Hyper deception, in the visible church...

[Petro]

Since I became a Christian many years ago, I have always held to the belief, that Billy Graham was an Evangelical Minister of Gods Word,  raised up by  Him, to proclaim the truth of Gods word to the dieing massess, and he has so far as I am able to determine.

And, ever since I learned he along with several other well known bible scholars, entered into the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Declaration in March 1993 (thereabouts) I have wondered  what his motivation for this really was.

I didn't see, anything wrong with joining hands with, people of other beliefs, to combat immorality, and evil, unfortunately the document failed to define the words upon which the basis for this declaration was founded on, instead of it being a moral and dignity matter, it was based on common convictions of the Christian faith and mission.

And since faith must always be founded on the words the bible defines, it should have been made very clear these definitions were agreed to by all signatoriers.
Well, this is a secondary issue in as much as this post is concerned.

While discussing this with a friend he actually had the quote which is attributed to Mr. Graham, I wrote verbatim, ref source included, his belief herein is different from the stand point of what I understand to be the teaching of Gods word.
In an interview by McCalls, article entitled "I Can't Play God Any More"; January issue 1978, Pg. 156,

Mr. Graham is quoted in his own words;

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost-were going to hell if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them, I no longer believe that  I believe that thhere are other ways of recognizing the existence of God-through nature, for instance-plenty of other opportunities, therfore, of saying 'yes' to God."

If I have not quoted this right, and someone can correct it, please feel free to do so.

How does this statement, square up with the following verse;

Rom 10
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again,
Mat 24
[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.[/color]
 
Any thoughts??


Blessings,
Petro

[No Deceit]

Petro,

Man indeed has no excuse and ALL know of the true God.  Read Romans 1:18f states this plainly.  We also know from Romans that the Word is and has been preached to all creatures under heaven.

Romans 10:
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
        "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[8]
        Who bring glad tidings of good things!"[9]
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?"[10] 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

        "Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
        And their words to the ends of the world."[11]

Now if Graham is teaching that man can come to Christ through paganism or false religion that would be heresy.  I believe Graham to be a false teacher because of many other teachings that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ and you can read our report on this at http://www.atruechurch.info

May God save you from the deceit of this world.

[Petro]

No Deceit,

Thank you for the information, I will take time to read it.

When you say "our report", what are you referring to??

Are you an author of it.??


Blessings,  
Petro

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here: drop on down to a couple thoughts if you desire?
*****

Petro,

Man indeed has no excuse and ALL know of the true God.  Read Romans 1:18f states this plainly.  We also know from Romans that the Word is and has been preached to all creatures under heaven.

Romans 10:
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
        "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[8]
        Who bring glad tidings of good things!"[9]
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?"[10] 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

        "Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
        And their words to the ends of the world."[11]
******
---First about this above & then about the below.---

John here: The verses that you give need 'serious study'!
What do you do with Rom. 2:14-15? (these are converted by nature alone)

And about Grahm? Souls will be saved by the Word of God, not the messenger! I agree with your comments of Grahm being a false preacher. Yet, that does not stop the Word of God from doing His work. (see Isa. 55:11) Hell will be well filled by false preachers that KNEW better!

---John
******

Now if Graham is teaching that man can come to Christ through paganism or false religion that would be heresy.  I believe Graham to be a false teacher because of many other teachings that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ and you can read our report on this at http://www.atruechurch.info

May God save you from the deceit of this world.

[alex]

Just a small humble thought. God can save whomever He wants, because He is...well...GOD! Judgement of others is not Biblical, nor is it Christian. If one applies the reading of the Bible and the insites found therein to themselves and never to others then one will spend a lot of time repenting, praying, serving, and above all loving. We don't have time to worry, we as Christians must act.
In Christian Love

[John the Baptist]

Hi John here:
All of Gods original 'thinking' creation serve because of LOVE FOR HIM! Love is a gift of a 'perfect' creation. It is a developement of CHARACTER when FINISHED! (one way or the other) Love is MOTIVE. (not feeling) God knew before any were created, what their outcome would be. YET, THE CHOICE IS OURS TO MAKE. (the eternal Ones just knew what that choice would be) And yes, there HAS GOT TO BE A STARTING POINT! One must first be BORN AGAIN in the first place!

First: God knew up front that His first creation of Luciffer would finally choose a path of evil. The covering Cherub over the Ark of God was CREATED, and he was CREATED *PERFECT!
And you CAN BE CERTAIN that ALL OF THE GODHEAD LOVED HIM!! (something like Adam & Eve LOVING Cain, huh? He too had an OBEDIENT start)

So what did they all LACK? The very same as any Born Again RE/CREATED BELIEVER [IN] CHRIST. They all (see Rom. 8:1) were now [in] Christ (Covenant Provisions Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) And they ALL NEEDED TO *DEVELOPE A FINISHED CHARACTER Safe for eternity! (see Na. 1:9-James 1:15 is from start to finish-compare 1 John 5:16-17)

Adam & Eve also were created not good, but VERY GOOD, *PERFECT! What did they lack? Again, CHARACTER! How did the GodHead go about this process of developing their [LAMB LIKE PERFECT CHARACTER OF OBEDIENCE? (see Gen. 3:15 & Gen. 4:6-7)  They (GOD) put a beautiful tree in the MIDST of the Garden of Eden & said, stay away from it! (CONDITIONS to ETERNAL LIFE!)

OK: Now for JUDGEMENT, or JUDGING?? You are just flat out wrong! Wheat & Tares are to be left alone because NO one can read their MIND. (But God alone! & He gives other reasons also) Yet, any PERSON that lives a life contrary to the FAITH is to be judged & 'keyed' out of the earthly & *HEAVENLY record books. See Matt. 18:15-18 & Eccl. 12:13-14 with Dan. 7:10. And Rev. 22:18-19's 'BOOK OF LIFE'!.

There IS ONLY 'ONE' TRUE 'VIRGIN'  Faith! (FOLD) See John 10:16-Eph. 4:5, & Rev. 18:4) And yes, this MEANS in VIRGIN DOCTRINE ONLY!

And again, If any DENOMINATION is NOT doing so? They are DIVORCING THEMSELVES from the Bridgroom Christ!! OPEN SIN is never to go unchecked! That INCLUDES FALSE DOCTRINE denomination/wise, or lack of expelling OPEN KNOWN SIN OR SINNERS. (again READ Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse! Please!!)

If one would read the Master's Word on this 'prayerfully & sincerely' they will [not] come up empty! Scruitinize first, Rev. 18:4, ( eternal life or an eternal death decision!) and John 9:39-41.

(here we see another mission Christ came to do. probation ended for whom? see Matt. 23:38. they had a CLOSED DOOR of probation, see Matt. 25:10, read it all)

I suggest that you might just make a copy of the post if you are sincere, and just keep it on hand for later reading as this all unfolds to you? It will not be long before before the END is here.

----John
*******

Just a small humble thought. God can save whomever He wants, because He is...well...GOD! Judgement of others is not Biblical, nor is it Christian. If one applies the reading of the Bible and the insites found therein to themselves and never to others then one will spend a lot of time repenting, praying, serving, and above all loving. We don't have time to worry, we as Christians must act.
In Christian Love

[alex]

Christ Is Risen!
John, judgement is for God because we are all sinners and therefore have no right to judge others.Yes sometimes unrepentant sinners are asked to leave the Church. But we must not permanently judge them or write them off so to speak. I am not sure if you intend to insinuate that I do not read the Bible, but it does come off that way. I have read the entire Bible,KJV, many portions thousands of times. I am sure much will unfold for me, as much has already. Are you open to that unfolding? I pray you grow in Christ each day.

[joyunending]

So everybody thinks Billy is a false teacher . I read that garbage on the True Church, and I have never seen such hateful garbage in my life.
    You pick and choose all the vengeful things in the Bible out of context, you have a list that goes on forever saying that all of these people are false teachers etc.... there are some on there that I think are wrong, but to list Vernon McGee, and Billy Graham among them is wrong.
          Taking the sentence you gave on Billy, I got the feeling he was saying that those who have never heard the word, that God will have His own way to deal with them.....  That God built into man the 'need' for a God... that there is a longing built into man in the search for something bigger out there,,,,, that we didn't just explode onto this planet, that there is a power far beyond ours that we don't now or never can fully understand,,, but that we search for this power... if we are fortunate enough to have heard the 'good news' and believe on Him,,,, we KNOW  what and who this power is..... if we have NEVER  heard the 'good news' we search for something we can 'worship' be it nature etc.... untill we are told about the 'real' God,, then we have somewhere to go with our worship and the search is over....
        I love how people take something like this and make such a HUGE thing out of it.... who are we to judge??? No one!!! God is judge of the hearts of all of these men who you so quickly put on a list as if you are the judge.....If we would all read our Bibles, take what we know to be true and put these men and their written books, sermons, etc... and compare them,,, not taking this 'true church' thing as the gospel.... use you own hearts and brains,,,, not with revenge as this church preaches but with a longing to really know the truth,,,, if we are wise and have all the book learning in the world, but do not have love, we are as a clanging cymbal!!! Quit clanging and remember why Jesus came here in the first place,,,, not for vengence, not to wipe us all out and kill us because we make a mistake,, but to remind us that all the laws in the world are no good when we don't take the law of love and place it in the center of our lives..... common sense will tell you that this church is a church without love in it at all.......... Sorry to get carried away, but this really got me upset to hear what this thing is saying.... PLEASE!!! Read the Bible for yourselves, and look at the lives of those who they have written on their 'list',,, see the fruit..... then pray for discernment,,,,,,,, Thanks,,, Joy

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
There is a title for the thread. [Re: Hyper deception, in the visible church...] Please do not anyone here take my postings as to be personal. I respond to posts! I don't know anyone on the forum to my knowledge? And I can not, nor have any desire to read minds!  

With that being said, let me clarify:
We ARE EVER TO VIEW OPEN SIN AS SUCH! Any sin & all sin in membership. See 2 Cor. 6:14-18. See John 9:31. See Isa. 59:1-2. See Isa. 58:1. See 1 Cor. 5:3-5. See 1 Tim. 1:20. See Joshua 7:12's last part! (Christless!) See Matt. 18:15-18. See Eze. 33:6-9. STUDY Eze. 9!

The denominations of today are living in OPEN YOKED FILTH, PERIOD!!
If 'one' be an partaker of this, you be the judge? See Rev. 18:4. The verse says that to be yoked in membership makes one a [PARTAKER of her sins] & they WILL BE lost! (unless you think receiving of her plagues are meaning something else?)

Do 'i' need to name the filth? Can one read the printed News? (no offense about being able to read intended!) Does one hear T.V. reports?
Doctrinal trite: Does one still teach the soul never dies, just lives on & on in hell? See Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20 & Obadiah 16!

And does one still cling to the 's'atanic doctrine of 'once saved always saved'. Hell will be occupied well from this foolishness! James 2:20! & verse 24! TRUE BELIEF WORKS OBEDIENCE! Or see Heb. 6:1-6 or 2 Peter 2:19-22.

And Sunday sacredness 'installed' for the COMMANDMENT to KEEP HOLY THE 7th DAY SABBATH! 's'antanic rubbish! Isa. 8:20 & 1 John 2:4 [NO LIGHT!] [NO TRUTH!] and [LIAR!] the Word of God says! All of this old stuff [still] passed off for last day increased knowledge truth, God/Forbid!

NOW: Are there good converted souls who have died who have been in membership with these Harlot 'FOLDS'. Of coarse!
John 10:16. They died [doing] the best that they could 'see'.
And how about today? Read Rev. 18:4 again!  

---John

*******

Christ Is Risen!
John, judgement is for God because we are all sinners and therefore have no right to judge others.Yes sometimes unrepentant sinners are asked to leave the Church. But we must not permanently judge them or write them off so to speak. I am not sure if you intend to insinuate that I do not read the Bible, but it does come off that way. I have read the entire Bible,KJV, many portions thousands of times. I am sure much will unfold for me, as much has already. Are you open to that unfolding? I pray you grow in Christ each day.

[ollie]

Since I became a Christian many years ago, I have always held to the belief, that Billy Graham was an Evangelical Minister of Gods Word,  raised up by  Him, to proclaim the truth of Gods word to the dieing massess, and he has so far as I am able to determine.

And, ever since I learned he along with several other well known bible scholars, entered into the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Declaration in March 1993 (thereabouts) I have wondered  what his motivation for this really was.

I didn't see, anything wrong with joining hands with, people of other beliefs, to combat immorality, and evil, unfortunately the document failed to define the words upon which the basis for this declaration was founded on, instead of it being a moral and dignity matter, it was based on common convictions of the Christian faith and mission.

And since faith must always be founded on the words the bible defines, it should have been made very clear these definitions were agreed to by all signatoriers.
Well, this is a secondary issue in as much as this post is concerned.

While discussing this with a friend he actually had the quote which is attributed to Mr. Graham, I wrote verbatim, ref source included, his belief herein is different from the stand point of what I understand to be the teaching of Gods word.
In an interview by McCalls, article entitled "I Can't Play God Any More"; January issue 1978, Pg. 156,

Mr. Graham is quoted in his own words;

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost-were going to hell if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them, I no longer believe that  I believe that thhere are other ways of recognizing the existence of God-through nature, for instance-plenty of other opportunities, therfore, of saying 'yes' to God."

If I have not quoted this right, and someone can correct it, please feel free to do so.

How does this statement, square up with the following verse;

Rom 10
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again,
Mat 24
[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.[/color]
 
Any thoughts??


Blessings,
Petro

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 20.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If what you attributed to Mr. Graham as saying is true.
It would appear that Mr Graham is in violation of God's word and not scriptural. By their fruits you shall know them.

 Matthew 7:15.  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
 16.  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 17.  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
 18.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 19.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 20.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 21.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 22.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 23.  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mr Graham needs to study his Bible and learn of God's way not Graham's way. If what you quoted him saying is true.

[ollie]

Just a small humble thought. God can save whomever He wants, because He is...well...GOD! Judgement of others is not Biblical, nor is it Christian. If one applies the reading of the Bible and the insites found therein to themselves and never to others then one will spend a lot of time repenting, praying, serving, and above all loving. We don't have time to worry, we as Christians must act.
In Christian Love

By their fruits you shall know them.

[Petro]

Since I became a Christian many years ago, I have always held to the belief, that Billy Graham was an Evangelical Minister of Gods Word,  raised up by  Him, to proclaim the truth of Gods word to the dieing massess, and he has so far as I am able to determine.

And, ever since I learned he along with several other well known bible scholars, entered into the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Declaration in March 1993 (thereabouts) I have wondered  what his motivation for this really was.

I didn't see, anything wrong with joining hands with, people of other beliefs, to combat immorality, and evil, unfortunately the document failed to define the words upon which the basis for this declaration was founded on, instead of it being a moral and dignity matter, it was based on common convictions of the Christian faith and mission.

And since faith must always be founded on the words the bible defines, it should have been made very clear these definitions were agreed to by all signatoriers.
Well, this is a secondary issue in as much as this post is concerned.

While discussing this with a friend he actually had the quote which is attributed to Mr. Graham, I wrote verbatim, ref source included, his belief herein is different from the stand point of what I understand to be the teaching of Gods word.
In an interview by McCalls, article entitled "I Can't Play God Any More"; January issue 1978, Pg. 156,

Mr. Graham is quoted in his own words;

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost-were going to hell if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them, I no longer believe that  I believe that thhere are other ways of recognizing the existence of God-through nature, for instance-plenty of other opportunities, therfore, of saying 'yes' to God."

If I have not quoted this right, and someone can correct it, please feel free to do so.

How does this statement, square up with the following verse;

Rom 10
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again,
Mat 24
[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.[/color]
 
Any thoughts??


Blessings,
Petro

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 20.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If what you attributed to Mr. Graham as saying is true.
It would appear that Mr Graham is in violation of God's word and not scriptural. By their fruits you shall know them.

 Matthew 7:15.  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
 16.  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 17.  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
 18.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 19.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 20.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 21.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 22.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 23.  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mr Graham needs to study his Bible and learn of God's way not Graham's way. If what you quoted him saying is true.

Ollie,

I don't know these statements to be true, I was given a document, with these quotes, attributed to him, I asked the question, if any could correct or corroborate this information.

It is evident to me that he has been giving out the Word of God, in an effective way, whether he is saved or no, I cannot be sure of it,

If theses statements and others are true, actually, some statements on the list, I would not argue with, but others, leave me scrtching my head.

To one From one pragraph of an entire interview, one could take it out of context, however this is the most glaring one that needs no explanation.

I would not call him, unsaved, or heretical, at his age, sometimes the brain doesn't function as it did many years ago, when he could articulate his thoughts more precisely.

One thing I would like to emphasize, is that God can and has used unsaved men in ages past to proclaim the Gospel message, Charles Wesley is one, you would never get this from reading his life story, but, if you read read the life story of one who knew him, intimately, it was evident, his demeanor changed from one of fear of God, to peace and tranquility with the Lord, after a heartfelt commitment, made in the presences of him, the man I believe if my mind serve me correctly was George Whitifeld.

So, in this case I think I need to quick to hear and slow to speak..

Blessings,
Petro

[John the Baptist]

Hi John here:
We moved recently, & the old man can't seem to find all of my doctumented 'savings'. But if one wants information that is documented I will list an address for such. I suspect that some here have perhaps heard of 'The Berean Call'? (Dave Hunt & T.A. McMahon)

By my doing this, please understand that I am in no way endorsing this ministry. Yet, they do print documented facts & keep them on record, if my memory is correct, huh? What I mean about that, is that I have these news clipping somewhere around here myself.

Anyway, the address is: The Berean Call-P.O. Box 7019-Bend, Oregon 97708.

Most will most likely want the site to go to? It is:

www.thebereancall.org

If you contact them, they will most likely send along the documentation on Billy Grahm. (it is open 'World New's' stuff about Catholics supporting his work, & priests who are at the crusades attending to the Catholic 'believers' (?) that come forward. These are followed up by these priests)    

---John
******

Since I became a Christian many years ago, I have always held to the belief, that Billy Graham was an Evangelical Minister of Gods Word,  raised up by  Him, to proclaim the truth of Gods word to the dieing massess, and he has so far as I am able to determine.

And, ever since I learned he along with several other well known bible scholars, entered into the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Declaration in March 1993 (thereabouts) I have wondered  what his motivation for this really was.

I didn't see, anything wrong with joining hands with, people of other beliefs, to combat immorality, and evil, unfortunately the document failed to define the words upon which the basis for this declaration was founded on, instead of it being a moral and dignity matter, it was based on common convictions of the Christian faith and mission.

And since faith must always be founded on the words the bible defines, it should have been made very clear these definitions were agreed to by all signatoriers.
Well, this is a secondary issue in as much as this post is concerned.

While discussing this with a friend he actually had the quote which is attributed to Mr. Graham, I wrote verbatim, ref source included, his belief herein is different from the stand point of what I understand to be the teaching of Gods word.
In an interview by McCalls, article entitled "I Can't Play God Any More"; January issue 1978, Pg. 156,

Mr. Graham is quoted in his own words;

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost-were going to hell if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them, I no longer believe that  I believe that thhere are other ways of recognizing the existence of God-through nature, for instance-plenty of other opportunities, therfore, of saying 'yes' to God."

If I have not quoted this right, and someone can correct it, please feel free to do so.

How does this statement, square up with the following verse;

Rom 10
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again,
Mat 24
[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.[/color]
 
Any thoughts??


Blessings,
Petro

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 20.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If what you attributed to Mr. Graham as saying is true.
It would appear that Mr Graham is in violation of God's word and not scriptural. By their fruits you shall know them.

 Matthew 7:15.  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
 16.  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 17.  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
 18.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 19.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 20.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 21.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 22.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 23.  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mr Graham needs to study his Bible and learn of God's way not Graham's way. If what you quoted him saying is true.

Ollie,

I don't know these statements to be true, I was given a document, with these quotes, attributed to him, I asked the question, if any could correct or corroborate this information.

It is evident to me that he has been giving out the Word of God, in an effective way, whether he is saved or no, I cannot be sure of it,

If theses statements and others are true, actually, some statements on the list, I would not argue with, but others, leave me scrtching my head.

To one From one pragraph of an entire interview, one could take it out of context, however this is the most glaring one that needs no explanation.

I would not call him, unsaved, or heretical, at his age, sometimes the brain doesn't function as it did many years ago, when he could articulate his thoughts more precisely.

One thing I would like to emphasize, is that God can and has used unsaved men in ages past to proclaim the Gospel message, Charles Wesley is one, you would never get this from reading his life story, but, if you read read the life story of one who knew him, intimately, it was evident, his demeanor changed from one of fear of God, to peace and tranquility with the Lord, after a heartfelt commitment, made in the presences of him, the man I believe if my mind serve me correctly was George Whitifeld.

So, in this case I think I need to quick to hear and slow to speak..

Blessings,
Petro

[Petro]

I would like to correct a mistake, i made in my last post, instaed of writing John Wesley, I put Charles Wesley's name by mistake, so John Wesley is who I was refering to;

Now, so as someone won't accuse me of; stating that I said, John Wesley was unsaved while ministering the word of God, let me state that this is not my opinion, but the testimony of the writer of a book, recalling the life and times of one of americas great evangelist, pastor, teacher  Geo Whitfield.

I am recalling this from memory..

I'll refernce the book, when I get a chance to dig it out, I have the book, in e book, format.

From what has been written, Johns own words led this individual to believe he truly was converted, after returning back to England from his trip to america, returning dejected, anb worn out, tired and despairing, questioning his own faith.

It was then that he re deicated his life to God...and a great nchange occured in his life.

Blessings,

Petro

[John the Baptist]

Hi John here:
Does anyone believe in providence? Or Rom. 8:28?

Any how as I was looking for something, I came across some old printed material. And the 'subject' came to my mind of yesterdays post & link. Also because of the much heard word's of ONLY BELIEVE, I will post some more, but this will be first. (all will have my emphasis & will be posted in part only)
******
Los Angeles Times, 2/5/93:
Pope John Paul 11 sought common ground with BELIEVERS in voodoo Thursday, suggesting they would not betray their traditional faith by CONVERTING TO CHTISTIANITY."
******
Next we see:
"It's time for Protestants to go to the shepard (the Pope) and say 'what do we have to do to come home?"
Dr. Robert Schuller, Los angeles Herald Examiner, September 12, 1987  
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This is the one about Billy Graham's Crusade.

--The Catholic publication St. Louis Review 7/12/91--
Catholics Hope Crusade Finds Lapsed Members. The crusade the article referred to was an upcoming Billy Graham Crusade (September 25-29) which was "co-sponsored by the Archdiocese of St. Louis." The article stated that "Other U.S. dioceses also have supported Graham crusades. Archbishop John L. May has sent a letter to priests in the archdiocese encouraging them to participate." (all is from the article)
******

Just an interesting thought about the Great Whore & her Daughters of Rev. 17. What makes a denomination the synagogue of satan? Rev. 3:9?

Notice that Christ DECREED in Matt. 23:38 that.. "BEHOLD YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE". (who took over then when Christ was put out??-try verse 15 ibide.)
But here is the point. We see all of the 'ONLY BELIEVE' teachings of today! Even a forum called Christians unite! It to has these messages galore. (you say great?) Well, why not have the Catholics & the Voodoo's as your brothers then? Or the 'Kin-ship' homosexual Seventh-day Adventist denomination also? and all of these ONLY BELIEVE ones?

Notice this verse in closing. John 12:42-43.

"Nevertheless among the chief rulers also [MANY BELIEVED ON HIM;] (no play belief here, this is fact, it is 1/2 'g'ospel) but because of the Pharisees the did [NOT CONFESS HIM,] least they should be put out of the synagogue; For [THEY LOVED THE PRAISE OF MEN MORE THAN THE PRAISE OF GOD]."  
And again, what is new, God asks?

Believe?? It is no wonder Rev. 18:4 call's for one to leave the filth of today, or stay yoked & be a PARTAKER of it &  be lost!!
But what is the bottom line MOTIVE? True LOVE for our Master! Is it POSSIBLE TO 'REALLY' LOVE CHRIST & STAY YOKED TO THIS STUFF? Hardly . See 2 Cor. 6:14-18!
-----John

Since I became a Christian many years ago, I have always held to the belief, that Billy Graham was an Evangelical Minister of Gods Word,  raised up by  Him, to proclaim the truth of Gods word to the dieing massess, and he has so far as I am able to determine.

And, ever since I learned he along with several other well known bible scholars, entered into the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Declaration in March 1993 (thereabouts) I have wondered  what his motivation for this really was.

I didn't see, anything wrong with joining hands with, people of other beliefs, to combat immorality, and evil, unfortunately the document failed to define the words upon which the basis for this declaration was founded on, instead of it being a moral and dignity matter, it was based on common convictions of the Christian faith and mission.

And since faith must always be founded on the words the bible defines, it should have been made very clear these definitions were agreed to by all signatoriers.
Well, this is a secondary issue in as much as this post is concerned.

While discussing this with a friend he actually had the quote which is attributed to Mr. Graham, I wrote verbatim, ref source included, his belief herein is different from the stand point of what I understand to be the teaching of Gods word.
In an interview by McCalls, article entitled "I Can't Play God Any More"; January issue 1978, Pg. 156,

Mr. Graham is quoted in his own words;

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost-were going to hell if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them, I no longer believe that  I believe that thhere are other ways of recognizing the existence of God-through nature, for instance-plenty of other opportunities, therfore, of saying 'yes' to God."

If I have not quoted this right, and someone can correct it, please feel free to do so.

How does this statement, square up with the following verse;

Rom 10
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again,
Mat 24
[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.[/color]
 
Any thoughts??


Blessings,
Petro