obey leaders?

[Soldier4Christ]

I am reminded in this situation of two children that were raised by the same parents. Let's just say that the parents were definitely lacking in proper parental skills. Upon growing up to the physical age of an adult the one child dwelled on what happened to them refusing to let go of it. They became a bitter person with their thoughts channeled constantly on the bad things. The other child took what happened to them as a learning lesson. A lesson that taught them not to be like that but rather to be a loving person. This child was able to let go of those bad things and to concentrate on that which is good.

To some extent or another we all become leaders at some point in our lives. We have also been followers at different points in our lives. We can choose to dwell on the bad examples we have seen or we can go to that which is good. When it comes to people we will never find the perfect example for us and, yes, that includes pastors. They are human and as such capable of making mistakes, capable of sinning.

We are given a perfect example for us to follow though ... Jesus Christ the only one that has ever been without sin. We can turn to Him and follow Him in all confidence that we are following that which is the right way.

It is about choices. We can allow the evil in our lives to control us or we can turn to that which is good.

[nChrist]

Amen Brothers,

The principles of Biblical leadership work very well in many areas of our lives. The example I think of first is our own home, marriage, and raising our children. The first key is yielding to Christ. Let Him be the head of the home. If the Biblical instructions are followed, there will be real love in the home between the husband and wife, and the children will be brought up in the love and nurture of the Lord.

It's amazing how well the instructions of the Bible work. They're timeless and lead to much more joy in this short life. We all have Biblical roles, and Christ is the head of them all. Our parts aren't easy, but God will help us if we ask Him to.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Brother Jerry]

Amen.  I know I remember my household before my wife and I submitted our marriage to Christ...and I know what it is like now...and WOW what a difference.

[margalicious]

For me, we have to obey the God's mandated leader. Because if we don't, it seems that we are disobeying God.
But there are still measures of when to obey the leader. Am i right?

[Soldier4Christ]

Hello and welcome to the forums.

The measures are there and they are great not just minor. We are to follow God and God alone. We can follow God alongside that person but it is God that we must follow and not man.

[Salesman42]

The terms "pastor", "elder", "shepherd", "bishop" all relate back to the same person who is one of the eldership.  An elder my become a preacher and a preacher may become an elder.

They should not be confused with an evangelist. Sometimes preacher/Evangelists are called "pastors" but unless they fulfill the qualifications of the elder as given by Paul to Timothy referring to them as a pastor is unscriptural. Sometimes an elder is paid as a full-time elder, but in most cases the elders are unpaid servant leaders of the congregation.  The have no authority to change bible doctrine, but they have the authority to decide in cases of "opinion."  This is what is meant in Heb 13:17.

The duties of the elder (Acts 20:28-35) differ from the duties of the preacher (1 Tim 4:13).  They should not become confused in the Christian's mind.  This is a great problem in South America (as it is here) where the preacher wants to be the "decider" or the one in charge.  There is an effort on going to correct this and appoint elders (Titus 1:5) in every city (congregation of the Lord's people).

[Soldier4Christ]

Hello Salesman42,

Welcome to the Christians Unite forums. I look forward to more of your posts.

I somewhat agree with your statement. What is misunderstood in most cases though is the word 'elder'. The word does mean an individual that is older. Unfortunately though it is associated with an individual that is physically older. In the context that scripture uses this word is an with those that are more mature in God's word. This is the same in many other things in scripture where people relate to the physical world instead of that which is spiritual.

[Salesman42]

Reply to
"I somewhat agree with your statement. What is misunderstood in most cases though is the word 'elder'. The word does mean an individual that is older. Unfortunately though it is associated with an individual that is physically older. In the context that scripture uses this word is an with those that are more mature in God's word. This is the same in many other things in scripture where people relate to the physical world instead of that which is spiritual."

I agree that the word "elder" can also refer to an older person in a physical or spiritual sense according to the context.  It is used as an older person in 1 Tim 5:1 and as a leader in 1 Tim 4:14 "Presbytery" or "counsel of elders".  A counsel of elders (a plurality) consists of more than one elder as rulers.  With this taken in context, it becomes clear that the church is overseen or "bishoped" by a group of men (elders) who have the oversight (1 Peter 5:1-3) of the congregation.

"Overseen" and "shepherded" by this group of older, spiritually mature men referred to as "elders" who are in the position of leadership among the congregation.  Hopefully this clears up my meaning when I refer to elders.

[Soldier4Christ]

Yes, scripture does use the word elder in the context of spiritual maturity quite frequently. Even though scripture does not give the specific ages of the Apostles it is figured by statements and circumstances of what they were doing at the time that they were in the ages of 17 to 30 at the start of Jesus' ministry.

The word was indicative of a person aged physically when used by the Jews but used in the spiritual aspect when used by the celestial council or Christian “presbyter” (Heb 5:14). Keep in mind also that the average age of a person at that time in Jerusalem was 35.

[nChrist]

Hello Salesman42,

WELCOME!

I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Salesman42]

Elders were to be "appointed" in every city Titus 1:5.  This would indicate that the term "elder" has an additional importance other than age. It would seem that one would not have to be appointed to be more mature or older in age.  They were appointed to be overseers as they worked and lived among the brethren.

I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts and to come to a better understanding of God's word. 

I do not understand how the concept of a single man being called a "pastor" who is over a church. This is reserved for those with the qualifications Paul gave Timothy and Titus.  Elders of the church are always spoken as elders (plural) as in Acts 20.  It would see unscriptural to call a man a pastor unless they met the qualifications and were a part of the whole eldership. In addition, there is never a "head elder" or a "teaching elder" since teaching is a qualification for all elders and they are all equal in authority.  How did this error of a man "pastoring a church" come about?

[Soldier4Christ]

The word pastor comes from Jer 17:16 and it is not in error. It means 'one that leads'. This came about as one person that conducted the preaching so that there would not be mass confusion with everyone trying to preach all at once. There is nothing unBiblical about it at all.

[nChrist]

Elders were to be "appointed" in every city Titus 1:5.  This would indicate that the term "elder" has an additional importance other than age. It would seem that one would not have to be appointed to be more mature or older in age.  They were appointed to be overseers as they worked and lived among the brethren.

I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts and to come to a better understanding of God's word. 

I do not understand how the concept of a single man being called a "pastor" who is over a church. This is reserved for those with the qualifications Paul gave Timothy and Titus.  Elders of the church are always spoken as elders (plural) as in Acts 20.  It would see unscriptural to call a man a pastor unless they met the qualifications and were a part of the whole eldership. In addition, there is never a "head elder" or a "teaching elder" since teaching is a qualification for all elders and they are all equal in authority.  How did this error of a man "pastoring a church" come about?

First, I agree with Pastor Roger - this is not an error.

Let's cut to the chase. Where are you trying to take this? Who or what do you suggest in the place of a Pastor?

[Salesman42]

Actually I am not trying to take this anywhere. I simply believe that New Testament words should be used correctly. 

Going to the old testament scriptures for authority would have been good for the Jewish nation while under the Old Law, but we are not governed by the old testament today and the language and its usage is not the same.

The root word for "pastor" and "shepherd" is poimēn.  One who cares for, oversees, feeds, etc.   This is the function of the elders under whom the preacher/ministr  labors.   There is no new testament example of a single elder/pastor/shepherd/bishop over a congregation.  It is alway referred to as a plurality  (ie presbytery - body of elders). 

This idea of a single pastor over a congregtion is what I was referring to as an unscriptural position.  Hope this clears up ay confusion.

[nChrist]

Actually I am not trying to take this anywhere. I simply believe that New Testament words should be used correctly. 

Going to the old testament scriptures for authority would have been good for the Jewish nation while under the Old Law, but we are not governed by the old testament today and the language and its usage is not the same.

The root word for "pastor" and "shepherd" is poimēn.  One who cares for, oversees, feeds, etc.   This is the function of the elders under whom the preacher/ministr  labors.   There is no new testament example of a single elder/pastor/shepherd/bishop over a congregation.  It is alway referred to as a plurality  (ie presbytery - body of elders). 

This idea of a single pastor over a congregtion is what I was referring to as an unscriptural position.  Hope this clears up ay confusion.

I don't remember any of us saying that we're confused. Nobody here is confused as far as I know. I know that I'm not confused.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV)  11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;   12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

If you don't like the organization of the local assembly you're attending, go to a different local assembly or start your own. Regardless, some form of structure and authority will be needed for peace, order, and Biblical teaching. Otherwise, you would have babes teaching babes and would have great need of milk.

Love In Christ,
Tom