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Author Topic: FAITH + WORKS For Salvation = DAMNSTION!  (Read 12063 times)
michael_legna
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2004, 10:13:08 AM »



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FAITH + WORKS For Salvation = DAMNSTION!
BY Cecil Spivey

(A STUDY IN JAMES 2)

Where we see Spivey build his own strawman just to knock it down.  How impressed we are when someone builds a purposely weak argument just to make themselves look powerful.

Quote
“Do you believe a man is saved by grace?”

“Yes, certainly, However, works are also essential.”

Strawman #1 - Who would ever say such a thing no one teaches works verses grace the issue is works and faith verses faith alone.  Garce underlies all of those options it is not opposed to, nor does it need to be added to as its function is different than faiths, or works, or faith and works, function.


Quote
“ Then you do not believe a man is saved by grace alone?”

“How can I, when James the 2nd chapter informs us that “faith without works is DEAD?”

Strawman #2 – The issue isn't grace alone as Spivey wants to make it look, it is the man made doctrine of faith alone that it the issue.  No one who questions faith alone would ever question that for its purpose grace functions alone.

Quote
So argued the water-works Salvationist. And so argue all who contend that sinners must submit to physical ordinances and obey the moral laws of God in order to finally, at last, maybe perhaps make it to heaven. When hard pressed to prove there doctrine, they invariably flee to James 2:14-26 for defense. Here all who believe in Christ + works for salvation find common ground.

No that is not how the water-works Salvationist argues – it is how Spivey wants to present their argument so he can more easily assail it since a true representation of their argument is unassailable.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2004, 10:25:52 AM »


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The war on this forum between works & faith seems to be bewteen those who have born again of the spirit and those who have been told by the catholic church that the leaders of their church are the only ones who have been born again of the spirit.

That is not ture and you know it Heidi.  You have been corrected many times in your errors of understanding of the Catholic Church such that it is clear to all you have no idea what they teach.  They certainly do not teach that the leaders of the Catholic Church are the only ones who have been born of the Holy Spirit.  Where do you get this drivel - you must make it up.

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One member said that we're all born again of the spirit, but only the leaders in the church are protected from error.

If you think you can get away from our agreement by not referring to me by name that is just dishonest much like the lies you tell.  If you are going to claim people have said things at least have the courage to quote people instead of behaving like the national Inquirer.

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Apparently the Holy Spirit in the rest of us isn't strong enough to "lead us into all truth."

Well what is apparetn to you and your faulty logic is not apparent to others.  This issue has nothing to do with the strength of the Holy Spirit it has to do with the promises as stated in the Bible.  Nowhere does scripture promise to protect each individuals interpretation of scripture from error.  If it did then you would not have the Holy Spirit in you since you have repeatedly errored in your interpretations.

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It is no coincidence that the ones who believe in works, not faith, are catholics, and the ones who don't are born again of the spirit.

Another lie about the Catholic Church - will you ever stop?  The Catholic Church believes in faith Heidi, and claims it is required for salvation - it is faith alone that they do not accept because it is taught nowhere in the scriptures.

Quote
But in reality they look to the church for answers instead of Christ alone.

That is because the scriptures tell us to.

1Ti 3:15  But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2004, 11:29:44 AM »

Heidi,

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Apparently the Holy Spirit in the rest of us isn't strong enough to "lead us into all truth."

First, you have never been led to all Truth. You are taking a text out of context here and applying to you personally in the 21st century. This is in opposition to II Pet 1:20-21.
It is in reference to the Apostles as a group. The Apostles did not even receive it individually but as a group. That is why it is taught the same by all apostles. It was entirely given to them and they have imparted it the the faithful of that day and generations have done so to this day. That it has endured and has been keep faithfully by the faithful is a testament to the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit working in Christ's Church, which is His Body.

You constantly say that you are led by the Holy Spirit. You are led only in understanding, not in interpretation. There is a vast difference. It was once given. All of it was once given. The faith, and its practice. It is THE CHURCH WHICH HAS IT, not individuals. The CHURCH IS CHRIST.
Christ is Head and the authority. The Bible is not the authority, but Christ who gave it and its interpretation through the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.

Quote
But in reality they look to the church for answers instead of Christ alone.

You also keep saying that the difference between us is that we (Michael and I) believe in the Church and that you, in particular, believe in the Holy Spirit. That the Church is wrong based on your interpretation and you are correct. Leaving personalities aside, Scripture clearly says that the Church OF Christ is the only guardian of the Truth. That Church is Christ Himself. So you are in effect saying that Christ is not correct.
Christ is the Church, the Holy Spirit is given to its members who reside in that Body, and as the guiding force, lives that Truth in the faithful.  
That is why I can say with conviction that I believe in ONE HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. Why? because it is Christ Himself.

Also, your assessment that the war on the forum is between those of faith & works is incorrect as well.

It is more correct to say it is about faith and those who believe in faith alone. It is not about faith and works. Faith IS works.
If you learn anything, you aught to learn how to represent another's views, even though you disagree with them.  It is very rare that you even attempt to restate it correctly as stated by others.
Is it possible that you actually do not understand what others are saying or explaining.

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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2004, 08:41:13 PM »

That is simply a blatant lie, Sojourner. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus! He was the ONLY member of his group who did. Jesus said; "I tell you the truth, unless A MAN (not a group) is born of water and the spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Paul also says this when he says; "The MAN without the spirit cannot accept the things that come from the spirit of god, for they are foolishenss to him, and he cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned. Your made-up gospel is very creative but coming from your imagination instead of the bible. I DEFINITELY believe the bible before I believe you!  
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michael_legna
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2004, 09:04:41 PM »


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That is simply a blatant lie, Sojourner.

What is a lie?  Try quoting something someone has said before you accuse them of lying.  If you do it like I have always done with you (quoting your obvious lies) then people might be able to follow your rantings.  As it is, no one can tell what of the things sojurner has said you think to be a lie.

Quote
Jesus said; "I tell you the truth, unless A MAN (not a group) is born of water and the spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

But yet you want to focus only on part of that statement the faith and ignore that there is a requirement to also be baptized by water too (which is a works).  It is bad enough when you form doctine without considering other verses or even responding to them when they are pointed out by others; but when you ignore portions of the very verse you choose to prove a point.

Quote
Paul also says this when he says; "The MAN without the spirit cannot accept the things that come from the spirit of god, for they are foolishenss to him, and he cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned.

Once again you don't quote the word of God but insert your own rendition of it to make it say what you want it to.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This verse merely says what we have been saying all along - that we cannot seek or find or understand God without His grace.  It does not say that it is the Spirit alone which makes him understand - that is just your extension of it, done completely without basis.
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2004, 10:55:48 PM »

Heidi,

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That is simply a blatant lie, Sojourner. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus! He was the ONLY member of his group who did. Jesus said;
Well, you had better go back to that chapter again and pay very close attention to verse 17, Acts 9.
Do you equate the calling or messages from God as receiving the Holy Spirit?

Possibly you aught to check Acts 2: 16-17.
Also, the only time a group was given the Holy Spirit as a group is in John 20:22. This was also before Pentacost when the world was given the Holy Spirit.
When and how  do individuals recieve the Holy Spirit?
II Cor 1:21-22,  Eph 1:13;I John 2:20,27; 3:24; 4:13. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:6.
All Truth given to the Apostles - John 14:26, John 16:13-15, John 15:26.

All Truth was given to the Apostles and it was passed on to the believing faithful. We as faithful receive understanding of this Truth  via the Holy Spirit as members of the Church which is the guardian of this Truth. We recieve it individually only when we become members of His Church. Baptism and chrismation. The verses above bear this out.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2004, 11:06:10 PM by sojourner » Logged
Heidi
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2004, 11:55:58 AM »

You poor soul, Sojourner, You have been brainwashed by the catholic church to believe that THEY and they alone HAVE the Holy Spirit because the apostles did. That is not only absurd, but the common thread of all cult leaders because it works! All cult leaders claim that they and they alone have the Holy Spirit and some people believe them!  That is NOT what Jesus teaches at all!

What do you think the Holy Spirit does, Sojourner? anything? How do you think Paul ALL OF A SUDDEN believed that Jesus was the Son of God? Do you even think? Who do you think Jesus said our COUNSELOR-THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is? The CATHOLIC CHURCH? How do you think we have the ability to discern truth from fiction? From the tooth faiy? just a guess? Guessing is NOT faith, it's DOUBT. You have ZERO faith that the Holy Spirit has ANY powers at all! But the catholic church is INFALLIBLE!!!! Power, glory belongs to the "special" not to the poor in spirit! You poor soul. I can only pray that one day you will receive the Holy Spirit inside of you and you will know EXACTLY how it changes eahc individual heart. That is something the catholic church CANNOT do for you.
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2004, 03:28:00 PM »

Heidi,

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You have been brainwashed by the catholic church to believe that THEY and they alone HAVE the Holy Spirit because the apostles did....That is NOT what Jesus teaches at all!

That clearly does not align with your personal view. But you need to stand back of your accusation here. Prove either you correct or the catholic church, that is the Orthodox catholic church is in error.
In truth, I have been brainwashed by the Holy Spirit. He lead me to accept the One True Church and I excercised my will in choosing Him this day. Then I permitted the Church to teach me what that Gospel actually was as it was given to the Apostles.
Sorry, Heidi, but that is precisely what Jesus taught. Just read your Bible, but then if one does not have the Holy Spirit, discernment is not available, that might be your problem. Did you ever consider it, Heidi?

Quote
What do you think the Holy Spirit does, Sojourner? anything? How do you think Paul ALL OF A SUDDEN believed that Jesus was the Son of God? Do you even think? Who do you think Jesus said our COUNSELOR-THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is? The CATHOLIC CHURCH? How do you think we have the ability to discern truth from fiction? From the tooth faiy? just a guess? Guessing is NOT faith, it's DOUBT. You have ZERO faith that the Holy Spirit has ANY powers at all! But the catholic church is INFALLIBLE!!!!
I have already clearly answered the first part. But as usual you will continue to run your broken record over, and over, and over again. Are these pat answers because no matter what post, any thread, they seem to be the same tired phrases which have long been disproved.

Not actually the Catholic Church. But yes, the catholic church, the one that started with the Apostles. It is still alive today. Check it out for yourself.

We have the ability to discern truth from fiction because the Holy Spirit has preserved that Truth in His Church and thus we don't need to formulate new gospel. We just need to divide the scriptures. One can easily discern false from truth this way. Why do you think I can easily say you are incorrect. I have 2000 years of the same teaching, same practice, same faith, with the same Holy Spirit that has authenticated His faithful working of that Truth in the faithful and martyrs.
How about showing me wrong. Prove your personal view is actually the Gospel once given to the Apostles.

Show me from scripture how you develop your doctrine of the Holy Spirit? the Church? How you understand the Incarnation? Your Christology?
It probably would still be your personal interpretion but I at least would have some new arguments to see instead of your tired, false understandings.

Since you have not proven anything, I'll stick with the catholic Church (Orthodox) to lead me. Christ is better than you leading any day.
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2004, 04:20:09 PM »

Quote from Heidi:
Quote
Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus!

Uhh, no he didn't....he received it 3 days later. He suffered blindness for 3 days, and then received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 9:3  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Acts 9:6  And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Acts 9:9  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 9:17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 9:18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2004, 05:25:26 AM »

You poor soul, Sojourner, You have been brainwashed by the catholic church to believe that THEY and they alone HAVE the Holy Spirit because the apostles did. That is not only absurd, but the common thread of all cult leaders because it works! All cult leaders claim that they and they alone have the Holy Spirit and some people believe them!  That is NOT what Jesus teaches at all!

What do you think the Holy Spirit does, Sojourner? anything? How do you think Paul ALL OF A SUDDEN believed that Jesus was the Son of God? Do you even think? Who do you think Jesus said our COUNSELOR-THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is? The CATHOLIC CHURCH? How do you think we have the ability to discern truth from fiction? From the tooth faiy? just a guess? Guessing is NOT faith, it's DOUBT. You have ZERO faith that the Holy Spirit has ANY powers at all! But the catholic church is INFALLIBLE!!!! Power, glory belongs to the "special" not to the poor in spirit! You poor soul. I can only pray that one day you will receive the Holy Spirit inside of you and you will know EXACTLY how it changes eahc individual heart. That is something the catholic church CANNOT do for you.

That is something the catholic church CANNOT do for you.

Amen Sister, Amen

Your friend and brother

Brother Love Smiley

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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2004, 07:39:45 AM »

Sojounrer,
The Holy spirit HAS PRESERVED THE TRUTH IN THE CHURCH? So why has the church changed its mind in regard to not reading the mass in Latin? In 1850, why did Pope Leo suddenly ADD to the bible and declare Mary a virgin all of her life? If they were infallible then every teaching they gave from the beginning would still be used to day, would it not? The bible CANNOT be added to or subtracted from. So why does the infallible CHURCH change its mind? Weren't they right to begin with?
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2004, 09:25:55 AM »


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Sojounrer,
The Holy spirit HAS PRESERVED THE TRUTH IN THE CHURCH? So why has the church changed its mind in regard to not reading the mass in Latin?

Heidi you are so confused over what the Church teaches you cannot even identify it yet you still hate - how sad.

The celebrating the Mass in Latin is not a matter of doctrine -so it was never an issue of infallibility - go learn more about what this authority is before you run off half informed spreading hate.  The Church has changed its mind over many issue that are not related to doctrine.  The Holy Spirit was not promised to protect the Church in these matters as they are of little consequence and affect no ones salvation.

Quote
In 1850, why did Pope Leo suddenly ADD to the bible and declare Mary a virgin all of her life?

Actually you have it all wrong again Heidi.  Do you ever research anything before you shoot off your mouth?

There was no Pope Leo in 1850 (Pope Pius reigned from 1846 to 1878) and the perpetual Virginity of Mary is not a Dogma of the Church.

The Catholic Church has proclaimed 3 Marian Dogmas during its history.

The first dogma, "Mary, the Mother of God," was proclaimed by the Council of Ephesus in AD 431.

The second dogma, the "Immaculate Conception," was proclaimed in 1854 by Pope Pius IX in Ineffabilit Deus. It proclaimed that the Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved immune from all stain of original sin. (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 491)

The third dogma, the "Assumption of Mary," was proclaimed in 1950 by Pope Pius XII in Lumen Gentium. It proclaimed that the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of Lords and conqueror of sin and death. (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 966)

However the issue of Mary's Perpetual Virginity has been taught by the Church since the ealriest times as evidenced by the tract entitled - The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary St. Jerome Against Helvidius.  This tract appeared about A.D. 383, when both Jerome and Helvidius were at Rome, and Damasus was Pope.  There are also earlier references by Tertullian and others.

Quote
If they were infallible then every teaching they gave from the beginning would still be used to day, would it not?

No, only those teachings related to doctrine and they are in fact all still taught today.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2004, 12:24:15 PM by michael_legna » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2004, 07:11:28 PM »

Heidi,

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Sojounrer,
The Holy spirit HAS PRESERVED THE TRUTH IN THE CHURCH? So why has the church changed its mind in regard to not reading the mass in Latin? In 1850, why did Pope Leo suddenly ADD to the bible and declare Mary a virgin all of her life? If they were infallible then every teaching they gave from the beginning would still be used to day, would it not? The bible CANNOT be added to or subtracted from. So why does the infallible CHURCH change its mind? Weren't they right to begin with?

Heidi, how many times have I stated that I am Orthodox? Did you ever attempt, not just ot acknowledge this fact, but even do a little research to find what that Chruch actually is and possible where it might differ from the Roman Catholic Church.
What you said here does not apply to me in the least, except the very first one dealing with the Virginity of Mary. All the rest are Roman and not Orthodox.
And, absolutely, yes, the Orthodox has not changed the faith since the beginning.
That is as far as I will go on that for now.
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2004, 10:10:46 PM »

That is something the catholic church CANNOT do for you.

Amen Sister, Amen

Your friend and brother

Brother Love Smiley

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No one ever said that just you brother. Making statemenst that no one did to pursue your own anti-catholic agenda. Not very Christian in bearing false witness
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2004, 12:07:19 AM »

Brother love knows what Jesus says and that the catholic church says the opposite. "A man cannot serve two masters." We have only ONE HOLY FATHER and He is in heaven. Which master do you serve, Lion? God or the pope? You cannot serve both.
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