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Author Topic: The Traditions of Man, the Demise of the Church  (Read 8634 times)
Come passion
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2004, 06:45:32 PM »

you know what really suprised me - is when "christian bookstores" started selling "lord of the rings" and such like it.  Desiring to please men and themselves more than YHWH.

Galatians 1:
  10.  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
 
HIS command - this is how YHWH feels about witchcraft, sorcery, and such like it.

Deuteronomy 18:
 10.  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
 11.  Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
 12.  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
 13.  Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.


Paul and Barnabas - this is how they felt about it!

Acts 13:
 6.  And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
 7.  Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
 8.  But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
 9.  Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
 10.  And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
 11.  And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12.  Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

what happens to those partaking and condoning such?

this is the harlot -

Revelations 18:
 23.  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee (notice this - the light once did shine there); and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

what else will happen -

Revelations 21:
8.  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

pretty much says it - i wouldn't want to be caught dead condoning such -

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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2004, 07:10:03 PM »

Man can not bring about the demise of the church.

It is Christ's, He is the head of the church His body. He bought and paid for it.  No amount of adulterations of the truth by man will ever bring about its demise. God's will be done.

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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2004, 12:27:47 PM »

you are correct in that there is a church that is HIS body that HE is the head of.  If HE is the head and they follow HIS lead - it is safe to say they won't displease HIM in unrighteousness - for no unrighteousness should be found in HIM.  i do say however that there are many groups calling themselves the "church" and saying HE is their head and they continue in fornication and adultery with the world (Babylon) - these groups are following after the traditions of man, and the world - it is their demise - i believe Strong Defender was speaking of.  

Ephesians 1:
20.  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
 21.  Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
 22.  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
 23.  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2004, 01:18:07 PM »

The American Church for the most part has become the First Church of Babylon. There are a few exceptions though.

Many churches have sold out when they accepted the 501(c)3 status and became a corporation with a board rather than a "Church' with a board of elders to govern. Many churches have replaced God's Word with psychology, or mixed psychology with the Word. Many churches have become so "seeker friendly", that they are preoccupied with nickles, numbers, and noses. Many churches will not even mention a word about hell, and/or sin. They don't want to damage a person's "self-esteem".Most in churches today walk, and talk like the world. There's not a dime's worth of difference between the two. The sad part is when they say,"We are just saved sinners".( so do "saved sinners" go to heaven while "unsaved sinners' go to hell?)

The falling away has been occurring right before our eyes!

The good news is that Jesus has a remnant who will not be joined with a harlot. There are thousands across the land who have come out of her and will not indulge in her idolatries.

The broad way leads to destruction, but the narrow way to life eternal.

Yes, there are 7,000 who have not knelt down to Baal.

Psalm 119
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2004, 02:35:10 PM »

you are correct in that there is a church that is HIS body that HE is the head of.  If HE is the head and they follow HIS lead - it is safe to say they won't displease HIM in unrighteousness - for no unrighteousness should be found in HIM.  i do say however that there are many groups calling themselves the "church" and saying HE is their head and they continue in fornication and adultery with the world (Babylon) - these groups are following after the traditions of man, and the world - it is their demise - i believe Strong Defender was speaking of.  

Ephesians 1:
20.  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
 21.  Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
 22.  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
 23.  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

you are correct in that there is a church that is HIS body that HE is the head of.  If HE is the head and they follow HIS lead - it is safe to say they won't displease HIM in unrighteousness - for no unrighteousness should be found in HIM.  i do say however that there are many groups calling themselves the "church" and saying HE is their head and they continue in fornication and adultery with the world (Babylon) - these groups are following after the traditions of man, and the world - it is their demise - i believe Strong Defender was speaking of.
"you are correct in that there is a church that is HIS body that HE is the head of.  If HE is the head and they follow HIS lead - it is safe to say they won't displease HIM in unrighteousness - for no unrighteousness should be found in HIM.  i do say however that there are many groups calling themselves the "church" and saying HE is their head and they continue in fornication and adultery with the world (Babylon) - these groups are following after the traditions of man, and the world - it is their demise - i believe Strong Defender was speaking of. "


True. It is the demise of false Christianity and man made religion that will truly come about. God's will be done. The true church in Christ will be. God's will be done.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 02:38:47 PM by ollie » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2004, 01:01:14 AM »

Every whore was once a virgin. Nobody was born defiled. Born into a sin nature, yes, but not turning tricks right out of the womb. What was once pure, what was once the 'body', is now turning tricks. Accepting the world into their churches. Celebrating that which is evil, because, they say 'He understands what we mean by our celebration'......total and complete compromise. Whores.

You say 'It is the demise of false Christianity and man made religion that will truly come about'. False doctrines are what they are. That's why they cannot be and never will be 'the whore' spoken about in the word. Those were perverse and never pure. They were never virgins.
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2004, 02:37:09 AM »

While I am NOT RCC, I find myself very uncomfortable when reading or talking about a specific denomination's practices or problems.  

I, personally, would rather obey the scripture:
1) lift up the name of Jesus
2) Preach the gospel
3) Make disciples of all men/women
4) answer questions concerning the hope within me.
5) discuss the Bible with accuracy, as best I can...

I have discovered that persons who really read and study the Bible, generally reach a point where they either begin working hard to 1) reform the fellowship they are attending and the denomoination of attendance OR 2) move to a different Bible-teaching fellowship.  

When I read the Scriptures, I see the local church is simply an assembly of the local believers who work and fellowship together to share the gospel with their community.  I see absolutely nothing in the scriptures supporting the building of mass denominational organizations that soak up money, manpower, resources for things that are NOT Gospel oriented.  If the hierarchy of the denominational organization does not place the maximum $ of persons and resources/money "on the streets," I begin to suspect the organization of losing its focus. this description includes RCC and many old line denominations.  when those same denominations begin to preach and spend their efforts at social change and ecology, instead of preaching the uncompormising message of Christ Crucified and Risen, the soon and coming Lord of Creation, I begin to suspect a severe loss of focus.  

The purpose of the Church is to be salt among the society of rotten unbelievers, slowly changing some of the unbelievers NOT changing the society of unbelievers...  the Church is mandated to change society one new birth at a time.  What good will it do someone to make them a more honorable and more productive member of society IF I NEGLECT TELLING HIM/HER ABOUT THE NEW LIFE CHANGE THAT IS FOUND IN CHRIST???  Mathew 7:21-23

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« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2004, 01:50:13 PM »

Here is an interesting article saying that many others are realizing about the "church" - i say that speaking of the harlot not the bride.  The peoples eyes and ears have been opened. For your encouragement as well.

RE: "OUT OF CHURCH" CHRISTIANS
-by Andrew Strom.
I am writing on a rather unusual topic today. On Monday night (31 March) I was invited onto a Christian Radio show in New Zealand to discuss the growing numbers of "Out-of- church" Christians in the West - people who have left the churches for various reasons but still claim a strong Christian faith. It was a very interesting night, and the phones ran hot.

This "Out-of-church" phenomenon has now grown so large that books are being written about it. In fact, several years ago I heard an estimate that there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of such Christians just in our largest city (-Auckland) alone. And I believe it is the same right across the Western nations. I have personally come into contact with literally hundreds of such people. The surprising thing is that they are often the most committed kind of Christians - praying, insightful, deep- thinking. Yet they have grown tired of "playing the game" inside our church system and have opted out. Often their involvement goes back many years. In fact, they had commonly been leaders of various kinds.

But now they have left. Why? The church obviously finds this a very difficult thing to explain or deal with. The usual accusations are often trotted out: "So-and-so has been hurt and has a root of bitterness". Or they are in "rebellion". Or they are "not a team player". Or they are "backsliding".

But if you talk to these people you will often find that they have been sitting in church for years and years, and they simply cannot stand to sit and watch the same old game being played any more. The LACK OF GOD is what gets to them - even in our most "Spirit-filled" churches. WHERE IS GOD IN ALL OF OUR ACTIVITY? Surely this is not the way it is supposed to be?

New fads and programs come and go, but the mediocrity and LACK OF GOD just seem to go on forever. And so quietly, sometimes without anyone even noticing, they slowly slip out the doors - never to return. Some have even told me that they felt God "calling them out". Others simply felt they couldn't stay there anymore. The state of the church weighed upon them more than words could say.

Very often they did the rounds of other churches, hoping against hope that they would find a place that felt "right" in any way. (-Though most of them are not "church-hoppers" by nature). But the places they visited never seemed any more "right" than the place they had left. And after a while it just seemed easier to stay at home with God.

As I said earlier, most of these people have not given up on Christianity at all. It is today's church system that they have given up on. And we are talking about large numbers here. Thousands are already opting out. And many feel like they are "waiting" for something.

Some of these people have started up home-fellowships. Or they meet with other couples on a casual basis. But many meet with nobody at all, and they consider themselves in a 'Wilderness' place - alone with God. (-Very common).

I was asked several weeks ago by a pastor whether I agreed that what is happening could be a 'move of God'. That is a pretty radical thought. Many leaders would think the opposite. Because anything that leads people out of "their church" can't be of God, can it?

Hmmmm. All I know is this: The concept of going through a 'Wilderness' just before entering the 'Promised Land' is totally Scriptural. In fact, it is right through the Bible. Even Jesus went through such a wilderness time.

But it is not possible to stay "alone" forever. Some day, if these people are going to be part of a new move of God's Spirit, they are going to have to come out of their wilderness and become part of the "BODY" that Jesus brings together - the 'new wineskin' that will come with this new move of God. Otherwise they could miss out. That is the great danger.

I'm sure there are many on this List with comments or testimonies relating to this topic. I would love to hear from you. It really is becoming a significant issue in the church.

God bless you, my friends.

Kindest regards in Christ,

Andrew Strom.

here is a link if you feel like reading more: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/0-house-churches.html




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« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2004, 02:40:10 PM »

Here are some of their testimonies - of why they left.


"OUT-OF-CHURCH" CHRISTIANS - A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON
-by Andrew Strom.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My "Out-of-church Christians" article got the biggest response I have ever had from anything I ever published. I was deluged with hundreds of emails for weeks. Below this huge response is discussed, along with a sampling of these emails.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"OUT-OF-CHURCH" CHRISTIANS - A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON
-Andrew Strom.
What a response! Ever since we published that article on "Out-of-church" Christians, I have been inundated with emails about it. It seemed to be going round and round on the Internet because many were from people who are not even on our own List. So many heart-felt stories from people who still love Jesus but have left the churches (-forever, in many cases). Quite an eye-opener, really. This issue is so much bigger than many of us have realized. I don't think a lot of leaders have any clue how many Christians are simply opting out of "organized religion" today. It is quite staggering.

I got a bit of a shock because a Webmaster from France wrote to me saying he had translated the article into French. I started getting email requests saying things like "subscribe a voir le site eglisedemaison.be" and so-on! Which just shows you that this "Out-of-church" thing is a huge issue right through the Western world. Everywhere, people are hungering and thirsting for the REALITY of God, and sadly not finding it in our churches.

Many of the stories people have been sending me are so honest and heart-rending, it really makes you realize that things simply cannot go on the way they are. GOD CHANGE US!! Shake us, transform us, move upon us again in Reformation and Revival power! We cannot go on this way - we really can't.

Much of Christendom has become a "machine" that simply grinds on and on, whether God is present or not. (And I speak here of the "Spirit-filled" churches just as much as the others). Surely the number of genuine Christians who are leaving (in their droves) tells us that we are in some kind of CRISIS?

I have been getting so many responses that I have had difficulty keeping up with them. To give you an understanding of just how "global" this phenomenon is, here is a small sampling to give you some idea:

From: Ian (-Scotland):
"We were formally leaders in our local fellowship, but for various reasons found ourselves outside of the established church... Your estimate about the number of people in this position does feel about right. I have been in contact with one man in London who has a mailing list of four thousand. I have heard that estimates would put the total as being greater than those that are still in 'Church'. But due to the nature of being 'out of church', it will be very difficult to quantify."

From: Pastor Jim C. (-USA):
"In my estimation, in regard to the numbers involved per capita, New Zealand has the sniffles and America has full blown pneumonia."

From: Mary (-USA)
"You would be VERY surprised at the number of VERY high-level, gifted and mature Christian leaders who are NOT attending regular church here in Southern California. Jim and I hosted a care group about 7 years ago with 15 couples. Only 3 of them still attend church."

From: Thomas (-USA):
"I and my family are some of the, I believe, millions who have left the church system or have been called out by God into the "wilderness.""

From: Mike (-Vineyard Church, UK):
"Just read your piece on 'Out of Church Christians'. Amazing - I've been getting an increasing sense that this is what is going on around us here in the UK. So many fine Christians living effectively outside the Body..."

From: Donnalea (-South Africa):
"This phenomenon has reached our country too. I'm sure that many out-of-church South African Christians have already contacted you..."


Andrew Strom again: I received emails along these lines from Finland, Canada, Australia, America, Scotland, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, England and many other places. All over the world this phenomenon is occurring. The scope of it is staggering - it really is.

God bless you all.

Andrew Strom.





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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2004, 02:40:29 PM »

Come passion,

Great posts. I agree with both of them and hope to see the same results in America soon.

I encourage all reading to study Revelation 17 & 18. After reading it, take a hard look at the modern, so called 'church' and then America. As I read both, I see many traits of both in the chapters presented. We are no longer a nation concerned with righteousness. Riches, yes. Fame, yes. Flesh, absolutely. The shoe fits our nation and 'churches' very, very well. Until people humble themselves and accept the truth that is right in front of our faces, the current condition will only get worse and more and more innocent people will perish. Don't be fooled by the warm, fuzzy feelings of your surroundings. It is just candy-coated poison in disguise.

Come out of Babylon, people. Get out of her now!!!
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2004, 09:36:46 PM »

PawnRaider
 great post
note all you bashers of religions( protistan, cathalic, and baptist or what not.) this is how to get a point across with love and recpect , not this negative stuff i see all over this sight , to me some of you seem angree  Undecided and should pray for your good christian brothers whom you believe belong to satans church not poke fun at them. Undecided and ill pray that you let go of what ever anger you fester to your brothers.

would you like me to say the hail mary  Grin jokeing
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2004, 02:33:20 PM »

Butcha,

Where has anyone been made fun of? Where is the anger you perceive? Have you truly lookied into this matter before answering it? Show me these things in the posts provided and maybe we can solve this misunderstanding. I wish no harm to anyone, but only wish to expose the truth of the matter rather than just sit back and float along in the comfort zone of pacifism. Check out the posts and the scriptures provided.

I pray we both find the truth.
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2004, 12:17:23 PM »


This post is aimed at the eronious practices of the 'church'. The celebration of pagan rituals like christmas and others are just a few examples. Can anyone prove that christmas is indeed scriptural and prove that it is Yahoshua's birthday? I would like to see it if you can.
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2004, 01:44:30 PM »

Strong Defender,

Thank you for your posts, and warnings. You've hit the nail on the head!

Our family came out of the 501(c)3 corporation 16 years ago. Has it been lonely at times yes? Do we regret it, no! Once or twice a year we may go visit a "church" with friends, if we are staying with them. We always walk out grieved. The common denominator is the lack of preaching. You may hear a couple verses read, a joke or two, then rabbit chasing, and you walk out saying, "what did he say?" Our family does not participte in the holidays of Rome either (Christmas, Easter, etc...) which already labels one as an odd duck.

I believe with all my heart, that true believers are entering into perilous days. There is "mass" deception all around. There is a flood coming on the land, not of water, but of seducing spirits. We must stand, and not be swayed to the left or the right. We must walk the straight and narrow path to Zion. The Lord will be a shield to those who walk uprightly.

Psalm 119

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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2004, 03:25:45 PM »


Quote
The RCC's ideas of communion result in the very thing that scripture teaches against- NOT discerning the Lord's body which can result in DAMNATION.

How can the Catholic teaching on Christ being truly present in the eucharist lead to not discerning the Lord's body.  Note that when Paul was talking about this failing he was talking about those who received the bread and wine unworthily.  If Christ is not truly present in the bread and wine, and treating those "symbols" unworthily leads to damnation as Paul is saying then you have Paul praciticing idolatry by placing a symbol in such a high position that disrespecting it leads to loss of salvation.  That is utter nonsense.

Quote
The very idea that one has to be a member of that organization and participate in another heresy (baptismal regeneartion) results in all others NOT being members of the BODY of Christ.

The Catholic Church does not teach that.

Quote
I would gladly receive communion with any cathoic who declares that they are a blood- bought born again child of the King.

But if you deny the presence of the Lord why would they want to have communion with you when you are merely going through the motions over a symbol?

Quote
Belonging to the organization however is absolutely worthless in and of itself.

Any normal organization yes but the Church is an organization established by Christ, the normal rules hardly apply.

Quote
It is NOT the Lord's body! The Lord Himself teaches to do this in "Rememberance of Me until I come."

This is the type of bad doctrine that sola scriptura leads to.  You cannot properly understand the verse on your own because you have not studied Greek and have not had the time to disect and harmonize every scripture together.  This is not your fault it is just too big a job for anyone on their own.

The Greek word for remembrance is anamnesis and is used only 4 times in the New Testament and twice in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuigant).  Each time it either refers to the Eucharist or to a bringing to mind of God of a sacrifice.  This is not a mere do this as a remembering of me, this is a reminder to God of His sacrifice.

Quote
He did not say to s do this to receive eternal life.

Oh but He did.

John 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Quote
To add communion to the list of requirements for salvation is just one more reason the anathema of God is on that message.

First you do not have the authority to place God's anathema on anyone or anything.  You do not speak for God.

Second the list of requirements for salvation (which should really be stated as the instructions we are given for properly accepting the free gift) all come directly from scripture.

(see part two of my reply)

Quote
I guess the fact that Mary is prayed to 7-10 more than jesus should answer many of the questions concerning the piety.

Where do you get this statistic from?   Grin

I think this is what is called an unknowable fact.

Perhaps you think all Catholics do is pray the rosary.  Well I pray every day and I very seldom pray the rosary.  Most of my prayers are from the heart or through reading the psalms.

Quote
I think the latest evidence of the magnitude pf pedopelia and the continued efforts to not make all names public are just further examples of the arrogance of the RCC and proofs that it is not the BODY of CHRIST.

Which evidence is that?  Are you talking about the fact the the problem within the Catholic Church has been shown to be no worse than the population at large or no greater than that of the same problem in the Protestant clergy?  And where do you get the idea that there is a continued effort not to make names public?  The Catholic Church has been more forthcoming than the Protestant Churches.  Think for a moment if the problem is just as bad in the Protestant Churches and there are more Protestants in the US than Catholics we should be hearing more about them.  But we aren't.  that is either because the Protestants are as forthcoming or the press has decided to take advantage of the last acceptable prejudice in the United States - the hatred of Catholics.
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