Put Wine back on the Lord's Table?

[Gray Ant]

Refrigeration and pasteurization were not invented until recently. Christ took the Lord's Supper at Passover time, 6 months after the grape harvest. Keeping a bunch of grapes for 6 months to squeeze fresh grape juice out of them is unreasonable. Sulphites do not prevent grape juice from turning to wine. They only arrest the fermentation process from turning into vinegar.

Even Jewish historians who know their culture best, will tell you that the "fruit of the vine" is a Jewish term for wine, not grape juice. Fermentation is a God-ordained process of preservation. Wine is preserved because it becomes alcoholic. That is the wine that Jesus instituted for the Lord's Supper. New wine is only grape juice for a few days in the autumn, 6 months before Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper.

Some Baptists and other "immersionists" such as Churches of Christ are bigoted against churches which do not immerse for baptism, claiming rightly that immersion was the original, but incorrectly that baptizo is always used literally in the Bible. It is not. What a contradiction that they don't use this same argument for the Lord's Supper!

[Brother Jerry]

Well as a baptist by name only let me state also that we are not "bigoted" against others for not immersing during the baptism process.  As long as you understand that it is not the act of getting baptised that saves you.  And as far as baptizo always used literally in the Bible...yes it is...anytime the Bible uses the word baptise/baptism/or any other form of the word it is referring to a cleansing process, a process in which something is "washed" away. 

But that is not the core of your questions or poll.  And I will answer that in a bit...I have a study on that however it is not with me so I will post it in a day or two right here for you.

But I will leave you with the simple verses and then when I come back with the other study we can go from there.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak
This verse lets us know a couple of things.  One that things like alcohol can make us stumble or be weak.  Which is undeniable when you look at the number of alcoholics there are in the world, the number of DUI's, people killed by drunk drivers, and every sort of offense made while under the influence.  Being a former liquor hound sailor I know first hand what it is like to have alcohol as a god.  I stumbled and it made me weak.  The second thing this verse lets us know is that we should not partake of things that do make us weak or stumble.  We are to stay clear of things which can lead us to substituting them for God.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit
This verse tells us to not drink wine, yes it says not to be drunk, but look at the next part of the verse where it states wherein is excess.  This part of the sentence is in reference to the first part.  But not all of the first part, only last noun of the sentence, wine.  So in wine there is excess.  Even Paul at this time understood that to start drinking was a temptation to keep drinking.

Again those are two simple verses and we should always start with the simple and move in to the more complex and if we ever run across something that contradicts what we thought we knew, then we have to re-evaluate.  So give me a few days and I will come back with more for you.

[Phoenix]

Jerry stated, "we should not partake of things that do make us weak or stumble. "  However, scripture is clear on this, it is the offended person that is weak.  When they see someone else excercising the liberty of having a drink, they, being weak, are offended. The weak person is not the one doing the drinking. 

The Bible speaks against becoming drunk, but not against having a drink.  I'm always puzzled why smoking, drinking, and buying a loto ticket get placed at the top of the sin list.  Shouldn't lyng, stealing, murder and adultery be at the top? 

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Phoenix,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

As we see by the following verse it is saying that it is good that we do not partake of those things that may cause a brother to stumble. If we have a brother that has an alcoholic problem and we are drinking in his company or he knows that we are drinking we could cause him to stumble.

Rom 14:21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

No it doesn't say that we can't do those things but that it is good if we don't. Should we do those things that cause our testimony to be tarnished, to prevent others from coming to Christ.

I'm always puzzled why smoking, drinking, and buying a loto ticket get placed at the top of the sin list.  Shouldn't lyng, stealing, murder and adultery be at the top?

Plain and simple ... NO! Sin is sin. Lying, stealing, murder is no less than nor more than smoking, drinking and gambling.

1Co 8:7  Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8  But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9  But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10  For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11  And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

[Phoenix]

Thanks for the welcome!

A few points -
1) Smoking is not listed as a sin.  Jesus said it's not what enters our mouth that defiles, but what comes out.
2) I've witnessed that Legalism and adding prohibitions that don't actually exist, hurts our Christian witness.
3) I agree that booz'n it in front of an alcholholic is just plain wrong.
4) Murder is a sin, both OT and new.  Therefore, smoking a cigarette is not like murder. 
5) Smoking, sitting in front of a TV too much, eating too much fat, and not getting enough exercise all qualify not taking care of our bodies.
6) Everything that is not of faith is sin.  So, just about anything and everything can be made sin. But that doesn't mean we should make anything and everything a sin. I don't think it's fruitful, necessary, or good strategy to do that.  I'm going to focus on the camels and not the splinters. Given a choice, I'll confront someone about their gossip before I'll confront them about a cigarette.

Regarding weaker brothers, I say .... get off the milk and mature in Christ.     Wounding someone's conscience is certainly a bad thing (sin).  So, educate them so they are not wounded.  Saying things are sin, when they are not, makes their conscience weak and keeps them as Christian babes. 

[nChrist]

Jerry stated, "we should not partake of things that do make us weak or stumble. "  However, scripture is clear on this, it is the offended person that is weak.  When they see someone else excercising the liberty of having a drink, they, being weak, are offended. The weak person is not the one doing the drinking. 

The Bible speaks against becoming drunk, but not against having a drink.  I'm always puzzled why smoking, drinking, and buying a loto ticket get placed at the top of the sin list.  Shouldn't lyng, stealing, murder and adultery be at the top? 

Hello Phoenix,

WELCOME!

I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite.

I think that the answers to your questions are multi-faceted and obvious. First, there is the misery and destruction that these things cause to consider. The misery spoken of involves health, death, violence, and impacts many more people than the person doing them. The family is the first to suffer. If the person is a Christian, there is a testimony for CHRIST involved, and it isn't good. Testimony alone should be enough for a Christian. Many millions of people are destroyed by these things every year, so it really boils down to them being tools of the devil to devour and destroy. There isn't any way to put a happy face on these things, so I won't debate or argue them.

Love In Christ,
Tom


Galatians 5:19-21 NASB  Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Phoenix]

Thanks Tom, so far I'm enjoying the site. You're right, alcohol has done a lot of damage.  So have guns, but I own a few.

The Bible is full of both negative and positive statements about wine and strong drink.
The festival tithe of Deut 14:26 can actually be used to buy strong drink.
Jesus created about 120 - 180 gallons of wine.
Timothy was encouraged to have a glass.
The fact that wine skins would burst is proof of fermentation.

Catholics would disagree that its a bad witness and so would millions of other Christians living outside the USA. In other countries, Christians drink wine and beer and no brother is ever offended.

Here are few more positive scriptures:
Psa 4:7
Psa 104:14-15
Prov 3:10
1Tim 5:23


A couple of parting comments here:
I don't advocate drinking and certainly not drunkenness.  I'm simply pointing out that the Bible doesn't totally prohibit having a drink.

Okay...now I'm going to look for some other topic to post.  Enjoyed the feedback everyone gave!

[ibTina]

Funny how things 'just' happen upon us. In my dailey reading I came to this verse and this topic shows up here... how about this verse in the Bible....

Lev 10:9
 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

[Phoenix]

It's always good to read the context of scripture.  In this case, context falls smack dab right in the middle of the scripture being quoted....and it says, "when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation".  Again, this is not a total prohibition. It's when you go to the tabernacle.

When we build doctrine, it's very important to read all of scripture, in its context.  I could give plenty of examples of plucking scripture out of context to come up with doctrine that is not sound. For example, 1Cor 15:29 would seem to suggest that Baptizing for the dead is something we should do.  Only the Mormans believe that, and they use this scripture as support.   Of course this is not what the Bible teaches, when you read the WHOLE of scripture.

When advise goes beyond what the Bible says, it turns into legalism.

[nChrist]

It's always good to read the context of scripture.  In this case, context falls smack dab right in the middle of the scripture being quoted....and it says, "when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation".  Again, this is not a total prohibition. It's when you go to the tabernacle.

When we build doctrine, it's very important to read all of scripture, in its context.  I could give plenty of examples of plucking scripture out of context to come up with doctrine that is not sound. For example, 1Cor 15:29 would seem to suggest that Baptizing for the dead is something we should do.  Only the Mormans believe that, and they use this scripture as support.   Of course this is not what the Bible teaches, when you read the WHOLE of scripture.

When advise goes beyond what the Bible says, it turns into legalism.

Hello Phoenix,

A Christian's rightful desire to live for the LORD and have a pleasing testimony for CHRIST has nothing to do with legalism. One needs to read all of Paul and realize that Christian Liberty is not a license to continue the deeds of the flesh and sin. Christian Liberty is simply used as an EXCUSE by some who enjoy the deeds of the flesh and want to continue in them. Christian Liberty is taken out of context to accomplish this goal, and the rest of Paul's teaching is ignored in the effort.

As obvious examples, every Christian should have a desire to set a proper example, have a pleasing testimony for CHRIST, and live for the LORD. This does not represent a return to the Law, legalism, or anything other than common sense for a Christian who wishes to glorify GOD in their daily lives. For these MOST OBVIOUS reasons, this is only a matter of debate for people who wish to continue the deeds of the flesh and isolate Christian Liberty from other teachings that the Apostle Paul was just as adamant about.

These things are certainly NOT a matter of debate here, and they WON'T be. We don't advocate, endorse, encourage, or defend drinking, gambling, smoking, pornography, or any number of other deeds of the flesh here.

If you are an adult, you can practice whatever your conscience allows, BUT - it WON"T be taught here as appropriate. This thread has drifted far off-topic from the original question, and it's CLOSED for that reason.

This is a Christian Family Forum - including children. I hope this is a sufficient HINT. Threads headed in the same direction will be deleted, and further action will be taken.

Moderator