what's good if any big shot can be followed?

[tonytony]

read matthew 15:14?

we wouldnt chase after a mechanic expert to be a chef would we? somehow this is the mentality of thinking with christian doctrine.

whats  christian doctrine if there are gray area bible topics to do as you please and you all right?

anybody else feel some radical conviction like Martin Luther King?

[aw]

The problems the Lord exposed during His First Advent included those of the religious leaders of His people the Jews. Essentially, they had mad up "fence laws" according to their own thinking and had departed from what the scriptures revealed and actually taught. They had become "traditions" of men and the religious leaders had placed "yokes of bondage" around the necks of God's people.

Sound familiar? It should as today legalism abounds as proud religious people seek salvation "by works."

aw

[Tibby]

I’m taking the opposite view Aw is. I don’t think the problem we the Leaders followed the law, it was that they obeyed the law, but didn’t understand WHY. They where following the letter of the law, which his worthless if we do not grasp the Spirit of the law. They would fast, and show off there fasting, and that clearly shows they did not understand what fasting is about. They would “strain out gnats and shallow camels” as Jesus put it. They where so meticulous in following they letter of the law, so hung up on the words, they didn’t care what they reason for the law was.

Back to the topic at hand, I think this is why there needs to be a strong, structured Church Government, Locally, nationally, and internationally. So we know who to follow. And if the people leading isn’t doing right, instead of splitting the church, we can call the man above him to stop him. I think you all know what I’m hitting at here, but I honestly believe the Church needs a strong system like this for the very reason tony stated. Who do we follow? Good question, a question that can be answered by this structure.

Can you clarify you last statement on Marten Luther King?

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Brothers Aw and Tibby,

I'll offer a third opinion. You are both being reeled in by someone who wishes to sell you a book from the so-called Bible Expert. Thus, the analogy in the original of looking for a chef to be a mechanic expert. The sales pitch will be sprung on you soon. I guess that advertising is hard to come by these days.

In Christ,
Tom

[Tibby]

That is a possibility. But, if we are both wrong, and blinded by the money gabbers in the back room, then the original question of "what is good" still remains...

[nChrist]

That is a possibility. But, if we are both wrong, and blinded by the money gabbers in the back room, then the original question of "what is good" still remains...

Oklahoma Howdy to Tibby,

Look at the profile and you will see the link to the "Bible Expert". The original question and title is somewhat strange.

In Christ,
Tom

[Tibby]

Ahhh, now I get what you are saying. Nice little bit of Gnosticism he has on his profile.

[nChrist]

Ahhh, now I get what you are saying. Nice little bit of Gnosticism he has on his profile.

Oklahoma Howdy to Tibby,

Brother, I'm not sure what the guy is saying, but I did visit the web site.

I'm thinking about writing a book on Olympics - "How To Be A Javelin Catcher".   Would you consider being my agent and paying for the publishing costs?  

In Christ,
Tom

[Sower]

Matthew 15:14 is speaking about "blind leaders of the blind", and spiritual blindness only exists in those who are not saved.  So this Scripture really has nothing to do with what you are talking about, neither does Martin Luther King Jr.

However, if you are suggesting that Christians need to follow some "guru" who has all the answers, note well that  Scripture teaches that every believer has a Divine Teacher -- the Holy Spirit -- and can and will be taught by God Himself.

That does not mean that we do not need pastors, teachers and evangelists in our midst.  They are given to the Church to help believers grow into spiritual maturity. What it does mean is that we do not need to follow any man, but follow the Lord Himself.

[aw]

Thanks for the tips and time saver. HOWEVER, while we are here, Jesus did spend around 1/3 of His earthly ministry rebuking, correcting, and teaching the Jewsih religious leaders.

aw

[Tibby]

BEP-Go for it! I’d buy a copy.

Sower- Amen, well said!!!!!!!!!!

Aw- I wouldn’t say 3/1 He spent more time with his Disciples, teaching them how to live. Jesus said what he had to about the things wrong with the system, but he came here the build the Church (and die for our sins, of course), not tear down the world.  

[ollie]

read matthew 15:14?

we wouldnt chase after a mechanic expert to be a chef would we? somehow this is the mentality of thinking with christian doctrine.

I'm sure mechanics probably get hungry and need to fix themselves some food once in a while.
Christian doctrine should be of Christ.

whats  christian doctrine if there are gray area bible topics to do as you please and you all right?

Are you sure the gray areas are Christ's doctrine. If so how can they be gray? Salvation through Christ seems crystal clear not gray.

anybody else feel some radical conviction like Martin Luther King?

Another human being like the rest of us.

[aw]

BEP-Go for it! I’d buy a copy.

Sower- Amen, well said!!!!!!!!!!

Aw- I wouldn’t say 3/1 He spent more time with his Disciples, teaching them how to live. Jesus said what he had to about the things wrong with the system, but he came here the build the Church (and die for our sins, of course), not tear down the worl.

aw replies: Have you ever read some of the statements that the Lord made to the Pharisees and Saducees? Remember Him going into the temple? He came "1ST" to national Israel offering them the kingdom and there is only ONE mention of the Church in all of the synoptic gospels and that was with regard to how it would be built.

The Lord did NOT start building His church until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. It was then, and only then, that one was BAPTIZED INTO the body of Vhrist.

aw

[Tibby]

What came first, the Christ or the Church?

The Christ.

And had the Christ not come, would the church have been built?

No.

[ollie]

What came first, the Christ or the Church?

The Christ.

And had the Christ not come, would the church have been built?

No.

The church are the called of God out of the world and into God's Son according to God's purpose.
What calls? The gospel of Jesus Christ.
What came first? God's purpose.