of you are doing but I'm trying to teach an interpretation that places ALL scripture into a complete picture which I have seen.

    Imagine my Bible puzzle has the complete picture under the scripture on the cover of the box the puzzle came in. I have seen the complete picture on the cover of the box and know that if I assemble the pieces together correctly the picture I saw on the cover of the box will be the picture the puzzle creates when assembled properly. I know that the pieces of the Bible form the picture I have seen. Now its just as matter of assembling the pieces. Problem is people keep taking My pieces and putting them in the wrong places. They never saw the picture on the box. They are trying to make My picture into their picture. Paint your own picture with Scripture (hands out a Bible puzzle with pieces of Scripture and whatever picture you want on the cover) now you can create your picture puzzle but allow me to continue with mine.

    Put the Scriptures where ever you want but allow that I be allowed to reserve final judgment on where and when to place Scripture in my interpretation. I know that when my interpretation is complete all convicts we be resolved, there will be no conflicts with the rest of Scripture. The mystery will be solved, and the picture will be clear.

    This has been my goal from the beginning, to present the evidence and theory, the interpretation of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church and the End Times. I will do this somewhere. Maybe here is not the right place for me to do it but thats what I'm here to do, the reason I started posting in the first place!

    I'm mad so I'm going to go now. By the way, How do you like me now? Do you like me better when I Childlike or mad?

    I know this post is a double dose of both but, Hey, I'm Childish when I'm mad!

    I'll get over it, venting like this helps a little, I'll be back when I'm not mad anymore.

                                                       Paul2

[Reba]

Well Paul maybe you could just be manly. Maybe if scripture was as important to you as your ego you would be willing to see help  when it is offered.

Bep i will just stay away from 'Paul2's' threads  we seems to clash something awful and i believe the thread starter should have some control over the thread.

[nChrist]

Hello All,

First, I apologize for being out of pocket most of the last two days. We had a funeral in the family and I've not felt well enough to do much. I really don't like making excuses, especially considering how fascinated I am with this topic.

I think there might be a reasonable compromise that everyone could live with. What about having a separate presentation for each differing view? I don't know how many that would be. I'm positive there are at least three, maybe more (i.e. no Rapture at all, Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Mid-Tribulation Rapture, and Post-Tribulation Rapture. What if the best case for each view could be made in a separate thread without any interruption or debate at all? What if yet another thread was reserved for discussion and debate of the various views?

This is just a thought that would allow a complete picture of each view. I also think it would be much quicker and without so much aggravation in trying to complete a thought without being side-tracked. What does everyone think about this?

My belief could be summarized easily. I believe there are multiple end times and events with a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. I think it would even be possible to do a brief with the times and events in chronological order.  

Just two cents worth. What do all of you think?

Love In Christ,
Tom