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Sower
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« on: December 23, 2003, 10:24:12 PM »

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same
 shall be saved
. Matthew 24:13; Mk. 13:13 (KJV).

This is one of the most misunderstood and misapplied Scriptures in the NT. Does this statement have anything to do with the eternal security of the believer, or was it given as a promise to those who would face severe persecution just before the Great Tribulation?

Context
The apostles asked the Lord to tell them when Jerusalem would be destroyed, what would be the sign of His second coming, and what would be the end of the "world" [age]?

The Lord Jesus revealed that first there would be wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes which would signify "the beginning of sorrows" (Mt. 24:Cool. These correspond to the first four seals of the book of The Revelation.

Then there would be various persecutions, afflictions and executions of believers to the point that "ye shall be hated of all nations for my sake" (24:9-12).  Deception would abound, sin would abound, and love for Christ would diminish.  In other words, before the end of the age [the world as we know it], there would be a tremendous falling away as well as great persecution of faithful believers. It is in this context that Christ gave His promise to those who would endure.  

Meaning of endure
This is the Greek word hupomeinas from hupomeno, which means (1) to abide under (2) to bear up courageously under suffering, (3) to tarry (4) to wait patiently.  In other words, patient waiting for the Lord Jesus with courage, while enduring afflictions, persecutions, and disasters, will be rewarded.

Meaning of saved
This is the Greek word sothesetai from soteria, which can mean "deliverance", "preservation", "salvation",
"safety"  or "health".

In the context that we have, it means "delivered".  So the Lord is telling us that those who endure afflictions shall be delivered.  But from what?  

Since the Great Tribulation follows the "beginning of sorrows", the logical conclusion is "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be delivered from the Great Tribulation", which is designed for unrepentant sinners, not for God's children.

This corresponds to 1 Thess. 1:10: "AND TO WAIT FOR HIS SON FROM HEAVEN, WHOM HE RAISED FROM THE DEAD, EVEN JESUS, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME."

Believers will not go through the Great Tribulation, which is also "the Day of the Lord" and the "Wrath of the Lamb". Christians will be caught up and translated into heaven at the Rapture before the great and terrible day of the Lord.

As to the eternal security of the believer, it is guaranteed by the fact that God lives within the believer and has given him or her the gift of eternal life.  This is a gift of God's grace as a result of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His work of redemption. It has nothing to do with our "perseverance" or "endurance" or any such thing.  It is a gift of God's love grounded in the finished work of Calvary (John 3:16). BELIEVE IT!
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nChrist
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2003, 02:12:37 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Sower,

Amen, thanks Brother.

Yes, I believe it.

Love In Christ,
Tom

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The Crusader
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2003, 05:09:27 AM »

Enjoyed your message Sower.

The Crusader

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Sower
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2003, 11:18:16 AM »

Enjoyed your message Sower.

The Crusader


Thank you brothers Tom and Crusader. May we who believe these truths in simple faith hold fast to the "sound words" of Scripture and always remember that it is THE LORD who is both our strength and our salvation, therefore we have nothing to fear.

At this Christmas season, may the Lord richly bless each one on this forum who is His child, and do so throughout the year ahead of us. Have a blessed Christmas!
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2003, 04:14:31 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Quote
At this Christmas season, may the Lord richly bless each one on this forum who is His child, and do so throughout the year ahead of us. Have a blessed Christmas!

We've already been given The Perfect Gift! I plan to enjoy and give thanks every day for my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. HIS grace is much more than sufficient for all of us.

Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2003, 11:25:46 PM »


"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."  

(Revelation 14:12)
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2003, 10:52:18 PM »

Sower,

As I was reading Mk 5, this PM, I encountered the same word you called attention to at Mat 24:13;  the word "saved", this word is translated as a different word, with the same meaning in mind.

Consider the verses at the following passage;

 Mk 5
22  And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,
23  And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be "healed"; and she shall live.
24  And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.

It is the Greek word sozo, sode-zo #4982.

In both passages it is used to convey, that of being "delivered" from death, a physical death (it even says it at verse 22 below), more precisely.  

Mark 5:23, makes the point plainly.


This answer is specifically in answer to the question; "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"  the sign of his coming is a fulfillment  of the prophecy of  Enoch;

One of Judgement;  "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."   Jude 1:14-15

Those who are preserved to see this end (the shortening of those days) were preserved from death, thereby saved, this is clearly Gods doing, not mans, the passage does not end at verse 13, but continues to include verse 27, and,

it says plainly at verse 21;

" shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."  

Verse 13, says "the end", not before or mid way thru the great tribulation.


Consider Mat 24
4. Take heed that no man deceive you.  
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  
8   All these are the beginning of sorrows.  
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.  
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.  
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Clearly the verse at Mat 24:13, is a sign of salvation from death for the elects sake, who will have endured to the end..

It is a blessing to see, this because of what you have posted.

[/b]Behold, I have told you before.[/b] (vs 25)

Thanks again..

And God bless,
Petro
« Last Edit: December 28, 2003, 10:57:33 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2003, 01:20:35 AM »

Hi there!

I am new here, and the first thing I have learned.... it is frustrating to type a response and then learn you are timed out and the response is lost.  Do you always have to "save" every response just in case you are booted off?


anyway, back to the original question.


Matthew 24.... the Olivet Discourse.  Who is it addressed to?   Well, it isn't the church, for the church is gone; but it is directed to the Jewish nation which will have to endure the wrath of God to the end to be saved to the millennial kingdom.  

~serapha~
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2003, 05:11:11 PM »

Is this about "the eternal security of the saved person"? I've read on a different website, called "christiananswers.net" that when a person becomes saved, they are permanently saved and are never in danger of going to hell again.

But that doesn't seem to make sense to me. If a saved person is truly unable to turn around and end up in hell, then why would Satan and his demons waste their time on christians?

If this is truly the way it is, then there is no way that Satan could lure a Christian back into hell. If he can't influence a born-again believer to end up in hell, then he would simply spend all of his time trying to keep nonbelievers from becoming christians.

But Satan and his demons surely DO attack christians and try to get them to turn from God. So I believe that a christian has the potential to turn from God and end up in hell if they so choose to.

This really bothers me, because a christian who believes that they are eternally secure may go out and sin to their heart's desire and think that it will all be okay in the end. This confuses me.  
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2003, 05:55:30 PM »

Is this about "the eternal security of the saved person"? I've read on a different website, called "christiananswers.net" that when a person becomes saved, they are permanently saved and are never in danger of going to hell again.

But that doesn't seem to make sense to me. If a saved person is truly unable to turn around and end up in hell, then why would Satan and his demons waste their time on christians?

If this is truly the way it is, then there is no way that Satan could lure a Christian back into hell. If he can't influence a born-again believer to end up in hell, then he would simply spend all of his time trying to keep nonbelievers from becoming christians.

But Satan and his demons surely DO attack christians and try to get them to turn from God. So I believe that a christian has the potential to turn from God and end up in hell if they so choose to.

This really bothers me, because a christian who believes that they are eternally secure may go out and sin to their heart's desire and think that it will all be okay in the end. This confuses me.  

Hi there!

But that passage really isn't about eternal security, that passage is directed to the Jewish nation.  

But, to answer your question concerning why satan would continue to try and defeat Christians when he knows they are "secure" in Christ.  Satan continues his work against the spread of the gospel and any work for the kingdom of God.  A discussion on the Doctrine of Eternal Security may be a thread where you could learn much from bibilcal teachings. I suggest you open a new thread with that discussion theme.


~serapha~
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2003, 09:15:00 PM »

Hi there!

I am new here, and the first thing I have learned.... it is frustrating to type a response and then learn you are timed out and the response is lost.  Do you always have to "save" every response just in case you are booted off?


anyway, back to the original question.


Matthew 24.... the Olivet Discourse.  Who is it addressed to?   Well, it isn't the church, for the church is gone; but it is directed to the Jewish nation which will have to endure the wrath of God to the end to be saved to the millennial kingdom.  

~serapha~

serapha,

Who is it addressed to?  

This is a fair question, I guess you would have to define, who the elect of Mat 24:22 are.

And then, explain how do they differ from, the elect at;

Eph 1
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Are not those who were chosen from before the foundations of the world, not elected??

Her is a verse I have wondered about;

1 Pet 5
6  Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7  Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9  Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11  To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
12  By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
13  The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Is the church elect, or not, if not who are the elect of Mat 24:22 and how are they different from those predestinated, chosen, elect, called, sanctified, washed, and sealed by the Spirit of God?

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2004, 02:17:05 PM »

Actually we do not have to define the word ourselves, since the scriptures define it for us.

Just continue reading down to verse 31 of Chap. 24 of Mat, and right away it answers this for us.

Although Jesus, may be speaking about whatwill befall the Nation and the Jews, the chapter is written for His  elects own admonishment and exhortation, that we might know what to expect at the times of His return.

This why He begings the closing of the chapter with the words;

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Therefore be ye also ready:
 (vs's 42, 44)


I think the reason why Christians fail to see, this chapter as speaking of Christ's church the elect, is becasuse they already come with preconceived notions (not because they have worked it out thruogh the studying of scripture)  about where the elect church ought to be.

If you know of any other verses which would shed light on this subject feel free to post them??  

I am open to sound scriptural teaching concerning this subject.


Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2004, 10:32:49 PM »

Petro,


I follow premillennial theology and apparently you do not, and that is okay with me.  No souls will be lost over the disagreements concerning premillennialism or other end time theologies.

The Word is specific in saying that the church will be spared the wrath of God.  Additionally, Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus was talking to the Jewish people then, and Jesus states, "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"... the second advent.    Now, since I believe the Bible supports premillennialism, therefore the church is gone from the earth, and Matthew 24 and 25 related to the Jewish nation.


~serapha~
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Petro
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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2004, 10:59:20 PM »

Petro,


I follow premillennial theology and apparently you do not, and that is okay with me.  No souls will be lost over the disagreements concerning premillennialism or other end time theologies.

I think its wonderful that we can follow one thing or another, that still doesn't answer my question how, you get just the Jewish people out of the elect, any verses you can share that can show some biblical teaching on this thought.

Quote

The Word is specific in saying that the church will be spared the wrath of God.  Additionally, Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus was talking to the Jewish people then, and Jesus states, "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"... the second advent.


This still does not answer the question, I can read also, and I follow what you are saying, but where does it say this will befall only the Jews,?  


Obviously your read is that those who are given white robes at Rev 6 and 7, who come through the great tribulation, are only Jews.




Quote
Now, since I believe the Bible supports premillennialism, therefore the church is gone from the earth, and Matthew 24 and 25 related to the Jewish nation.


~serapha~

I don't deny He is speaking to the Jews, I say he is NOT specifically speaking of these things befalling the Jews only. at Mat 24:21.

Especially since the word elect is used..    

How do arrive at this suposition??

Blessings,
Petro
« Last Edit: January 01, 2004, 11:07:22 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2004, 05:44:59 PM »

Hello Petro,

You are very hard to follow, I had to backtrack several responses to see what your question was.


You asked,

Quote
how, you get just the Jewish people out of the elect, any verses you can share that can show some biblical teaching on this thought.

Also

Quote
but where does it say this will befall only the Jews,?  

Let me clarify my comments on Matthew 24 and 25.  Jesus was talking TO the Jews about the Jews in the end time.  No where did I make the statement that THE CONTENTS OF MATTHEW 24 and 25 was ONLY for the Jews.  The tribulations are for anyone who is left on this earth, and Matthew 24 and 25 address the tribulation period.  

You made the assumption that leads to your question...... just as you made this assumption...

Quote
Obviously your read is that those who are given white robes at Rev 6 and 7, who come through the great tribulation, are only Jews.

First of all, when I want to know what I think, I will ask my heart or look in the Bible, but I won't ask Petro.

Second, don't ever put words in my mouth again.  

Third, this discussion is over as far as I am concerned.  I am not looking for a "debate" of what I believe.  I am not here to defend myself from your assumptions.

Thank you for the welcome to the forum.  I think I have learned the ropes.




~serapha~
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