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Author Topic: The Traditions of Man, the Demise of the Church  (Read 8540 times)
michael_legna
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« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2004, 03:33:03 PM »


Quote
To add communion to the list of requirements for salvation is just one more reason the anathema of God is on that message.

Tell me which of these additional requirements for salvation from scripture don't you agree with or accept.

We have to do works to properly accept the gift

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  
Rom 2:13  

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28
Mat 25:31-46  

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  
Mar 10:17-19  
Mat 5:19-29  
1John 3:15  
Luke 18:18-22  

Repent   
2Co 7:10  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  
Luke 18:9-14  

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
   
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  
Mark 8:35  
Luke 9:24     
Luke 17:33  
John 12:25  
Mar 10:28-30  

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6  
Rom 8:1  

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4
Mat 19:14  
James 5:20  
1 John 3:20-21

Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14

Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 4:17-18  
2 Thes 1:8  
Heb 5:9  
James 1:21  

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  
Matt 24:13  
Mark 13:13  
1 Tim 2:15
1Ti 4:16  
Rom 2:7

Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12  
1Ti 6:19
Phi 2:12  

Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21  
Mark 16:16  
John 3:5
   
We have to believe in His name   
Act 4:12
1 Cor 6:11     
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
michael_legna
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« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2004, 03:36:55 PM »

A basic problem is that the RCC thinks it IS THE CHURCH! It is NOT!!! and neither are Protestants. The CHURCH is the "Body of Christ" and consists of all of the blood-bought saints from the past and now. In short, it is all who have trusted Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life. IT makes no difference whatsoever whether they are catholic, protestant, non-denominational, black, white, female, male, bond, free, etc.

The church of the Lord Jesus Christ "ARE PEOPLE!!!"

aw

You can belong to theChurch without being a declared Roman Catholic.

But the Church is not the people.

Christ established a Church that has a hierarchy of Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons.

It is a physical entity that we can appeal to when disagreements arise between brothers.

It has been given authority to bind and loose on earth as in heaven.

These things all make the Church something different from a loose congregation of Christians.  Where is such a body if not in the Catholic and or Orthodox Churches?
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
michael_legna
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« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2004, 03:41:59 PM »


This post is aimed at the eronious practices of the 'church'. The celebration of pagan rituals like christmas and others are just a few examples. Can anyone prove that christmas is indeed scriptural and prove that it is Yahoshua's birthday? I would like to see it if you can.

Who cares if it is the correct date.

Who cares if it used to be pagan.

Paul taught us that even eating from the table of food offered to an idol is nothing if we know the idol is nothing.

Christians who celebrate Christmas as a way to honor and worship the Lord Jesus Christ are no different than those who follow Paul's instructions.

The same goes for Easter and all the other celebrations.

No one might be tempted to say that with that approach one coudl justify anything - and they would be right.

We have a liberty under the new covenant.  We are not fulfilling the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.  God wishes us to worship Him.  It does not matter how specifically, only that we do.  In fact God has told us He does not want sacrifices but mercy.  He would rather we fulfill the law through love then get tied down in literal legalism over dates and rituals.  That Christ's sacrifice made this new economy of salvation possible is the true message of the Gospel.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 03:46:14 PM by michael_legna » Logged

Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
Paul2
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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2004, 04:16:57 PM »


Quote
To add communion to the list of requirements for salvation is just one more reason the anathema of God is on that message.

Tell me which of these additional requirements for salvation from scripture don't you agree with or accept.

We have to do works to properly accept the gift

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  
Rom 2:13  

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28
Mat 25:31-46  

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  
Mar 10:17-19  
Mat 5:19-29  
1John 3:15  
Luke 18:18-22  

Repent   
2Co 7:10  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  
Luke 18:9-14  

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
   
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  
Mark 8:35  
Luke 9:24     
Luke 17:33  
John 12:25  
Mar 10:28-30  

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6  
Rom 8:1  

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4
Mat 19:14  
James 5:20  
1 John 3:20-21

Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14

Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 4:17-18  
2 Thes 1:8  
Heb 5:9  
James 1:21  

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  
Matt 24:13  
Mark 13:13  
1 Tim 2:15
1Ti 4:16  
Rom 2:7

Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12  
1Ti 6:19
Phi 2:12  

Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21  
Mark 16:16  
John 3:5
   
We have to believe in His name   
Act 4:12
1 Cor 6:11     


    This is all we have to do to earn our free gift?

    Sounds like alot of work to me.

    The thief on the cross next to Jesus, the one He told today you will be with me in paradise. Which of the following from your above list of requirements for accepting the "free gift" of Salvation did the thief complete and what did the theif not complete?

    If the thief received Salvation as promised by Jesus, look at what he did to receive his "free gift" of Salvation. The thief wouldn't have made it according to your list. Jesus saved the thief by His faith and confession alone. The thief accepted Christ, confessed Christ and was saved by Christ that very moment of his confession and guarenteed Salvation that very moment when Christ answered him. If it was possible for Jesus to save the thief already nailed to a cross he can save anybody who believes and confesses him even in the last hours of a persons life. You can't "EARN" a gift, it would become a "Reward" and Salvation is not a reward, its a gift.

                                                         Paul2  Cool
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Pastor Bruce
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2004, 11:19:25 PM »

I think that some of today's churches tend to try and appease the crowd, and some even dilute the truth, as referred to in ACTS 20:29,30.  Also, some churches tend to celebrate the holy Communion as a "side bar", or as an incidental.

In our church, we try and make Communion a very precious and special time of celebrating remembrances of Jesus, who He is, what He does and what He will do.

We also believe in the Greek definition of the word remember.  "To bring up from a sitting or fallen position."   We speak about how flesh cannot live with blood, and when we take the bread, we must also take the juice to make it whole, and that we must remember Jesus from our fallen position so that, through Him, we will also be made whole in Him.  We also encourage all of our members, to NOT partake of the emblems if our hearts are harboring any negatives towards our fellow man, as it is best to pass until such time as we have properly aligned our hearts once again to our Savior.

We are solemn, we are very respectful and we are tremendously joyful that He loves us enough to let us have that time for Him.

I really didn't mean to write a book here....sorry.

In Christ,
Pastor Bruce
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 11:21:39 PM by Pastor Bruce » Logged

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ebia
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« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2004, 02:35:10 AM »

Quote
This is all we have to do to earn our free gift?
No - its what you are expected to do to accept it.
Even if you managed to do everything listed above perfectly, it wouldn't be anything like enough to have earned it.

Quote
The thief on the cross next to Jesus, the one He told today you will be with me in paradise. Which of the following from your above list of requirements for accepting the "free gift" of Salvation did the thief complete and what did the theif not complete?
Quite a few if you'd bothered to stop and think about it.
 
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"You shall know the truth, the truth shall set you free.

Christ doesn't need lies or censorship.
michael_legna
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« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2004, 07:33:31 AM »


Quote
   This is all we have to do to earn our free gift?

    Sounds like alot of work to me.

Actually to follow instructions on how to receive a gift is not work nor does it earn you the gift.

Think of a child whom you give a helium balloon.  You tell them to hold on tight and not let go.  If they do this they accept and keep the gift.  They still did not earn it they simply followed the directions you gave them, they obeyed lovingly.  If they do not, they lose the gift.

Quote
 
The thief on the cross next to Jesus, the one He told today you will be with me in paradise. Which of the following from your above list of requirements for accepting the "free gift" of Salvation did the thief complete and what did the theif not complete?

If the thief received Salvation as promised by Jesus, look at what he did to receive his "free gift" of Salvation. The thief wouldn't have made it according to your list. Jesus saved the thief by His faith and confession alone. The thief accepted Christ, confessed Christ and was saved by Christ that very moment of his confession and guarenteed Salvation that very moment when Christ answered him. If it was possible for Jesus to save the thief already nailed to a cross he can save anybody who believes and confesses him even in the last hours of a persons life.
                       

This is a common mistake made by those who don't understand the instructions made clearly in the Gospel.  Not all of them need to be accomplished.  You just must do them given the opportunity.  For example - you don't have to be baptized with water if you have no water available, but you can be baptized by intent if you would willing be baptized by water were the act possible.  The thief therefore fulfilled most of those on the list by intent.  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
Emulate the Saints
Work Out Our Salvation
Be Baptized

(all of which he would have done had he known they were instructed)

He in fact did some of them directly and literally.  He repented, confessed his sins, he  and confessed Christ as savior.  Thus he:

Followed Christ
Did the Will of the Father
Loved God and Mankind
Kept the Commandments 
Repented   
Was Humble
Was Converted
Obeyed the Gospel
Controled his Words
Endured
Believed in His name

Considering his predicament he certainly:

Suffered Persecution for Righteousness   
Lost Attachment to Our Earthly Life 
Live a Godly Life 
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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2004, 01:09:03 PM »


This post is aimed at the eronious practices of the 'church'. The celebration of pagan rituals like christmas and others are just a few examples. Can anyone prove that christmas is indeed scriptural and prove that it is Yahoshua's birthday? I would like to see it if you can.

Who cares if it is the correct date.

Who cares if it used to be pagan.

Paul taught us that even eating from the table of food offered to an idol is nothing if we know the idol is nothing.

Christians who celebrate Christmas as a way to honor and worship the Lord Jesus Christ are no different than those who follow Paul's instructions.

The same goes for Easter and all the other celebrations.

No one might be tempted to say that with that approach one coudl justify anything - and they would be right.

We have a liberty under the new covenant.  We are not fulfilling the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.  God wishes us to worship Him.  It does not matter how specifically, only that we do.  In fact God has told us He does not want sacrifices but mercy.  He would rather we fulfill the law through love then get tied down in literal legalism over dates and rituals.  That Christ's sacrifice made this new economy of salvation possible is the true message of the Gospel.

You are in error. It does matter. Everything matters and when people take on the belief that 'it's ok as long as you do it unto Him' is one of the main reasons the body is in the shape its in.

Isaiah 1

1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for YHWH hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken YHWH, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

1:9 Except YHWH of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

1:10 Hear the word of YHWH, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our Elohim, ye people of Gomorrah.

1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith YHWH: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken it.

1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

1:24 Therefore saith the Master, YHWH of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellers as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake YHWH shall be consumed.

1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.

1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Verses 13 and 14 cover what He thinks of christmas, easter, and any other pagan ritual people who claim to be His participate in.

I would like to know what verses you are talking about concerning the teachings of Paul.

One more thing concerning this chapter. The Holy Spirit has revealed this to me and others I know as the current condition of the modern 'so called' new testament church. And the 'whole head that is sick' are the pastors over the flocks. And the 'whole heart is faint' is the flock. Verse 6 gives a complete diagnosis of the 'church'.  

I'm not trying to stir up strife, but I must do as He instructs me to do. I pray you and I find the truth.

Strong Defender
« Last Edit: March 28, 2004, 01:28:59 PM by Strong Defender » Logged
michael_legna
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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2004, 01:37:21 PM »


This post is aimed at the eronious practices of the 'church'. The celebration of pagan rituals like christmas and others are just a few examples. Can anyone prove that christmas is indeed scriptural and prove that it is Yahoshua's birthday? I would like to see it if you can.

Who cares if it is the correct date.

Who cares if it used to be pagan.

Paul taught us that even eating from the table of food offered to an idol is nothing if we know the idol is nothing.

Christians who celebrate Christmas as a way to honor and worship the Lord Jesus Christ are no different than those who follow Paul's instructions.

The same goes for Easter and all the other celebrations.

No one might be tempted to say that with that approach one coudl justify anything - and they would be right.

We have a liberty under the new covenant.  We are not fulfilling the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.  God wishes us to worship Him.  It does not matter how specifically, only that we do.  In fact God has told us He does not want sacrifices but mercy.  He would rather we fulfill the law through love then get tied down in literal legalism over dates and rituals.  That Christ's sacrifice made this new economy of salvation possible is the true message of the Gospel.

You are in error. It does matter. Everything matters and when people take on the belief that 'it's ok as long as you do it unto Him' is one of the main reasons the body is in the shape its in.

Verses 13 and 14 cover what He thinks of christmas, easter, and any other pagan ritual people who claim to be His participate in.

I think you miss the entire point of Paul's teaching concerning idols and most of the point of the Gospel.

Your implied understanding of Isaiah is as the Jews would have seen it while they were under the letter of the law.  It is not covering "what He thinks of christmas, easter, and any other pagan ritual people who claim to be His participate in." but it covers how He used to see this issue under the old covenant.  We are under a new covenant where there is no need to adhere to a legalistic interpretation of anything anymore.

God desires mercy and not sacrifice, and Jesus taught us that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.  These specific example (among many others) and the general instruction that we fulfill the spirit of the law through love means we are freed from a legalistic interpretation of the law.  This liberty allowed the early Church to move the day of celebration and worship from the seventh to the first day of the week.  In comparison the day we celebrate Christmas on is relatively minor.

Quote
I would like to know what verses you are talking about concerning the teachings of Paul.

The verse I refered to earlier and some I alluded to in this post are as follows:

1 Cor 8:4-13 refering to it being ok to eat meats offered to idols as long as our faith is strong enough and we do not lead tohers astray whose faith may not be strong enough to differentiate.

Matt 9:13 and Matt 12:7 discusses the idea from the Old Testament (Hos 6:6) where God tried to tell us he didn't want legalistic slaves trying to live up to the letter of the law but loving children who look to please God in anyway not concerned with the tithe of mint and cummin (Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42)

Mark 2:27 and the verses discussing healings and other good works on the Sabbath show us that God is less concerned about what day we celebrate than the fact that we do celebrate.

Rom 14:4-8 Where it discusses the honoring of one day above another.

Matt 22:37-40 and a host of others teach us that love fulfills the law.  That is what Christ meant when He said He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill.  He fulfilled it through His perfectly sinless life and sacrifical death and He taught us how to fulfill it through love.  

But we do not fulfill the letter of the law even then for Paul teaches us that the letter of the law is death but the spirit is life.  So it all ties back to the idea that God desires mercy not sacrifice.  We are at liberty and our intentions matter so much more than our ritual.

Quote
One more thing concerning this chapter. The Holy Spirit has revealed this to me and others I know as the current condition of the modern 'so called' new testament church. And the 'whole head that is sick' are the pastors over the flocks. And the 'whole heart is faint' is the flock. Verse 6 gives a complete diagnosis of the 'church'.  

Finally, I do agree that your whole argument of a slippery slope (that you discuss in your first paragrpah and n this last)has some merit.  Not because of how we celebrate but what we celebrate.  We must be ever vigilant to make sure it is the Church absorbing the pagan holidays and not the pagan holidays absorbing the Church.  That is where your concern that "the main reasons the body is in the shape its in." is definitely applicable.  But I do not see that as the source of the problems today, though it is one to constantly consider.   I feel the problem with a sick head and a faint heart is due to worldliness, we are doing a worse and worse job of raising our children to detach themselves from the things of the world (except for me that is - I don't have any children that is why I am an expert at how they should be raised  Grin).  This has led to lower attendance at Church and fewer entering the ministry.  The pleasures of this world are what is causing a weakness in the Church.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2004, 01:39:50 PM by michael_legna » Logged

Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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