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DUH
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« on: December 20, 2011, 08:53:23 PM »

Recently I ran across a short book at this link: http://www.inthebeginning.com/books/ecc.htm#Chapter%201   There are a number of controversial subjects discussed in this book "The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy". I would like to open a discussion on these beginning with Chapter 1. I would ask that we not get into the other controversial subjects until we have finished the topic below from Chapter 1.

1.Did the RC Church conscientiously try to hide the Bible from the people - and if so what might have been their motivation?
Read chapter 1 and concentrate on the question posed above before we move on to the questions concerning the Authorized King James Bible

Tyndale "... despised the tyranny of the papal Church, showing his contempt by referring to its priesthood as scribes and Pharisees."Moreover, because the kingdom of heaven, which is the scripture and word of God, may be so locked up, that he which readeth or heareth it, cannot understand it: as Christ testifieth how the Scribes and the Pharisees had so shut it up (Matt 23) and had taken away the key of knowledge (Luke 11) that their Jews which thought themselves within, were yet so locked out, and are to this day that they can understand no sentence of the scripture unto salvation, though they can rehearse the texts everywhere and dispute thereof as subtly as the popish doctors of dunce's dark learning, which with their sophistry, served us, as the Pharisees did the Jews…"     (Tyndale’s New Testament, preface 1534)

Some of my thoughts:
1. My definition of religion... "A lot of man made rules and regulations to control people."
2 For some time I have asked myself if man has intentionally interpreted the Word of God to suit his own purposes. For instance, where in Scripture can one justify the present day church structure?  Hire a Pastor (pref errably one who has graduated from "cemetery" and make him basically the CEO,CFO and chief of all that happens?
3. Set him upon a pedestal and assume that he will be your spiritual guide and be responsible for the way you lead your life. When my dad was on his death bed he said to me, "Bobby, everything will be alright because I always tried to do what the Priest told me. He was a Roman Catholic and I never remember him reading the Word of God. He did profess Jesus as his Lord and Savior but was convinced that his salvation came through "Holy Mother the Church".
4. I went to a Catholic High School (1956-59 and we were discouraged from reading the Bile on our own - only when Father was present..otherwise we used study guide that taught us the interpretation and rules of the church with an "imprimatur". I once asked about this and was told that we should only study the Bible when Father is present as heresies were started by people who read the Bible on their own.

I guess what I am really asking is, Are we doing "church" wrong? Did Jesus really desire that His Body be ruled over by a hierarchy? Why has the Body of Christ become so divided rather than united with Christ as the head? (John 17:23)Who are the ministers - seminary graduates or the individuals within the Body using the Gifts of the Spirit? (1 Corinthians 11-14)
Nuf Sed
 


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Ephesians 2:10 - KJV For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2011, 09:43:09 AM »

I did read the chapter that you asked. And as Solomon learned the hard way (and we should take his lessons to heart) I found it all 'vanities and vexation'. In my humble thoughts, and they are humble, I never got past 11th grade), I'll start with the title of the book "The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy". The word 'Ecclesiastes' is from the Greek, meaning a gathering or assembly. When I read Solomon's book, I take it to mean 'a gathering of what he has learned' or 'an assembly of his trials and errors wrote for the benefit of our learning'. (*sigh, not that we did) 'conspiracy' is taken from that dead language mentioned, Latin; and as close as I could find means 'to breathe in harmony'. Fitting. Taking that meaning to heart, I prefer to 'conspire' with my Lord Jesus. And for that learning, I have to turn to my Bible. And I'm not going to worry myself over someone interpreting the word(s): Gathering, Assembly, Congregation; into the word 'church'; or the word 'elder' into the word 'priest'. These are mans folly and mine too, if I fall in it. And here I'll tell you that I almost did and learned from it, thank the Holy Ghost. OK, I know that you're not asking for a sermon. I read your profile and know that you are very educated and know these things. To your questions:
1. Did the Roman Catholic church conscientiously try to hide the Bible from the people - and if so what might have been their motivation?
I'll direct you to another article concerning the KJV: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/12/king-james-bible/nicolson-text. The article is secular, just as the one you read, but a bit more unbiased. At least in my opinion. This article suggests that the language (English translation) of the Bible was meant to be accessible to all people. I particularly focused on the old cowboy who was saved while in jail because of this Bible.
I do think that the RC church has motivations of their own, to protect their 'hierarchy' most likely. Man is full of vain-glory. We love our traditions and ceremonies. And that would go for all recognized churches. (the whole of Matthew chapter 23 is a good study) Jesus clearly stated in verse 3: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not. And I'll take this with 2 Timothy chapter 3:16-17. 
As for your thoughts: I agree with all my heart your definition of religion. Religion has disappointed me all of my life, tangled up my thoughts and served more to pull me away from Jesus than bring me to Him. I am happier in a relationship with Jesus. But again, I need my Bible to grow. (refer back to 2 Timothy) ~ And we do need fellowship with one another, in Christ.
Man has attempted to intentionally interpreted God's Word to suit himself and no where in scripture can you justify the present church. That's a dog chasing his tail. No matter how much man might try to justify himself using Scripture, he can't; we will all be judged the same in the end. We must work out our own salvation, each of us; by understanding God's Word as it is. For that I need my Faith and my Bible. My salvation is not going to be given me by any church. It will go terrible for those that mislead His children, but it will still go terrible for His children if we allow ourselves to be mislead. God is no respecter of persons.
Are we doing 'church' wrong? If we're 'doing' church, then yes we are. The True Church, The Body (assembly, gathering, group, herd, bunch, flock) of Christ will not be confounded at the end. Jesus is the True Vine and the Only Way, we build on Him, the Rock. Not even the individuals within the Body using the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, those individuals are for our edification, part of the vine, but not THE VINE. They can minister, but they don't save us.
All Scripture is God Breathed, I do not think for a minute that God would allow His Word to be 'lost in translation'. Man's knowledge is foolishness; vanities and vexations. Jesus is Wisdom. If we take the Bible as a 'whole work' go back to the original sin, God's first commandment to man was not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. We've gone downhill ever since and are still eating it.
I love to study and am interested in history, I read just about everything I see when it concerns the Bible. But I always keep in my heart and mind, my Bible; first and foremost in learning. And I trust my Lord to give me understanding.
Thank you for this discussion! I hope it helped in any small way.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 09:47:17 AM by TreeBug » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2011, 11:42:49 PM »

I don't have the time to read another book right now, but I do have a couple of opinions on the subject matter in your post. Yes, I think that various churches have tried to hide God's Word and/or keep it away from the average person. Why? - various church officials wanted to dictate doctrine and what would be done or not done, and they didn't want any interference from God's Word. This, in my opinion, is one reason why there are so many things being done in so many churches that aren't Biblical at all. So, a person reading the Bible for themselves in some churches is dangerous to the health, well-being, and iron grip that various church officials have on their congregations.

An open and honest church trying to do God's Work has nothing to fear from members reading and understanding their Bibles. I think that people should be encouraged in every way to read and study their Bibles. Those churches that act like they have something to hide probably do have something to hide. No encouragement for Bible Study should be a hint that you might be in the wrong church. We should never blindly follow the leader because we might be led astray or off a cliff. The TRUTH is in God's Word, and we should look for it there every single day of our lives.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 11:46:18 PM by nChrist » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 10:10:40 AM »

I agree with much that TreeBug and nChrist said.

I admit that I did not read the entire chapter being spoken of. I read enough of it though that I see it as another commentary on the Bible and it is one that gets into bashing the KJV. While I am NOT a KJV onylist I do look to the KJV as one of the better English translations. Bible bashing (pointing out words chosen as 'errors' in translation) as a whole is nothing more than providing fodder to those that continually search to discredit God's word.

Regardless of what words were chosen or may have been chosen in translation, there will still be those that will manipulate God's word for their own benefit instead of the benefit of the whole and God's glory.

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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