Paul2"s Group End Times Studies and Debates

[Petro]

   Petro,

    I had set this thread up for the question and debate thread. I see no reason to start a conclusions thread as we will probably never get to a conclusion to post.

   Things that I posted are up for debate here so you can qoute them and debate them. I was doing what you say I don't do enough, and thats post Scripture.

    I started with "THE CHOSEN" and searcherd the entire Bible for ALL relevant verses using the word "chosen." I offered my opinion on these verses so everyone would know MY interpretation of the verses. They are subject to debate. I was trying to make this easy for everybody. Every relevant verse containing the word "chosen" was posted and I offer my views on them, so you would know MY interpretation of them.

    I decided to then post all the Scripture using the word "elect" that was relevant to our study.

    I had told you to start this and you handed it back to me. Then I spend the last 2 days studing and typing and your complaining. This is why I said for you to do it. It seems that no matter what I do, I can't make anyone happy. This is becoming a waste of my time. Nothing is going to be accomplished, its OPEN SEASON on Paul2!

    I'm ready to give up, and to start a thread for B.E.P., 2nd Timothy, and myself, where we alone can do a study on the end times and Rapture. I've said it over and over, I'm trying to teach an interpretation of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a subject you DON'T want to study, just debate.

    You have convinced me that no matter what I do you won't like it. Why should I bother?

                                                         Paul2

Ok, Paul2,

This is fine with me, I will strat tomorrow, seeing its Sunday and I have been tied up all day, with church and visitation and such.

See you tomorrow...

Blessings, Petro

[joelkaki]

Paul2, I don't know if you remember me, because it has been a long time since I have really been active on this site (really only before the crash), but I am an orthodox preterist (as opposed to "full" preterism, which says that Christ has already returned), postmillennialist, who believes in Covenant theology.  So I am about as opposite in my eschatological beliefs as it gets in conservative circles.  BUt I would like to get in on this discussion, if you don't mind.  And I would really like to do it in a Berean manner.  It's OK to get emotional and passionate about theological issues, so long as it is handled in a Christ-like way.  Having said that, let me say a few things about your first couple of posts on this thread (I haven't seen anything in the other thread you refer to).  
  First of all, I think you make way too many assumptions in your posts.  You start out with your premises, and then you have a few other premises, and then you go to your Bible, and you seek to show what is says, and that's great, that is what we all should do, but you assume that your initial premises are undebatable, when really, they are the heart of the issue.  For example, you say once that "Jesus is speaking to Jews in the above verse, before the Church began."  You assume there your premise that the church began at Pentecost, and you assume the strong dichotomy between Israel and the Church in the dispensational viewpoint, when really that is the heart of the debate.  So, all of this to say, the way you are approaching this is good in that you seem to want to evaluate the Biblical data, and yet you assume too much.  You need to prove some of that before you can go on to proving the other things.
   Now, as to a thing or two that I disagree with you on:

I agree that "in Christ" (the Church) all are one. But what about those not in Christ? Before Christ there was a difference. "In Christ" is refering to the Church as I see it. I'm looking at those before the Church and those after the Rapture of the Church who are NOT IN CHRIST.

I believe you are quite mistaken here.  I don't think you will find this idea in the scriptures.  Look at 1 Corinthians 10:4-- "...and all drank the same spiritual drink.  For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."  
   These Jews in the OT drank of Christ who was yet to come.  In other words, they were saved by faith in Jesus Christ who would come and die for their sins.  How then can you say that they are not IN CHRIST?  Look at 1 Corinthians 12:13 -- "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."   This is, I believe you would agree, referring to the church.  Yet here is extremely similar language to that found 2 chapters earlier referring to OT people.  "Drink into one Spirit"-->"drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, which was Christ."  You see what I'm saying.  They drank of the same Savior, and thus are also in Christ, just as we are?  I don't think there is any possibility of salvation outside of Christ, thus they were in Christ and we are in Christ.  

I really would like to be involved in this discussion with you, Paul2, and I don't want to offend you.  So if I say anything offensive, just don't get mad, please, just let me know, and I will stop saying such things.

Joel

[Petro]

joelkaki,

Welcome back, just don't through your temper tantrums, or act childish, and you will be fine. LOL..

On on serious note, I welcome your input, maybe we can shed light in this discussion on those verses which puts you at odds with, Gods Word.

Anyway, look forward to your participation.


Blessings,

Petro

[joelkaki]

joelkaki,

Welcome back, just don't through your temper tantrums, or act childish, and you will be fine. LOL..

HEHE

On on serious note, I welcome your input, maybe we can shed light in this discussion on those verses which puts you at odds with, Gods Word.

Anyway, look forward to your participation.


Blessings,

Petro

thanks for the welcome back anyways.  I hope that we can discuss Scripture in a reasonable manner.  
   Perhaps you could outline for me what you believe about specific end-times events as I did for Paul2, so I can know where you are coming from.

Thanks,
Joel

[Petro]

Lets begin then,

  I'll start with "the Chosen". Who are "the Chosen?"

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

    From this verse it can be established that the "Chosen" are Hebrews, the Jews, and at the time this was written they were above all people that were upon the face of the earth.

Paul2,

As joel has pointed ouy and so have I, you jump to conclusions, to quick, and make assumptions based on your conclusions, and I see that this is your primary problem in trying to untangle these scriptures (in our understanding of them, not as written).

You need to slow down...

In the first verse you post above, I already see a problem with your statement;

 "From this verse it can be established that the "Chosen" are Hebrews, the Jews, and at the time this was written they were above all people that were upon the face of the earth"

The fact is when God made "choice" of them, they didn't even exist, because they were chosen by God in their fathers (begining with Abraham) note,

what Moses tells them reminding them that it was because of Gods Oath which He swore by His own name, since their is none Higher, when He swore to Abraham;

Deut 4
31  (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
32  For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
33  Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
34  Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35  Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
36  Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he showed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
37  And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

Of all other believers in the World God made choice of Abraham, not to salvation nor even to serve Him (God). But to be the progenitor of a people Precious and holy unto God, "which would keep the way of the Lord". And would also become a "mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him"
(Gen 18:18-19)

God made a covenant with Abraham, while Abraham slept at Gen 15:1-18.

Abraham was to be a father of many nations, but;

God made choice between Ishmael and Isaac, chosing Isaac, before He was even born, to be a father to Jacob and Esau, and between them he made choice that Jacob would be the father of the nation of Israel which should serve Him. (Ex 8:1,20, 9:1,13, 10:3)

By know you are begining to wonder where am I goin with this?

I will tell you, the OT elect chosen, saints of God are not the nation, let me state it clearly;

So, While it is true God chose the nation of Israel (Jacob), He never chose than as a pre existing soveriegn nation, but rather formed or created them just as He formed/created Isaac in a miraculeous way from two individuals who were as good as dead (Heb 11:11-12)

He never chose them (the nation) to salvation, He chose THEM to serve Him, and make Him (GOD) known throughout the whole World.

So, we already are derailed in our search for the elect chosen saints  from the begining of the teaching of the Word.

It has been brought to my attention that the words choice, chosen, chose are words that have become corrupted by the secular Septuagint use of these translated words.

The KJV's translation has not helped but perpetuated a corrupt misunderstanding of the key verses in which they are found.

I suggest we back up to Abraham at (Gen 15:18), to begin our search for these, because the promise was made to Him, and all of these cchosen elect, Saints can be traced through the Seed of the Promise, not the nation.  

Rom 9
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


You see Paul, we don't have to go through this excersize, if we just simply trust the Word to bring us to the truth.

Gal 3, tells us who that seed is;

6  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


It is very important to understand that the Gospel was preached to Abraham and He was justified by God, because Abraham believed the Gospel (Note verse 8 above)

God preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, this is why Abrahams faith was in Jesus, and the reason why Heb 11, at verse 26 states, concerning these others who were of the same faith as Abraham believed in Jesus;

26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:..................

The chosen elect, saints are all those whom God holds in His  hand, from the begining it has been so. (Deut 33:2-3)(Jhn 10:29)

So, the conclusion is that only believers in Jesus are the chosen elect, Saints of God, begining with Abraham.

How are they different one from another??

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

joelkaki,

Welcome back, just don't through your temper tantrums, or act childish, and you will be fine. LOL..

HEHE

On on serious note, I welcome your input, maybe we can shed light in this discussion on those verses which puts you at odds with, Gods Word.

Anyway, look forward to your participation.


Blessings,

Petro

thanks for the welcome back anyways.  I hope that we can discuss Scripture in a reasonable manner.  
   Perhaps you could outline for me what you believe about specific end-times events as I did for Paul2, so I can know where you are coming from.

Thanks,
Joel

joel,

Yes,  I am not set in concrete as to the exact order of all things, although I do believe the rapture will occur before the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth, so far I have been able to understand it to occur after the seals at the sounding of the first trumpet at Rev 8:7, then there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, then the end will come, presently there is war in heaven, Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of Glory, until His enemies are nmade His footstool in heaven, then He will return to earth to establish His Kingdom, which begins with great wrath and judgment upon the ungodly, the binding of the old serpent of Rev 12, He reigns as King of Kings on the earth for 1000 years and then Satan is losened to deceive the nations once again, which will fail, and then the end comes just as it is written at ;Rev 20:7-15, followed by the new eternal creation being ushered in.


The discussion herein centers around when the rapture will occur, and who gets raptured??



Blessings,

Petro

[Paul2]

     Joel,

   You may notice some overtones in this post, their not meant for you.

    I don't get mad when people are up front with their believes as you have been. I know we disagree from the beginning and that is fine with me because we both know where we stand.

    I got mad because I have used Daniel's 70 week, over and over but Nobody ever said they believe that the 70th week is history. I mention Antichrist over and over but nobody has said the Antichrist is history. I mention the Rapture and the Second Coming as two different event seperated by at least 7 years, but nobody has told me they consider both events to be one event.

    I get mad when I'm told I'm wrong by those who never bother to tell me what they believe. People take shots at my interpretation but keep their interpretation secret and hidden away from scrutiny and rebutal. To me this is dishonest. I put it all out there, my beliefs for all to see and debate, while others keep silent allowing me to believe they agree in part when they really don't.

    Had I known some believed Daniel's 70th week was History and not in the future, I would have addressed it. Perhaps thats what some fear. If they plainly let their interpretation be known by all, they will be forced to defend their interpretations. To me this is dishonest. I have asked repeatedly that people make their interpretations known but it took you Joel to answer my question for them, and I thank you for that. I wanted to know the views of those debating me, is that so unreasonable to ask? To refuse to let your positions to be known when asked is not being honest to me. Hiding ones belief's is not honest to me.

     I may be honestly childish at times, honestly mad at times. but I'm honest about my beliefs also. My interpretation is attacked by people who hide their interpretation from my counterattack. Thats not being honest or fair. I was told I was being childish for saying it isn't fair to hide a persons interpretations while attacking mine. I'd rather be childish than dishonest. I've been deceived by someone, who to cover their deception, called me childish for asking them to present their interpretation. Why? Because once I know their interpretation I can go on the offensive and counterattack their interpretation, thats WHY!

    Its much easier to stay hidden in the shadows and take shots at those in full light and in the open. Its also Sneaky.

    I don't like cowardly "snipers" who hide their positions and shoot at those in the open who are willing to do battle face to face. (this is refering to Biblical snipers, I want that to be made clear as the U.S.A. is in war time and we need our soldier snipers to find Bin Laden. I have nothing against the real soldier snipers, its part of war. I'd rather see Bin Laden dead than another 3,000 Americans. In real life physical warfare deceptive tactics must be used. We have a real enemy in Bin Laden and must try to stop Him. It would be nice if God would defend America for us but with Abortion, Gay Marriage, and many other things happening I feel its safe to say we might be on our own right now. 9/11 was a missed wake up call that God might not defend us from attack, why should He?)

     I don't get mad with people who disagree with me, I get mad when people are not forth coming, use deception, and refuse to make their beliefs known especially when I request them to make their beliefs known and I'm called Childish for asking!

    I may be "Childish", but I'm "Manly" enough to stand in the open in full view, I'm not a cowardly, sneaky, Sniper hiding their intepretation in the shadows from the one they are shooting at.

    By the way, what happens when a real sniper fires? In real warfare snipers fire and then move away from the location they fired from to escape counterattack. The snipers Position and Location have been discovered, so they re-locate to avoid being attacked themselves.

    Paul2 says, "Now learn the parable of the Sniper."

     There once was a childishly honest man standing in a big field proclaiming to all, all that he could see. As the man stood in the big field he heard questions fired from the darkened treeline at the edge of the field. The questions fired from the darkness inside the treeline when wizzing over the mans head like  bullets being fired by a near sighted sniper. The man in the field offered answers for all to hear as he shouted out toward the darkened treeline where he had heard the questions fired from. The man in the big field never ducked, never dodged, because he didn't know he was being shot at.

     The man in the big field heard another man far away in the big field yell over to him, "Hey! Theres a sniper shooting at you from the treeline over there." The man in the big field walked over toward the treeline to try and spot the sniper that was firing shots at him. The sniper was gone, realizing her position was given away, she had re-located.

    The man in the big field walked back to the center of the field, yelled over a loud thank you to the man across the big field who had alerted him that he was being shot at and to the position of the sniper who was firing at him.

    The man in the big field thought to himself "I was being shot at, I felt something wasn't right. The sniper must have had a silencer. Thats why I couldn't hear the shots. The silencer had allow many shots to be fired at me, its a good thing the sniper is near sighted than far sighted, I was far enough away not to be hit by the shots fired. I knew something wasn't right when I heard the questions and answers wiz by my head, but I never imagined it was a sniper hiding her positions in the shadows.

    The man in the big field just stood there with his jaw dropping down, trying to comprehend all he had been through today. This is where the parable of the sniper leaves off as of now.

     (The wife of the man in the Big field just told him to go to the store, so off to the store goes the man in the big field.)

    Paul2 yells across the big field, "Thanks again Joel, its all clear to me now!

                                                        Paul2

 

[Paul2]

     Petro,

    I'm not saying you are wrong! I'm trying to explain to you that the same verses of Scripture may have more than one meaning depending on the dispensation and age the reader is in.

   I'm showing how the scriptures fit into my interpretation, not yours. You presented you position, which I have not challenged yet, I agree with somethings you have said.

     I also believe there are other meanings for Scriptures which I am trying to present as to how they fit My interpretation. I've been "shot at by a biblical sniper" so I've come to realized this isn't a peaceful discussion, but a falsely polite war we are engaged in. Build your case but allow me the same right to build my case. I'm not done yet presenting my evidence to the Jury yet.

     Now that I have been fired upon, I will take up my offensive position in the open for I am not affraid.

    There is an under lying "tone" you use with me , which is fine by me as long as I have the right to do the same.

    I'll be posting a few questions for clarity for you to respnd to, so your position will be clear for all to see.

                                                         Paul2
                                                            Paul2

[joelkaki]

No problem, Paul2.  I haven't got a problem with people knowing what I believe.

However, let me clarify something.  You said:

I mention Antichrist over and over but nobody has said the Antichrist is history.

I don't think the Antichrist is history, because I don't think Scripture even supports the idea that there is one single person called the Antichrist.  

Joel

[nChrist]

[Paul2]

                                             

                                                       Paul2

[joelkaki]

joel,

Yes,  I am not set in concrete as to the exact order of all things, although I do believe the rapture will occur before the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth, so far I have been able to understand it to occur after the seals at the sounding of the first trumpet at Rev 8:7, then there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, then the end will come, presently there is war in heaven, Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of Glory, until His enemies are nmade His footstool in heaven, then He will return to earth to establish His Kingdom, which begins with great wrath and judgment upon the ungodly, the binding of the old serpent of Rev 12, He reigns as King of Kings on the earth for 1000 years and then Satan is losened to deceive the nations once again, which will fail, and then the end comes just as it is written at ;Rev 20:7-15, followed by the new eternal creation being ushered in.


The discussion herein centers around when the rapture will occur, and who gets raptured??



Blessings,

Petro

OK, thanks, I'm not sure exactly where you stand, but that may be because you have not exactly decided all of your stance yet, as you indicated.  Would you say, though, that you take a generally dispensational outlook on the Bible?

Thanks,
Joel

[joelkaki]

Paul2, so where are you envisioning this discussion goes from here?  I'm not really getting it.  Are you planning on adding to your posts about the chosen, the elect, and all that, or are we supposed to "counter" what you have already said, or what?  Or are we just kind of supposed to discuss the general issue of who is included in the Rapture and when it occurs?

Thanks,
Joel

[Petro]

joel,

Yes,  I am not set in concrete as to the exact order of all things, although I do believe the rapture will occur before the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth, so far I have been able to understand it to occur after the seals at the sounding of the first trumpet at Rev 8:7, then there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, then the end will come, presently there is war in heaven, Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of Glory, until His enemies are nmade His footstool in heaven, then He will return to earth to establish His Kingdom, which begins with great wrath and judgment upon the ungodly, the binding of the old serpent of Rev 12, He reigns as King of Kings on the earth for 1000 years and then Satan is losened to deceive the nations once again, which will fail, and then the end comes just as it is written at ;Rev 20:7-15, followed by the new eternal creation being ushered in.


The discussion herein centers around when the rapture will occur, and who gets raptured??



Blessings,

Petro

OK, thanks, I'm not sure exactly where you stand, but that may be because you have not exactly decided all of your stance yet, as you indicated.  Would you say, though, that you take a generally dispensational outlook on the Bible?

Thanks,
Joel

joel,

I am not a hyper dispensationalist, which would claim, God is thru with Israel,and the Old Covenant promises now belong to the church, in Rom 11, I do see yet future promise the nation of Israel and her restoration,in lite of Jer 31:31,  yet the remanent which will be saved are saved based on the same New Covenant the church is presently a partaker of, they the remanent are included in the Mystery revealed to Paul of which he speaks of at Eph 2.

I can't see, how christians separate them from the church, since, it is clear at Rom 11;

25  ............. that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The union of the two, happens according to these verses upon the fullness of the gentiles, then all Israel shall be saved.

What am I missing??


Blessings,

Petro

[joelkaki]

joel,

I am not a hyper dispensationalist, which would claim, God is thru with Israel,and the Old Covenant promises now belong to the church, in Rom 11,

That is not what a hyper-dispensationalist believes.  Hyper-dispensationalists (ultra-dispies) are those who believe the church started later than Acts 2, some say 9, others 15, others even 28, and they say that the gospels and the epistles (at least many) not written by Paul are not for us, and thus water baptism and the Lord's Supper are not for us.  Horrific if you ask me.  
   What you describe there is the position that some covenant theologians take.

I do see yet future promise the nation of Israel and her restoration,in lite of Jer 31:31,  yet the remanent which will be saved are saved based on the same New Covenant the church is presently a partaker of, they the remanent are included in the Mystery revealed to Paul of which he speaks of at Eph 2.

I think we are pretty much in agreement here.  I believe that the church is included in the promises made to Israel, because ultimately those promises were made with Christ, and thus by our union with Him we partake of them as well.  But I do believe that one day God will save ethnic Jews en masse, but that will not be a separate program from the church as dispies believe, but rather they will be saved and brought into the church.

I can't see, how christians separate them from the church, since, it is clear at Rom 11;

25  ............. that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The union of the two, happens according to these verses upon the fullness of the gentiles, then all Israel shall be saved.

What am I missing??


Blessings,

Petro

I agree, although I do not see that means that they will go back to the land of Israel etc.  But I do believe Israel will be saved en masse, for the sake of God's love for the patriarchs (Romans 11:28-29)



Joel