FAITH + WORKS For Salvation = DAMNSTION!

[michael_legna]

Brother love knows what Jesus says and that the catholic church says the opposite. "A man cannot serve two masters." We have only ONE HOLY FATHER and He is in heaven. Which master do you serve, Lion? God or the pope? You cannot serve both.

Catholics do not serve the Pope he serves us.

[Matt]

Hey, not to say that any of your churches did or anything, but what on earth is wrong with changing doctrine? Shouldn't things be revised in order to obtain maximum efficency at all times? Why or why not?

-Thanks, Matt

[michael_legna]

Hey, not to say that any of your churches did or anything, but what on earth is wrong with changing doctrine? Shouldn't things be revised in order to obtain maximum efficency at all times? Why or why not?

-Thanks, Matt

Issues of doctrine are different from issues of discipline.  You can change discipline issues, but doctrine relates to salvation.  If you change those it means you had them wrong before and that means all those you told how to be saved you misled and Christ's Church would not do that.  So changing doctrine would be an admission that you are not the true Church.

[Brother Love]

Hey, not to say that any of your churches did or anything, but what on earth is wrong with changing doctrine? Shouldn't things be revised in order to obtain maximum efficency at all times? Why or why not?

-Thanks, Matt

Issues of doctrine are different from issues of discipline.  You can change discipline issues, but doctrine relates to salvation.  If you change those it means you had them wrong before and that means all those you told how to be saved you misled and Christ's Church would not do that.  So changing doctrine would be an admission that you are not the true Church.

Whach about eating only "FISH" on Friday, "NO MEAT" Is that a change of Doctrine?  

[michael_legna]

Hey, not to say that any of your churches did or anything, but what on earth is wrong with changing doctrine? Shouldn't things be revised in order to obtain maximum efficency at all times? Why or why not?

-Thanks, Matt

Issues of doctrine are different from issues of discipline.  You can change discipline issues, but doctrine relates to salvation.  If you change those it means you had them wrong before and that means all those you told how to be saved you misled and Christ's Church would not do that.  So changing doctrine would be an admission that you are not the true Church.

Whach about eating only "FISH" on Friday, "NO MEAT" Is that a change of Doctrine?  

Nope only a change of discipline as you well know.

[Heidi]

The disciplines HAVE to come from the doctrine, Michael. Splitting hairs  cannot change that.

[michael_legna]

The disciplines HAVE to come from the doctrine, Michael. Splitting hairs  cannot change that.

No they don't - that doesn't make any sense at all unless you are misunderstanding the term doctrine - which with your knowledge of Catholicism I wouldn't be surprised.

Doctrines relate to salvation.  Disciplines relate to walk.  Our walk can change without affecting our salvation can it not?  Or do you believe in salvation by works?

[Heidi]

But you have said that your walk CAN change our salvation, have you not?

Do you not see that our walk comes from the HEART not "disciplines?" Do you not see that our walk comes from the LOVE for God rather than rules and regulations? This is Jesus's WHOLE POINT to the Pharisees! Jesus said, "First clean the cup from the INSIDE and the outside will BECOME clean as well." Do you understand what he means? Once his love and forgiveness enters our hearts, HE HAS CLEANED THEM by washing away our sins, Michael. Because HE HAS CLEANED them, our outside will BECOME clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." If we have the love for God inside of our hearts, we CANNOT HELP BUT SHOW IT! It is not FORCED, but genuine! Then there is ABSOLUTELY no NEED for disciplines! Our responses are coming from our hearts! God REPLACES our desires of the flesh with the DESIRES of the spirit! That's why there are so many people in the church who "practice" disciplines but their hearts are far from Him. Paul said that any works without LOVE are meaningless. They first have to receive the unconditional love from God before they can give that love to back to God or anyone else!

[michael_legna]

But you have said that your walk CAN change our salvation, have you not?

Yes, our walk can affect our salvation but only in the sense of it matching proper behavior in line with loving obedience.  It is not the act itself or the works fulfilling the particular act but the loving obedience that is either present or not in our complying with the discipline that is important.  But you do not believe this so you cannot argue that as proof that discipline and doctrine are related especially when you do not understand the subtly of this issue.  

I offer the following as a silly example to make the work appear separate form the issue of obedience and perhaps make it clearer to you.

If the Church tells me to stand on the right foot and I do it as a matter of discipline and loving obedience it can affect my salvation in the sense that I am obeying to those who watch over my soul as we are taught in scripture (Heb 13:17).  If they change their mind and tell me now stand on the left foot I can affect my salvation by lovingly obeying or not.  It was not the issue of discipline (which foot to stand on) but the loving obedience behind it that is important.  of course you are free to disobey and not lose your salvation as long as you are not doing it just to thwart the Church or to pruposely not dothe will of God.  Even then you can always repent if you later change oyur mind and are truly sorry.

The more important issues relating to salvation are not related at all to discipline but to doctrine as explained in scripture.  Issues where specific works are directly linked to salvation (you know the verses I am talking about - I have quoted them to you repeatedly and you always ignore them).

Do you not see that our walk comes from the HEART not "disciplines?" Do you not see that our walk comes from the LOVE for God rather than rules and regulations?

The love behind the obedience comes from the heart but obedience has to be to something - so there has to be authorities, rules and regulations.

This is Jesus's WHOLE POINT to the Pharisees!

No Jesus whole point to the Pharisees was that they were focused on the details and letter of the law and neglecting the spirit of the law which is love.

Jesus said, "First clean the cup from the INSIDE and the outside will BECOME clean as well."

No once again by paraphrasing God'sword you have gotten it wrong.  Here it is properly quoted in context.

Mat 23:24  Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The Pharisees did the discipline but ignored the easy act of loving (they though God desired sacrifice not mercy - which is of course backwards)

Mat 23:25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Jesus is saying that their outsides were clean but it hid an inner filth.
 
Mat 23:26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus is telling them worry about the love inside and then it will be easy to clean the outside.  God desires mercy not sacrifice.

That is why earlier Jesus makes the point that they should focus on the weightier matters like mercy but still to do the tithe of mint and anise and cummin.

Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If one only does the issues of discipline thinking they are meriting salvation they would be as the Pharisees but that is not what the Catholic Church teaches.  That is how disciplines differ from doctrines.  You must understand the doctrines and obey them as well for the disciplines to lead you in a proper walk.  

Do you understand what he means? Once his love and forgiveness enters our hearts, HE HAS CLEANED THEM by washing away our sins, Michael. Because HE HAS CLEANED them, our outside will BECOME clean as well.

But that is not what scripture says else Jesus would have told the Pharisees not to worry about the tithe of mint and anise and cummin but He toldthem to do it to.  We are responsible for our own cleaning once we have God's grace in us to cooperate with.  It is called sanctification and it is part of the process of salvation.

[Heidi]

So I guess that when Jesus said; "IT IS FINISHED", what he really meant was "IT IS NOT FINISHED". Oops, I guess he was wrong again, according to Michael. Your interpretation is ALWAYS the OPPOSITE of Jesus's words. It would be very amusing if it weren't so sad.

You have also just shown us who your God is, as if i didn't know. "If the church tells me to stand on my right foot, I would do it..." But if JESUS tells you NOT call call anyone 'father' you WILLl! At least you've finally admitted who your HOLY FATHER is. We're FINALLY getting to the truth. Again, this is very sad, Michael. I'll pray that you receive the Holy Spirit someday so you'll know who your REAL teacher is and who your REAL HOLY FATHER is. But as long as you're loyal to the pope instead of Jesus you will never enter heaven because the pope cannot get you there. "A man cannot serve two masters." Sorry. If you truly want to be saved read the ONLY person who has the words of eternal life. You have clearly shown that you don't value them as much as the catholic doctrine.

[michael_legna]

So I guess that when Jesus said; "IT IS FINISHED", what he really meant was "IT IS NOT FINISHED". Oops, I guess he was wrong again, according to Michael. Your interpretation is ALWAYS the OPPOSITE of Jesus's words. It would be very amusing if it weren't so sad.

No my definition of IT is different from yours Heidi.  If you want to claim my definition is wrong show me in scripture where the IT in this verse is defined.

You have also just shown us who your God is, as if i didn't know. "If the church tells me to stand on my right foot, I would do it..."

Just following the instructions of God's word in the Holy Scriptures...

Heb 13:17  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

[Heidi]

Oh, so now we're getting into what the definition of "is" is, as Bill Clinton put it. It won't do any good to show you what Jesus means by "it is finished" because you don't believe His words anyway, Michael. Since your interpretations rely on believing the OPPOSITE of what Jesus says, you can justfiy any interpretation you want to yourself. You can no more understand Jesus's words than atheists can believe in God. Until you're interested in what's true and what's not true, you will continue to twist Christ's words around any which way you want. The bottom line is that when you die, you will find out just EXACTLY what He means. Since you're more interested in twisting Christ's words instead of understanding them as written, then there is nothing anyone can do to help you. Your life is in God's hands, not mine.  

[michael_legna]

It won't do any good to show you what Jesus means by "it is finished" because you don't believe His words anyway, Michael.

So this means you cannot find any scripture to back up your weird doctrine in this instance?

Yes Heidi I want to know what IT means in this instance and I want the scriptures to define it instead of rely on man.

You claim the Bible has everythign we need to know (even if you couldn't prove it) so it should have the definition of IT.

By the way how do you know that the Bible says EVERYTHING we need to know?  

That sounds like something we need to know - so you must have got that from the Bible, since something we need to know is part of EVERYTHING we need to know.  

Where in the Bible does it say that it says EVERYTHING we need to know?

[Heidi]

No, I get tired of throwing Jesus's words where they will be trampled on. But if you want me to spoon-feed you, I will. If you do not believe that IT IS FINISHED, then you can ONLY BELIEVE that you have to EARN your way to heaven, is that not correct? How else will it be finished?

[michael_legna]

If you do not believe that IT IS FINISHED, then you can ONLY BELIEVE that you have to EARN your way to heaven, is that not correct?

No that is not correct.  That is your problem your mind cannot grasp anymore than two alternatives at a time.

A third alternative is that what was finished was the offer of the gift, what we have to do is accept it.  But accepting a gift is not earning it.

If you offer a helium balloon to a child and tell them to hold on tight and not let go, and they accept it and hold on tight and not let go just as you told them how to accept it, do you think that child earned the helium balloon?  If you do then you are one cruel minded parent.  The obedience that the child did out of love for you is in no way earning the gift.

How else will it be finished?

It will be finished when we accept the gift (in the manner the Gospel tells us to) and continue to hold on to it and endure so that at the final judgement when God asks about the gift He gave us we can say yep here it is.   Then it is finished.