The Lord's Church is NOT an Organization

[aw]

I'm sorry, but I think you are missing the point by comparing the church to an "ORGANIZATION." We are not, but what we are is a "CALLED-OUT" body that is the visible expression of the Lord Jesus Christ in this earth.

We are strangers and pilgrims who are here as Ambassadors for Christ acting under His direction as the Head. If we would simply follow the written instructions from His Word we would function much more effectively.

aw

[unworthy servant]

aw said "I'm sorry, but I think you are missing the point by comparing the church to an "ORGANIZATION." We are not, but what we are is a "CALLED-OUT" body that is the visible expression of the Lord Jesus Christ in this earth."

Sorry, but I am not confused.  I understand that the Scriptures indicated the Elect are to be imitators of Christ and to be a body.  I am pointing out that the "modern church" is not an imitator of Christ, hence the points I raised.  The "modern church" is organized as a corporation which has a board of directors (shortened to "board").  They are a creation of the state since they follow all the guidelines from the state and not Scripture.  They also receive a tax break for following the guidelines of the state and not Scripture.  The "faithful" of the "modern church" expect to receive a benefit from both Caesar and God.  As I indicated, God has a rude surprise waiting for them.  However, had they read the Scriptures and applied them, it wouldn't be a surprise.  

[aw]

Okay, I see your point and mine is that we who know better should follow the biblical instructions and beseechings with regard to who we really are.

What we have, as you have aptly stated, is an organization filled with tares, apostates, and unbelievers who go about conducting religious services while many of the leaders are Sheep in Wolves clothing and false prophets.

It reminds me of where Paul said, "Are you of Apolllos, et.al." The modern church has come right along and done the very things the scriptures warn against us doing.

Thanks for participating in this discussion,

aw

[michael_legna]

Ephesians 1:22, et. al., reveal to us that we are the BODY of CHRIST. We are not an organization, but an organism. We are NOT catholic, protestant, or any denomination.

You can call it anything you want but the fact is the Church must have an identifiable physical presence on earth to fulfill its mission.

We are told to appeal to the Church in Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

How can one do this if the one true Church established by Christ is not something you can go to.  I prefer to call it an organization because it has a defined hierarchy of Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons but if you want to call it an organism feel free.  

But one thing it is NOT, is a loose grouping of local churches. Because that allows someone to be seen as a heathen and publican in one local assembly and simply move on to the next and maybe get a different ruling in the dispute.  If that happens both of these loose assemblies cannot be the true Church as they disagree on a matter that was to be decided by the Church.

[ollie]

Romans 12:3.  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 4.  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
 5.  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
 6.  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
 7.  Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
 8.  Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
 9.  Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
 10.  Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
 11.  Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
 12.  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
 13.  Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
 14.  Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
 15.  Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
 16.  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.


1 Corinthians 12:12.  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
 13.  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 14.  For the body is not one member, but many.
15.  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
 16.  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
 17.  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
 18.  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
 19.  And if they were all one member, where were the body?
 20.  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
 21.  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
 22.  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
 23.  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
 24.  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
 25.  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
 26.  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
 27.  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 28.  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
 29.  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
 30.  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
 31.  But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.




 

[ebia]

No tax free tax status means, No right off on the "faithful's" income tax then the "faithful" stop funding your church/corporation.

I'd just like to point out, that this is an American perspective.  Taxation is different in other countries; here in Australia, there is no tax free status for churches.  In the United Kingdom, it's the Church (or other charity) that can claim the tax back, not the individual giving the money (which seems a much better way of doing it to me).

When did Christ sign up to be "tax free"?

It wasn't on offer.   When did Christ use a computer?

[JudgeNot]

Hmm, Michael;
I’m not so sure we are so “loose-knit” as we might imagine.  After all, we all have the same “Boss”, and I feel sure the Boss knows what is going on with each and every part of His Church – whether it is one of the Protestant parts, a Catholic part or an Orthodox part.

(Now – please DON’T drag me into an argument concerning the differences in churches and which one may be “more right” than others.  I won’t play in that playground.)

My point is – what may look like a real mess to you and me probably makes Perfect Sense to our Perfect Boss.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
I Corintians 1:25

[ebia]

The "modern church" is organized as a corporation which has a board of directors (shortened to "board").  

Having a board of directors is one characteristic of a corporation, but its hardly a defining one.

They are a creation of the state since they follow all the guidelines from the state and not Scripture.

So, if I obey the law of the land, that makes me a creation of the state?    

[Pilgrim]

Ephesians 1:22, et. al., reveal to us that we are the BODY of CHRIST. We are not an organization, but an organism. We are NOT catholic, protestant, or any denomination.

But one thing it is NOT, is a loose grouping of local churches. Because that allows someone to be seen as a heathen and publican in one local assembly and simply move on to the next and maybe get a different ruling in the dispute.  If that happens both of these loose assemblies cannot be the true Church as they disagree on a matter that was to be decided by the Church.

Michael, you got to be kidding! Do you really think that because you have a pope, bishops and priests that your cult is better than Christian churches? Why don’t you explain to us how well your religious order handles child molesting perverted priest who molest helpless little children? We already know the answer, they keep things hushed up and move them to a new location where they molest more helpless children.

Saint Pilgrim

[unworthy servant]

Okay, I see your point and mine is that we who know better should follow the biblical instructions and beseechings with regard to who we really are.

What we have, as you have aptly stated, is an organization filled with tares, apostates, and unbelievers who go about conducting religious services while many of the leaders are Sheep in Wolves clothing and false prophets.

It reminds me of where Paul said, "Are you of Apolllos, et.al." The modern church has come right along and done the very things the scriptures warn against us doing.

Thanks for participating in this discussion,

aw

aw, I tip my hat to you.  At least their are a few noble minded individuals on this forum who can look at the Scriptures and make a proper assessment and judgment of the error of the "modern" church and/or world.

[Psalm 119]

Any church group who operates under the auspices of the 501(c)3 status is an organization. This is a proven fact. When the American Church took "the mark" of the 501(c)3 they exchanged the truth of God's Word for the Lie. When a church (corporation) takes the tax exempt status, they are limited by the IRS what they can and cannot preach from the pulpit. They are no longer governend by Biblical standards, but rather the message of the gospel is dictated by the government.(just look to our northern neighbors in Canada)

However, take the Chinese house church movement....there are millions of Chinese Christians who refuse to be a part of the Three Self Patriot Movement (TSPM) which is the "official state church".They risk life and limb, to be able to worship the Lord in spirit and truth. Many have referred to the TSPM as the "harlot", which they refuse to be joined with.

So in essence the True Church is not an organization. It is governed by Gods Laws not mens.

Psalm 119

[Symphony]

In this week's(Feb. 2) The New Yorker magazine, under a panel cartoon(p. 40):


"I don't belong to an organized religion.  My religious beliefs are way too disorganized."



           

[unworthy servant]

Psalms 119 said "They are no longer governend by Biblical standards, but rather the message of the gospel is dictated by the government.(just look to our northern neighbors in Canada)"

Psalms 119 is thinking.  Good job.

Psalms 119 said "So in essence the True Church is not an organization. It is governed by Gods Laws not mens."

The problem is the modern church does not imitate Christ nor the teaching of Christ, instead they imitate the government.  

However, in Scripture, the body of Christ was "organized" to represent the human body, of which Christ was the head and God was the head of Christ.  You will also, notice that other parts of the body had no right to be separate from the body of Christ (Division/Factions), nor considered more important then any other part of the body.  However, if Pastor C. Lupus, Pastor Rep Tile or So-Called Christian brother came into the body (viruses) the other parts of the body had a duty to remove them from the body.

I will gladly show all Scripture to back up my paragraph, if requested, however, right now I don't have the time.

[hyeguy03]

Alrighty here I am to bust out with my opinion. But first, I want you to know about me. I am a Southern Baptist. I am also the son of a minister. I have grown up in both comfort and extreme poverty. At this present moment I am receiving an education in Riverside, CA.

None of that is to show that my opinion is right or wrong, but merely to give everyone a background of my life.

I have not shame in calling myself a Southern Baptist. Nobody in this denomination would ever state the claim that if one is not a Southern Baptist, then they are not a Christian. Certainly everyone would agree, that whether SB, Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodists, or yes, even Catholic, Pilgrim; everyone would agree that one's salvation bears no weight on what group you belong to.

I will take offense, however, at ANYONE who seems to feel superior in faith to myself because they "meet in someone's home" instead of a church building. Nor do I claim to be the most spiritually mature, however, arrogance over this matter is uncalled for. There is nothing wrong with holding church in a larger building. Praise the Lord that some places NEED larger buildings to accomadate all those who are seeking or being spiritually fed! And the fact of the matter is, no matter where you go in the USA there will be taxes. Property taxes, etc. Do you think the Lord cares if the church gets good enough treatment from the government today as to be able to avoid some of these taxes? Why not look upon this as a blessing. People, in America, have the privilege now of going to church and, as of now at least, the government supports it.

I agree with the statement as well, that Christ's church is not an organization. It is an organism. Living and working to fulfil the commands of Jesus who is the Christ. But you also need to understand that the "Board of Directors", as one poster called them, are there to maintain the upkeep of the building. I hope with ALL of my heart that none of you find this process sinful. Maintenance of any place of worship for Christian's should be like second nature. Wherever we meet, God is there. There is no shame in keeping it beautiful for Him.

Perhaps, I am looked down upon for my choice of association. I am a Southern Baptist. Denominations are NOT sprung forth by the devil. People naturally gravitate to where their beliefs are more commonly held. It is not the work of Satan that, in order to prevent any heretical ideas from breaking up the church, that this body of believers set forth some guidelines as to what they believe. Just because I am a Southern Baptist, however, it is not mandatory that I agree with everything they put forth. In no way do they tell us what to believe. And, although I do not know where you all live, I have lived in Pennsylvania and California, I have never encountered any Christian who did not regard other Christians, no matter what denomination, as their brother or sister in Christ.

It is a shame that this has to be debated. All Christians, no matter where they gather for worship, should all be working toward the same goals: Reach people with the love of Christ Jesus and grow in individual understanding of the Lord and his precepts to become more Christ-like.

God Bless---Mike

[Tog_Neve]

Some other things to note here that are different between a church and a corporation is that a church receives a tax breack that falls under a classification of non-profit.
Do they make a profit?  Technically yes, every church should be putting monies aside for growth, outreach, and other projects and such.  However it is not an organization that is building a war chest to compete with Bill Gates.  
Also since you mentioned a board as in board of directors....I guess that also depends on the church.  I am a member of an Independant Baptist Church.  We have no board of directors, or anything of that nature.  Matters of finance are brought forth to the church family as a whole.  
Another difference is that with a corporation the investors of that corporation receive monies back in the form of dividends or increase in share price.  There are no shares in a church nor are there dividends.  
The analogy of a church with a corporation falls flat when looking at most churches or even most church organizations.  

We are directed to pay unto Ceasar what is due (taxes).  This is for anybody or any organization.  It is not the church which establishes the tax codes, but it is Ceaser.  The tax codes were established to be somewhat fair.  If someone donates to their local charity (non religious) they receive a tax break, a church is a christians charity, because the money in turn generally gets routed to charitable works.  Thus the individual may also get a tax break.  No harm there.  And it is not boasting to claim that as well.  Ceaser provides steps for filing for taxes and donations are a way to earn a break.  I would agree with you if the point were more to someone filling the most they could legally file for, but yet they did not contribute that amount.  (it is easy to do, and our tax prep had mentioned it, but I rejected it).  The gment does not check donations unless they are above a certain amount.  

As far as places of assembly.  I would agree with other comments here that have stated that it does not matter where as long as the Spirit is invited to come in as well.  God will allow His church to grow to however big it needs to be.  The Bible shows us that not only is the church an organisation of like minded people for God's glory, but He provided it for us as well.  It is to be a place of learning for us, a place of fellowship to join with others who believe as we do, it is to be a place of comfort.  Since God provides the church for us also then He will ensure that our needs are met as well.  

I personally do not like big churches.  I prefer smaller services of less than 200.  Although I love to see a good Godly church build up beyond that, and I pray that mine does.  But some people like larger churches for the people or the involvement that particular church may be able to offer that person as far as community work and things like that.  God does not limit the size of His individual churches in the Bible.