Spiritual Gifts

[Petro]

4JC,

One thing I did make clearer, is that;

I don't worry about those that spesak in tongues, since I feel I understsand this gift well enough and am comfortable enough to say I am able to discern whether it is of God or not, and the test is;  is it being excercised according to the Lords commandment (1 Cor 14:37-40)

So if it is from God it will subjected to the Holy Spirit, and it will be excerscised decently and ion order.

As I stated in another post elsewhere, a church I visited in Oregon, was praying for the gift to be excercised in accordance to scripture, but in over one year of praying about it, no one has stepped up to the plate, and has spoken in tongues , to my knowledge.

So, regardless of my undertanding of this or not, if it be of God, it will occurr and we will know if we are there.

So in the spirit of verse 39,  I simply give it room to manifest itself, and I believe this is the way it ought to be viewed by all Christians.

Then again this is only my viewpoint...

Blessings
Petro

[4JC]

Hi Petro,

I hear what you're saying.  
 
So many things to say, I don't know where to begin. I think I'll start with this and see if you agree or disagree.

13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We have two Greek verbs being used here.

katargeo This is the Greek verb used to describe what will happen to prophecy and knowledge.

pauo This is the Greek verb being used to describe what will happen to tongues.

=============

katargeo means to "reduce to inactivity" or to "abolish" Both forms of the verb in verse 8 , and in verse 10, are passive; that is, something or someone will cause them to stop. That something is the coming of the Perfect.

pauo means "to stop, to come to an end". Which when used of persons, indicates intentional, voluntary action upon oneself. Used of inanimate objects it indicates reflexive, self-causing action. The cause comes from within; it is built in.

So we have two different ways of these three gifts being stopped.

The gifts of prophecy and knowledge will stop when the Perfect comes.

The gift of tongues will cause itself to stop.

Note; in 13:9-13, tongues are not mentioned. This, by itself may not seem like much, but when you put it together with what was said above it starts to speak loudly. Also note the highlighted parts.

13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (no tongues)

13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Note; that only the verb katargeo is used here.)

13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Oh well, that's all I have time for today.

God bless
4JC

[4JC]

Hi Petro,

And actually I have narrowed this done to these two possibilities,  that the perfect is;

Both the glorified state, and the perfected body of Christ, of which all the members of the church are.

I've always had a hard time making the connection with the perfect as it is used in 13:10 and the perfected body of Christ. Usually I need to be totally frustrated, exhausting all possibilities, and on the verge of giving up, then, that's when God reveals something. It's almost like He wants maximum effort first. So I'll keep trying, if there's something there, He will show me eventually.

I agree "the Perfect" often has the meaning of maturity or completion, but to say it's the perfected Body of Christ still presents problems for me. F presents a problem for this theory when it applies to individuals or the whole body, maybe E fits because in the Church, when its individually gifted people come together as a whole, they should be, as Christ's body, if you will, if that's what you're trying to say in terms of "face to face", but I don't see how F "fully know" can fit this. Also, wouldn't the Church reaching maturity or Perfection then result in its completion, resulting then in the Rapture? And if so we still have the problem of prophecy during the Tribulation and Kingdom. It takes me an hour just to get into the right frame of mind so I can study this lol. There are so many angles, you know? Like I said,  F  still seems to me like a major hurdle for this position to overcome. Maybe it works with the combination of both positions as I quoted you saying above, but I'm not fully grasping how it all ties together when applying both. I'll keep studying and see what else I can come up with.

God bless
4JC

[Petro]

4JC,

I am sorry, I hadn't answered earlier, as I was debating if I should comment on the subject, and polute, thge work you have been bringing forth fro the scriptures, with my own ideas and thoughts, I have to say, alot of what I have worked up is not totally connected and I would rather not put forth my own theories.

So i thought I would just share the similarities of my ideas of why and what led me to look closer at the theory, that "the perfect" could very well be the Body of Christ, and of course include the individual members.

The most glaring truth for me was, that the scriptures speak of "babes in Christ", "being born of incorruptible by the Word of God", by the "will of God",  "drinking milk", "solid food" an so on.

What really got my attention, was that babies, speak, (not in tongues but close to it) and as they grow, they even communicate with their mothers, by speaking when noone else even understands them, their mother does.

They cannot eat solid food, Paul even spaeks ofm this about new born christians at 1 Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12-13, 1 Pet 2:2.

The Christian, as a babe, who drinks milk is unskilled in the use of the Word, and maturity to some extent, comes when he is able to eat solid food, which excersizes his sense, and eventually leads to full blown maturity, while one is going thruough the process others follow and others are ahead in the growth.

When Jesus, prayed to the Father, he said this;

Jhn 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Clearly this speaking of the Body of Christ.

So far I have to agree with you, it is a state of perfection, and it may not be attained in this life.

I say this for this reason;

Heb 11
38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

On a personal level, it may be possible that individually one  may live perfectly before the Lord, in Christ, having all subjected to His perfect will, however, because of verse 40 of Heb 11, it cannot be the perfect permanent state.

This is why I said I don't discount tongues as being viable today.

Because 1 Cor 14;

2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This clearly speaks to me of onje praying to God, since this is exacly what we do, when we pray to God, we speak to him, as our heavenly father and He speaks to us thru His Word.

And prayer has not ceased..a baby, eventually ceases speaking baby talk, because he comes to knowledge in commanding his native language.

As for Prophecies, unfortunately the KJV, has not interpreted this passage in the best possible light, consider the English-Greek Interlinear, version;

8  Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall be done away;......

To me this simply means they shall be fulfilled, and future prohecies will not be prophecied no longer.

This verse is translated verbatim in the New American Standard Prophecy Edition,and the Greek supports it perfectly.

As for Knowledge, the question is has it been done away with??

My answer would be NO, since many are still coming to the knowledge of God.

The Prophecy of Jer 31, at verse;

31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


This prohecy is still being fulfilled today, John said;

1 Jhn 5
20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Refer  (Eph 1:17, 1 Pet 1:3)

As long as the Holy Spirit is bringing men to the knowledge of Him, who takes away sin, it would appear to me knowledge has not been done away with.

What other knowledge could verse 8, of 1 Cor 14, be speaking of??  

Paul said;

Phil 3
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

And this after He had met HIM on the road to Damascus.

We know Him, now by FAITH, and at His comming, we will know Him Face to Face..

Blessings,

Petro

PS, I really enjoyed your posts, they show a hunger to mine the word of God, for the nuggets of the truth, which lead to Godly wisdom.

Praise Him.  And NEVER give up....hope, it is given to us to know the mysteries of the Kingdom..


God Bless.

[Petro]

The second contender, for the title "The Perfect" is LOVE.

Love is an essential characteristic of God, and comes only as a gift to the world. (Jhn 3:16)

Not long after the fall at the garden, we read the Cain slew Able his brother.  The fall was such that perfectlove as manifested by God was affected by the sin, and clearly we see it brought on a spiritual death of Adam and Eve,  as well as the sacrifical death of the animals which provided the skins as covernings.

Can Love be that which is "Perfect"??

There is that possibility.

The problem which I have encountered is its connection to Knowledge.

No knowledge is necessary to love perfectly, if one has been given the gift of perfect love.

Love should be the motivating factor in giving out the Gospel of Life.

This is my own opinion, but I put it forth as something which may be considered for further study..


Blessings,

Petro

PS  True Godly Knowledge with regard to my previous post, is attained by revelation, so that coming to the truth requires personal revelation from God.

And this is Gods will, that all men everywhere know HIS WILL.

Col 1
9  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

[Petro]

4JC,

More solid food to chew on..

With reagrd to the Lords prayer;

Jhn 17
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Notice these verses;

Heb 10
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Paul writes;

Heb 12
23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[/b]


1 Jhn 2
5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 Jhn 4
12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.


Can't help but understand Love is the key, in perfection the man of God, notice Heb 12, above the spirits of just men made perfect and the church of the first born,  (whose names?) which are written in heaven.

Blessings, again

Petro

[Brother Love]

Those of us who teach and believe the Gospel of the Grace of God, do not believe anyone has any Spiritual Gifts, in this age of Grace. We have the C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Word of God "THE BIBLE."

Grace & Peace

Brother Love

[3wells]

It's the C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Word of God, that is, "THE BIBLE" that teaches us that we do have spiritual gifts.

What's the point of having a C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Bible if you just ignore what it says?

[Brother Love]

It's the C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Word of God, that is, "THE BIBLE" that teaches us that we do have spiritual gifts.

What's the point of having a C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Bible if you just ignore what it says?

LOL

I dont ignore the Word, and if you want to pretend you have some gifts go ahead, as the world says, if it feels good do it.

Brother Love

[3wells]

I dont ignore the Word.

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!

[Ambassador4Christ]

I dont ignore the Word.

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!

 

[Brother Love]

I dont ignore the Word.

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!

The O-N-L-Y Gift you have is E-T-E-R-N-A-L Life and thats only if your a believer.

Now believe that player.

Brother Love

[3wells]

I dont ignore the Word.

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!

The O-N-L-Y Gift you have is E-T-E-R-N-A-L Life and thats only if your a believer.

Now believe that player.

Brother Love

You want me to believe something that contradicts scripture?

Noooo thank you!

This I believe:

"He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."

(What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
(Eph 4:8-14)

"For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Rom 11:29)

"Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." (1 John 5:10)

[Ambassador4Christ]

I dont ignore the Word.

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!

The O-N-L-Y Gift you have is E-T-E-R-N-A-L Life and thats only if your a believer.

Now believe that player.

Brother Love

You want me to believe something that contradicts scripture?

Noooo thank you!

This I believe:

"He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."

(What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
(Eph 4:8-14)

"For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Rom 11:29)

"Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." (1 John 5:10)

 Keep pretending 3wells, someday I pray you will understand the Word of God.

Grace & Peace

[Sower]

Whitehorse --
I believe that when the scriptures were completed, the canon was closed and that this gift is no longer in use. My understanding is that these were known languages used for evangelizing and spreading the gospel.

That is my understanding also, Whitehorse, and it is consistent with the facts of Scripture.

(1) "Tongues" in Scripture is the word often used as a translation for "languages" (Greek glossai and dialektos are both words for "language").   So when the apostles, who were Galileans and normally spoke Aramaic, began to proclaim "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11), the Holy Spirit listed the variety of languages in verses 9-11, and as you can see there are about 16 different languages which were spoken supernaturally on the day of Pentencost.

(2) The gift of speaking foreign lanuages supernaturally was not given to absolutely every believer as an evidence of "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" (modern Pentecostal teaching) but was given as a gift to those who were chosen to receive this gift ("Do all speak with tongues?" Rhetorically asked by Paul in 1 Cor. 12:30.  The obvious answer is "No").

(3) Tongues was "the least" of the spiritual gifts -- First [in importance and order of listing] apostles, then prophets, then teachers, then miracle workers, then healers, helpers, rulers, and finally "diversities of tongues", followed by interpreters (1 Cor. 12:28-31).  Love [agape] was and is God's greatest gift, since it is God Himself (for God is love) [1 Cor. 13:13].

(4) Paul would rather have spoken 5 intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 unintelligible words in a foreign language [even though supernaturally given] (1 Cor. 14:19).

(5) Tongues [languages, not babbling in glossolalia] as a gift would CEASE, as would prophecies and supernatural knowledge (1 Cor. 13:8-9). When could they cease?  When that which was in part [partially written down revelations which ultimately became the New Testament] became "perfect' [or complete] at the end of the apostolic age.  The apostle John wrote the last book of the New Testament and sealed up supernatural revelations at the end of this book (Rev.22:18-19).  When the New Testament was completed around 90 A.D. Paul's prophecy regarding tongues, prophecies, and supernatural knoweldge became a reality.

(6) The earliest church leaders after the apostles [Apostolic Fathers] confirmed this by making a clear and deliberate distinction between their writings [which resemble Scripture to a remarkable degree] and the writings of the apostles.  The apostles themselves acknowledged each other's writings as "Scripture" [Divine revelation] (see 2 Pet. 3:15-17). [Also, none of them mentions tongue-speaking in the post-apostolic chruches].

A complete Bible precludes further Divine revelations, while the end of the apostolic age precludes tongues.  Today's tongues bear no resemblance to those of Scripture, and the practice of "tongue-speaking" today flouts the commandments of Scripture (women speaking in public assemblies, speaking without interpreters, etc.).  Note carefully that today's "glossolalia" [babbling in a human "pre-language akin to a baby's] is admitted to be different from "glossai" -- speaking a foreign language fluently and supernaturally without having learned it.  Linguistic research into modern tongue-speaking has established this beyond the shadow of a doubt.

True spirituality is not evidenced by "tongue-speaking" but by the fruits of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  Tongues are not among the gifts listed in Eph. 4:11 or Rom. 12:4-8  or 1 Pet. 4:10-11, since they were not designed for the edification of the saints but were meant to be a "sign' to unbelieving Jews (1 Cor. 14:20-22).  No spiritual gift was given for self-edification (1 Cor. 14:4-5) which Paul rebukes soundly, but for the edification of the whole Body of Christ. Yet tongue-speakers talk about edifying themselves, as though God really approves of this.