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Author Topic: New Discovery--Archaeology  (Read 10305 times)
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2004, 04:10:43 PM »

Well, he is a collector.  And it would take some acumen to take that kind of risk--such a claim as the inscription implies would be obviously senstional.  He would know as a knowledgable collector that a discovered forgery would ruin him.  To forge such a find is enormously risky.

Well, yes and no. Golan can, you see, claim that scholars led him astray as to the nature of the box. Even in the case of a known forgery, you can make more money - like those forged paints of old masters which now make a good deal of money in their own right. I would say it is worth the risk for a collector with sufficient guts to do it - they can make a lot of quick money and just claim that they were misled and would make sure they would not be so misled later.

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A very early fake then would only authenticate, validate or confirm other finds of similar antiquity--including mss--not to mention the validity of the narrative itself?  It seems like the earlier the date, the more valid it would become.  I think the IAA regards it as a recent forgery...

I'm just going by what my lecturers said: I don't have technical knowledge in this field.

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I don't think BAR, either, is necessarily a "Christian" sympathizer.

Hmmm. Well, if you think about it, BAR cannot afford to alienate Christians. Out of its readership, how many will be professing Christians? I would guess that the majority of their readers will be Christian rather than Jewish or Muslim - partly because Christianity, as an evangelising religion, tends to place a lot of status on archaeological findings. BAR would lose a great deal of money if it became anti-christian - not to mention that a lot of the researchers in this field are Christians themselves.

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This issue also contains an article implying that Jesus derived his poverty sympathies from the Essenes; obviously dismissing then His divine nature or character.   Why would he need to be taking marching orders from the Essenes, if He were God?

Old news. That theory has been doing the rounds since 1945 and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. People have said Jesus or John the Baptist were Essenes since then, as there are other somewhat similar ideas. But in fact, Jesus' sympathies could as easily be said to be generally Jewish - concern for poverty and oppression is hardly unknown in the OT, and I'd imagine the Essenes grew up at the same time for the pure and simple reason that Israel was oppressed - which tends to make issues of oppression and poverty become more important to any populace. Its not a particularly anti-christian theory by any means, though the Essenes in general are nearer to John the Baptist than to Jesus, I'd say, as they were more ascetic than Jesus was.
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2004, 12:49:24 AM »

Well, yes and no. Golan can, you see, claim that scholars led him astray as to the nature of the box. Even in the case of a known forgery, you can make more money - like those forged paints of old masters which now make a good deal of money in their own right. I would say it is worth the risk for a collector with sufficient guts to do it - they can make a lot of quick money and just claim that they were misled and would make sure they would not be so misled later.

In some circumstances that may be.  In Golan's case I'm not sure even a carefully calculated forgery could be a convincing enough risk.  The context of Golan just doesn't fit the profile of a con.  If Golan is Jewish, the context is Jewish, BAR's editor is Jewish--there's just no incentive for a traditional Jew to forge a Christian antiquity--it only risks further embarrassment to the Jewish historian or the traditional Jew.  If you're going to take that kind of risk, why not something of your own heritage--of the OT??  Why something that would be definitively Christian?

And this is another reason it tended to confirm it's authenticity--the hue and cry going up over how it must be a forgery--echoing once again the same reaction of Caiphas and the Pharisees themselves:  They don't want
our Creator around.  So it must be a forgery.   Roll Eyes

Hmmm. Well, if you think about it, BAR cannot afford to alienate Christians. Out of its readership, how many will be professing Christians? I would guess that the majority of their readers will be Christian rather than Jewish or Muslim - partly because Christianity, as an evangelising religion, tends to place a lot of status on archaeological findings. BAR would lose a great deal of money if it became anti-christian - not to mention that a lot of the researchers in this field are Christians themselves.


Well that's interesting b/c their annual statement was published this issue:  160,000 circulation.  Comparatively, for a news magazine, that's pretty limited.  And I'm not sure they care about alienating Christians, one way or the other.  Their letters column always contains unhappy cancelations from Christians at the magazine's apostasy.  True, it is not overtly anti-Christian.  I see them as "tolerant" of Christians.  And they do include contributing articles by apparent Christians--scholars at various Christian seminaries.

But in fact, Jesus' sympathies could as easily be said to be generally Jewish - concern for poverty and oppression is hardly unknown in the OT,

Yes, they were central to Hebrew reality; but I don't think in the OT poverty and oppression are held up as a virtue.  Jesus is pretty original with that--along with the Essenes--and John the Baptist.  Yes, OT figures were poor, oppressed.  But it wasn't preached.  Jesus preaches it.  So does James.  I think in OT it was prosperity that was a virtue, even if in times it never arrived.
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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2004, 07:49:14 PM »




Israel Cave Linked to John the Baptist

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040816/D84GIE8O0.html
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2004, 10:38:05 AM »

Hello Symphony,

Thanks for the fascinating link. I just came from there and put it in my favorites.

It's great to hear from you. Many here pray for you every day, including me. I know that you wanted to do some very difficult tasks in your community, so how goes the battles?

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2004, 09:50:19 PM »


Hiya, bep.  I'd seen you lurking around here, thot I'd get arrested sooner or later.   Grin

Thank you for your prayers for me.  I've cooled my heels for now, haven't done much else.   Wink
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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2004, 05:14:00 PM »

Noah's Ark discovered?
Competing claims over exact location
of Bible boat leave flood of questions
Posted: August 21, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Joe Kovacs
2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Has Noah's Ark, the legendary vessel of the Bible, been found?

Does it remain hidden?

Was there in fact a giant ship that guided humanity and animals through a 40-day flood, or is it all just ancient myth?

These questions have sparked countless debates for years, and several groups now are trying to settle the issue once and for all.

But while the parties have the same goal of confirming the existence and location of the ark, they seem to be worlds apart in what they believe.


Is this Noah's Ark or just snow-covered rock on Mt. Ararat? (courtesy: DigitalGlobe)

One group is headed by Honolulu businessman Daniel McGivern, who received worldwide publicity in early spring when he announced he was planning a July expedition up Turkey's Mt. Ararat to investigate what was spotted in high-resolution satellite images taken last year at the height of a record-warm summer.

"These new photos unequivocally show a man-made object," McGivern, president of Shamrock The Trinity Corporation, told reporters in April at the National Press Club in Washington. "I am convinced that the excavation of the object and the results of tests run on any collected samples will prove that it is Noah's Ark."

But that was then, and this is now.

McGivern's planned expedition up Ararat has still not taken place for one simple reason lack of permission.

"The government of Turkey did not issue a research visa, which is sad, but it's their country," McGivern told WorldNetDaily. "We haven't totally given up, but it's pretty obvious they're not going to give us one."

According to Space.com, the U.S. Air Force took the first photographs of the Mt. Ararat site in 1949. The images allegedly revealed what seemed to be a structure covered by ice, but were held for years in a confidential file labeled "Ararat Anomaly."

The government released several of the images in 1997, but experts say they are inconclusive.

McGivern's efforts follow an attempt in 2002 by Porcher Taylor, a senior associate at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C.

Taylor used satellite imagery of the area, but photos taken in 2003 by DigitalGlobe's Quick Bird satellite provide a unique view because last summer was Europe's hottest since 1500.

Though McGivern is disappointed he hasn't been given the green light, he hasn't given up all hope.

"I'm in the seventh inning. It isn't over 'til the snows come," he said.

He admits, though, he's not shooting for next summer should permission elude him this year.

"I'm not one of these men that has 'ark fever.' I'll never do it again."

Arking up the wrong tree?

Meanwhile, there are others who believe Noah's Ark has already been found, and tourists can actually visit it on a mountain next to Ararat.


Some believe this is Noah's Ark, already found on a mountain next to Mt. Ararat  (courtesy: wyattmuseum.com)

Ross Patterson, a computer programmer from Whangarei, New Zealand, is among those who think that way, and he's now preparing his own expedition there by October.

The 40-year-old Christian has twice been to the site located near Dogubayazit, Turkey.

"I believe this is Noah's Ark," Patterson tells WorldNetDaily.

Patterson looks to add weight to research by the likes of the late Ron Wyatt, whose Tennessee-based foundation, Wyatt Archaeological Research, purports the ark is indeed at Dogubayazit, some 12-15 miles from Ararat, noting the book of Genesis states the ark rested "upon the mountains of Ararat," not mountain.


Is this a hair from a large cat aboard Noah's Ark?
(photo: Richard Rives, wyattmuseum.com)

Wyatt's website is filled with on-location photographs and charts promoting its case with physical evidence including radar scans of bulkheads on the alleged vessel, deck timber and iron rivets, large "drogue" stones which are thought to have acted as types of anchors, and even some animal hair inside, possibly from a large cat like a lion or tiger.

Though he is not connected to Wyatt's official foundation, Patterson looks to mount a small camera onto a pole, and insert into a cavity inside the formation.

"Hopefully we can capture on video some visual evidence of a man-made structure bulkheads, deck planking, ribs to show it's more than just a pile of dirt," he said. "If we find more evidence, a lot more people may wake up and say it's serious."

Patterson is hoping to work with Dr. Salih Bayraktutan, a geology expert at Turkey's Ataturk University who has conducted previous research at the site.

He's also invited biblical researcher Dr. Lennart Moller of the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm on his journey to Turkey. Moller is the author of "The Exodus Case," and is among those who say there are chariot wheels and other human debris on an underwater land bridge in the Gulf of Aqaba portion of the Red Sea. The book of Exodus says the Red Sea is where God parted the water and drowned the army of ancient Egypt in pursuit of the Israelites.

A flood of doubt

Despite Patterson's staunch belief about the ark being at Dogubayazit, there's been no shortage of critics from both scientific and Christian circles who think the site is erroneous.

Lorence Collins, a retired geology professor from California State University, Northridge, joined the late David Fasold, a one-time proponent of the Wyatt site, in writing a scientific summary claiming the location is "bogus."

"Evidence from microscopic studies and photo analyses demonstrates that the supposed Ark near Dogubayazit is a completely natural rock formation," said the 1996 paper published in the Journal of Geoscience Education. "It cannot have been Noah's Ark nor even a man-made model. It is understandable why early investigators falsely identified it."

"They sold a bill of goods at the time," adds McGivern in Hawaii, "but it has developed a cottage industry."

The Answers in Genesis website provides an in-depth report attempting to debunk any validity the Dogubayazit site has, and concludes by stating:

"[A]s Christians we need to always exercise due care when claims are made, no matter who makes them, and any claims must always be subjected to the most rigorous scientific scrutiny. If that had happened here, and particularly if the scientific surveys conducted by highly qualified professionals using sophisticated instruments had been more widely publicized and their results taken note of, then these claims would never have received the widespread credence that they have."

Officials with Wyatt Archaeological Research remain unfazed in the face of such criticism.

"The site ... is actually something that you can look at. Not some made up story that no one is quite able to reach but something that is really there," said president Richard Rives. "It is a 'boat-shaped object' composed of material containing organic carbon, which is what is found in petrified wood. ...

"While there is more research that needs to be done at the site, there is a substantial amount of evidence that would indicate that the Wyatt site is not a natural object. ...

"Today, everyone wants to tell us how to think. We, at Wyatt Archaeological Research, do not do that. We just present the evidence that we have and let each individual make his own decision."

Patterson in New Zealand believes many would be less critical if only the location were different.

"If that had been found on Mt. Ararat, [the critics would be] jumping up and down for joy."

Plus, he says, there have been hoaxes involving Mt. Ararat itself.

"There's evidence that an expedition would take wood up Mt. Ararat, and then 'find' it the next year.

"We've got to be very careful. That's why we're telling people in advance so we can't just go out in the backyard and 'dig something up.'"

In both the Old and New Testaments, the Bible speaks of Noah and the ark, and Jesus Christ and the apostles Paul and Peter all make reference to Noah's flood as an actual historical event.


'Noah's Ark' by Pennsylvania artist Edward Hicks, 1846

According to the book of Genesis, Noah was a righteous man who was instructed by God to construct a large vessel to hold his family and many species of animals, as a massive deluge was coming to purify the world which had become corrupt.

Genesis 6:5 states: "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Noah was told by God to take aboard seven pairs of each of the "clean" animals that is to say, those permissible to eat and two each of the "unclean" variety. (Gen. 7:2)

Though the Bible says it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, it also mentions "the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days."

The ark then "rested" upon the mountains of Ararat, but it was still months before Noah and his family his wife, his three sons and the sons' wives were able to leave the ark and begin replenishing the world.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40060
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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2004, 02:19:44 AM »

If this is true what a great discovery it would be.

Site of Jesus' Miracle Said to Be Found
Wed Dec 22,12:21 PM ET
By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer

CANA, Israel - Among the roots of ancient olive trees, archaeologists have found pieces of large stone jars of the type the Gospel says Jesus used when he turned water into wine at a Jewish wedding in the Galilee village of Cana.

They believe these could have been the same kind of vessels the Bible says Jesus used in his first miracle, and that the site where they were found could be the location of biblical Cana. But Bible scholars caution it'll be hard to obtain conclusive proof especially since experts disagree on exactly where Cana was located.

Christian theologians attach great significance to the water-to-wine miracle at Cana. The act was not only Jesus' first miracle, but it also came at a crucial point in the early days of his public ministry when his reputation was growing, he had just selected his disciples and was under pressure to demonstrate his divinity.

The shards were found during a salvage dig in modern-day Cana, between Nazareth and Capernaum. Israeli archaeologist Yardena Alexander believes the Arab town was built near the ancient village. The jar pieces date to the Roman period, when Jesus traveled in the Galilee.

"All indications from the archaeological excavations suggest that the site of the wedding was (modern-day) Cana, the site that we have been investigating," said Alexander, as she cleaned the site of mud from winter rains.

However, American archaeologists excavating a rival site several miles to the north have also found pieces of stone jars from the time of Jesus, and believe they have found biblical Cana.

Another expert, archaeologist Shimon Gibson, cast doubt on the find at modern Cana, since such vessels are not rare and it would be impossible to link a particular set of vessels to the miracle.

"Just the existence of stone vessels is not enough to prove that this is a biblical site," and more excavations are needed, he said.

Based on the shards, Alexander believes the vessels found at her site were 12 to 16 inches in diameter or large enough to be the same type of jars described in the Gospel of John.

Other evidence that might link the site to the biblical account includes the presence of a Jewish ritual bath at the house, which shows it was a Jewish community. Locally produced pottery was used at the simple house, showing it could have been from the poor village described in the Scriptures.

Stephen Pfann, a Bible scholar in Jerusalem, said that while the American dig has generally been accepted by scholars as the true site, the shards found in modern-day Cana raise new questions.

"I think there is ample evidence that both sites are from the first century, and we need more information to correctly identify either site," Pfann said.

Alexander has been digging in modern Cana since 1999.

The current find came in a last-ditch "salvage dig" before a house is built on the site. A Christian Arab family financed part of the excavation, in accordance with Israeli law, before construction can begin.

Alexander believes that with more substantial investment, the site could became a major tourist attraction and pilgrimage destination.

"We're really working very hard to save some of this site because what we do have here is a village of Jesus," she said. "And it was here that he carried out the first miracle."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20041222/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_jesus_miracle&printer=1
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« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2004, 01:03:21 AM »


Hmmmm.....interesting..
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